Eagledad

Hi all To me, for scouts to benefit and grow from the Eight Methods, they have to be responsible for them in the program. Each scout is different and he needs some methods more than others at different times during his personal scouting experiences. The responsibility for the adults is the Aims and to insure the methods are part of the program, and guide the scouts as they struggle in their experiences of the methods. I found that when adults push their explanation of methods on the scouts without the scouts experiencing the methods, the scout has less desire to learn. I think our discussions on uniform are a perfect example because we all think we know the value of the uniform, but if it were really that simple, then why do we have so many discussions? No matter what we think of the uniform or any other method, the scouts will likely gain their values and opinions from their experience. Scouts need more than just our lofty words to be convienced. Another example of letting scout experience the responsibility of the Methods is the Patrol Method. One of the big results of the old Wood Badge course were adults going back to there troops and forcing scouts to run a carbon copy of the Fox patrol they experience during the course. The adults focus was not character, fitness or citizenship, it was the perfect camp site. The Patrol Method is an experience of independent approaches to leadership, followship, Teamwork and Teambuilding. But many of the adults didnt allow the scouts their own independent experience because it didnt resemble the Wood Badge experience. When your force a youth to dress like you want him to dress, or run a patrol like you want the patrol run or plan a campout out only the way you want to camp, he not only starts getting bored, he may start disrespecting the method, and the adults and maybe even the scouting program. We want growth and that comes from giving the scout room to practice the methods so he can find himself from the experience. Its good that the adults know the methods so they can help the scout understand, but really it much more important that the adult understand the aims. That way the adult can always lead the scout to the bigger picture of Fitness, character or citizenship instead of the perfect uniform. If we dont allow the scout to experience, learn and grow from the methods, then we risk that the scout will gain nothing at all. Or even worse, he only gains disrespect. Here are a few ways we tried to make the Methods work. The SM reviews Aims and Methods after every SPL election with both the adults and new PLC. Then the SPL is expected to create his six-month goals for the Troop with the Eight Methods in mind. The PLC makes sure activities on the campouts include the practice of Citizenship, Character and Fitness. As BW said, not all that hard once the scouts get in the habit. At our Council JLTC course, we added a class on Aims and Methods for scout participants and a separate class for their adult Leaders on the last day of the course. Of course that has been taken out with the new course. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Barry, I don't mean to come off as sandpaper. I'm just not a "flowery" word type. Sorry if it offends you, but that's the way I am!

>>I really don't think that whatever is posted is going to change the hearts and minds of those who are committed to the "We don't do it that way" train of thought, but there are some new forum members who are new to Scouting and there are us old folks who enjoy exercising the little gray cells.

>>What is wrong with a discussion where about something that some of us feel is at the very heart of what we are doing?

I think it's fine to learn more about this young man, but how about being less formal. Ask him to sit and have a coke with you and the SM. What you learn there would probably determine if you want to call his folks. Sounds like you have a good program. Barry

>>kenk, If you explain your son's special needs to the SPL and to the troop, they will understand. I had to explain one of the scouts who has night terror and claustrophobia to them.

>>You mention breaking in boots with a 100 miles of walking. How do you get scouts to do this.. You must have some outstanding motivational techniques.

>>My point is , the average scout should economise somewhere else, not your feet.

Hi all >>Having said this, I must say that in the past year, the troop has moved in the right directions. We've finally come to embrace the patrol method and are in transition now, and are doing a fair to good job on the other six methods. They'll get even better when the other two cylinders are firing as well. I'm hopeful about this troop's future and I am glad to be a part of the change.

