Eagledad

>>Hey Unc, I agree wit-cha. I've heard the negative comments about young Eagles and in my experience they've always come from adults who were Scouts and didn't make it.

>>That just results in one less Scout. I imagine the following dramatized conversations:

>>Off base because I stick up for a 14 yr old Eagle who really earned it on his own?

Well, as my grandpa use to say, better reel in the hook son, your minnows dead. I respectfully must say I think you guys are way off base. I don't know if any you guys where a Scoutmaster, but while I was a SM, I had to deal with a lot of adults who pushed for a program of older Eagles, and most of these adults were themselves Eagles. They weren't evil or trying to show up non Eagles, they were simply trying to protect the public respect of