Great Oklahoma Sunday All Interesting topic. I wrote about this lastyear after our WB Course. I didn't post it because I wasn't sure how to introduce it to my friends on the forum. I was walking behind most of the participants on one of our warmer Oklahoma WB days as we had to hike about 100 yards to an event. Just a short stroll really, but it was very clear that this was a difficult hike for many of these wonderful scouters. I counted well over half the class that was clearly over weight. But it wasn't just that. At least a third or more smoked. I remember at least half our staff had to take several smoke breaks during our course training sessions. Should we take better care of ourselves as role models? Just a few years ago one popular adult in our District went to a meeting at Philmont. He was overweight, but it was not a big deal because he was just attendig a two day meeting, no activities. During a lunch break some of the adults took a short stroll and this scouter fell over dead from a heart attack. Our district took his loss pretty hard. Of course you don't have to be over weight to have problems. One adult in our troop had a heart attack on our biking campout. He lived only because there was an EMT crew nearby for a local mountain biking race. We had another adult who was clearly out of shape for our Northern Tier trek. He was stubborn and ignored all our request to get in shape. He just couldn't see how canoeing would be that hard. He had a terrible time that really impacted the crew. He was on a Philmont crew the next year with a promise to get in better shape. He didn't finish the trek because another boy was hurt. He later told me he wouldn't have made it anyway and use the boy as an excuss to quit. The boys knew before the trek he was going to be a problem for the crew. As a role model, he failed our scouts. Lucky for us we put three adults on the crew. Just last week I was honored to be asked to bead a few of the Beavers in last years WB course. Two of the smokers I was talking bragged how they had quit because of a new Oklahoma smoking tax. But the conversation led into how to get rid of that 30 lbs. they gained. I guess all of this really got me thinking after the WB course. I'm in pretty good shape, but I've worked out at least three times week for the last 25 years. Is it fair for me to suggest that maybe National should take a more serious look at this subject, I don't know? I was thinking about you laurie. One thing is for sure, boys very much respect those who walk the walk and your actions do just that. I'm sure your scouts admire you for the example you set. Not just now, but also later in their lives. Barry

Check out Red Head. Bass Pro carries them, I'm not sure who else does. You can look at them on there web site. Barry

Hi all My question is why do you feel they need a boost. What are they missing in the program, did you ask? I have found the adults are to quick to propose a solution to a problem they don't understand. In short, most older scouts start to get bored when the program doesn't challenge their maturity. I have yet to see a program with these same problems solved with High Adventure activities. Adding more adventure to the program is always good, but I find giving the older scout more mature responsibilities over the Troop program is what gives them more satifaction. One way of doing this is handing over some of the adult responsibilities to the scouts and turning the adults into their advisers. We started this with our Troop Web Page and then to the news letter. But we moved on to advancement as well. Eventally we had JASMs for advising Grub Masters and Cheer Masters. Small responsibilites really, but in most troops, it's usually adults who advise those positions. Give it to the older scouts. Those are only suggestions toward raising the maturity of your scout responsibilities, but you can think of better ideas, I'm sure. Next, we found that when you dink with the older scouts, there is a ripple effect all the way down to the new scout. Older Scouts are your most effective role models. The more you take them away from the younger scouts, the more you will slow the scouts growth in behavior and leadership development. In most cases, the troop adults usually get more involved, which takes away even more from boy run. So think about that as you develop the older scout program. Finally, I'm one that doesn't like to use age and rank as a method of planning activities. That may work in most cases, but be careful for that gifted 12 year old who has the ability to go hiking with the 15 year olds and so on. In many cases BSA sponsered activities will have a age restriction like Northern Tier or Philmont. But for your troop backpacking trip, have three levels of hikes so that the more mature experinced scouts take the most challenging route while the least experienced scouts go on the easier trail. That way if you get an eleven year old who has hiked the Appalachain trail every year since he was seven, you aren't restricting his experience in your troop. This happen to us with a scout who raced bikes. He was by far the most experienced biker in our Troop and it would have been silly to not let him ride with our older scouts. Your program sounds really goood. Now that your scouts are going through their puberty age, they think differently. That means more like an adult, so your adults needs need to start thinking in that direction. Think less about age and more about maturity. That way you won't restrict your scouts as they grow. Some grow faster than others, don't hold them back. Hope this helps. Barry

Hi All Ive tried to understand this thread all week. Are you saying Fuzzy that since the scout once believed in God, it doesnt matter what he says or believes at the time of his BOR? My son has a friend who was just arrested for making a very stupid choice. Now he and his family have to live with that choice the rest of his life. The scout made a clear and conscious choice to not earn the Eagle, but even after all the post, the boards position isnt clear to me at all. Barry

Hi All I was the Troop Guide of the Beaver patrol a year ago in our Wood Badge SR535 course. I got the honor to present two of those Beavers their beads Saturday night. I must say I think the giving is more fun than the getting and I want to give more. I have a couple Beavers left yet. For the sake of all the Wood Badge Troop Guides out there waiting for you to finish your ticket, HURRY UP! Oh I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

I guess for me, if I as a Scoutmaster I developed the troop to make Eagles, I would have failed all my scouts. I developed our troop to make men of character and integrity. I feel if boy scoutng had started with Eagles in mind, we wouldn't have scouting today. For me, the Eagle is a rank for three percent extra acheivers. Those who wanted, no who needed to go the extra step. But you see, some boys don't have that long to get eagle, some earned the equal honor in other parts or their life. I worked toward a program where all our scouts were expected to be held to the Scout Law and Oath in their future, not just the Eagles. And yes, I have had people in my adult like tell me they expected more from me because I was a boy scout. I also believe we live in a tough time. While parents have always expected a lot from their children, we live in a time where parents are becoming problems in sports, school, and even scouts. My son just did a paper on this at Oklahoma State. He said his research scared him. The parents of our culture are starting to strive for their success through their children. Please don't misunderstand, I don't want to take anything away from the eagle at all, God has more than bless our program with them. But if the eagle scout is to maintain the honor in the community that it has held in the past, we are going to have to get back to honoring the boy scout. We cannot allow the Eagle to replace what was expected of the First Class scout in the past. Remember the image of the scout helping a little old lady across the street? We do not want the image to be replaced with the little old lady first asking if that scout was an Eagle. The Eagle is held in high honor today only because of the high expectation and honor of the Boy Scout yesterday. Build all the scouts to be live by the scout oath and law, and the Eagle will alway fly high. This subject makes me want to tell a story of two men. One is my dad. He was a scout during WWII. There wasn't enough men around to be Scoutmaster, so at age fourteen his troop asked him to be the Scoutmaster. They worked out a way for his grandpa to sign any paper work that required an adult signiture, but dad was the Scoutmaster for two years. Because he was so busy doing that, he didn't get the Eagle like his big brother. He has never regretted the choice. My other friend is a man who had the same kind of situation in a small town in Oklahoma during the 60's. He was also a Scoutmaster at age 14. He got his Eagle and when I asked how, he said several adults worked with him while he staffed at summer camp. Both these men are heros to me. Both represent what I hope is in all my scouts. What I pray for in my sons. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All We had a scout who practiced Black Witchcraft. He was one of those scouts that I once got calls from the police. Truely a very troubled boy from a a very troubled family. He loved our troop because it was an escape from his real life. We liked him a lot also. My advice is approach him honestly like I approached our scout. Explain the concern most folks have with Witchcraft and they think it is evil. I told him that it was not my place to preach or sway him one way or the another. Normally I would suggest talking with the parents, but in this case no. I asked that he consider not talking about his beliefs, but instead just observe everyone in the troop. He will find most of the other scouts aren't out spoken either. Scouting is a great place to watch and learn. Leave it at that and I think your OK. It worked for our scout in the Witchcraft area. I sure wish we could have done more with the rest of his life. Good luck. Barry

Great answers Curtis. Sounds like the program did what is was supposed to do, and you did what your were supposed to do. Looking back on it, I know that scouting help me be a better man, husband and father. Oh and a better scout leader. I don't have the Eagle to show for it like you, only my intergrity. I think the difference between you and I have nothing to prove myself at the begining. Your Eagle has already given you the start. Hey thanks for the thoughtful answers, they were really good. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Sorry to do this to you, BUT there are lots of ways to get where we are going, please don't just try and pin everything on one idea...

>>I really didn't like it back then, but I do think that good has (now that we've finished growing up) it's been good in the long run.

>> So why would we want to put these guys back into the mix where they are always "little grass hopper!.

Hi All Yes, we had some of it in our Troop. I was the butt of a few jokes with some parents that I was anti Eagle because I was quietly aginst the idea. But they loved our program because many of these families had several sons and just about all of them now have their Eagle. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>So, I would plead gently for civilized discourse, and respect for my views as a Christian without the homophobe label. I have no fear of homosexuals, but I am taught by Scripture not to condone sin, either.

Hi All Anarchist has some great stuff. Considering the idea of multiple smaller trailers so a diesel rig isnt required to pull it. Im reaching way back into my gray matter, but I think a trailer heavier than 850lbs empty really needs a truck size vehicle to pull it when loaded. While multiple trailers does require additional storage and security requirements, they also give you more options of including cars and mini vans. The second largest Troop in our district (120 scouts) owns five 6x10 steel trailers. They grab only what they need for the number of scouts going on an outing. We have on several occasions needed both our trailers because the Troop and high adventure crew were on separate outings at the same time. Consider steel over aluminum. Our steel trailer is stronger, lighter and cheaper for the quality than our aluminum. Seems like aluminum would be lighter, but they need plywood walls to protect the aluminum walls from shifting cargo, steel doesnt. Consider wood floors because they are easier to replace than rusted steel floors. Consider 15 inch wheels because smaller wheels have a higher risk of burning out bearings. Consider mounting the spare tire inside your trailer to prevent theft. We like it mounted high up on the door. High so it doesnt take up cargo space and on, or near, the door so you dont have to empty the trailer to get to it. The company from which we bought our steel trailer liked this idea so much, they are now offering this option to all their customers. The 6 ft. wide is a lot easier to pull than the 7 ft. for most cars with stock mirrors. The wheel distance on our 7 ft. trailer is wider than my Suburban. Consider getting it as tall as you can so you can stand up strait. Consider a trailer that has the axle mounted slightly aft of center so that the trailer doesnt tip up when you enter it unhooked from the vehicle. You will understand what I mean when you go look at trailers. Consider getting electrical hookups that fit all your towing vehicles. There are two popular types(cant remember what they are called) for trailers of this size. We keep both hookups in a bag in the trailer. Those are a few of the lessons we have learned the last 14 or so years. Barry

This is normal for this age. There are a lot of changes going on in his life. He is getting away from the age of hanging with groups to feel good about himself. Now he starting to look beyound acceptance in the group to acceptance in the the world. His emotions are starting to get mixed up and now he doesn't want to do things just because someone says so. He is growing into a man and the urges that come with that are independent thinking. He wants purpose to his actions and scouting is getting in the way of that. This is when I ask parents to push just enough. Enough to keep him active without stepping to much into his space. Beg, make deals or even give money, but keep him in the program because in most cases, this will only last about year. Once you get through that, he will feel a belonging with the program again, provided the program is mature for him. And that is important. He needs a man size responsibility to feel good about himself. The uniform is a big clue. When we humans get at the age of questioning ourselves and world, we tend to want to discard things that don't make sense. I would expect that your son is protesting in some small way as well by not wearing as expected. He is rebelling and that is how youth at this age challenge others with their questions. Take the challenge and teach him. Sometimes it is you that will learn a lot because maybe you will find he is right. I got my boys through these times by making a deal. I told them that I wouldn't expect them to go to everyone meeting or campout, but they could only one meeting a month, and one camp out every six months or so. This is hard because I was the SM. As for uniform, I got good at explaining the value of it and loyalty of doing the right thing. In most cases, he will have no trouble with the uniform when he reaches 14 or 15. We had two groups go to Philmont last year. It was very clear that the 13 to 14 year olds had little respect compared to the 15 16 year old group. Eventally they grow past it. But your son has a lot on his mind and scouting challenges a lot of that. Give him some room like you have been doing, but don't give in for at least another year. Barry

Good reply anarchist The ASM responsible for Quarter masters called me Saturday night and confessed he felt it was part his fault. He had planned to build the anchor lock for both trailers but just hadn't got to it yet. The reason the thieves didn't get our other trailer was because it had the socket lock you talked about. Unfortunatly the other trailer had an unusual tongue where the socket lock would not work. The cut right through the other lock. Good advise and I will send your post to him. Barry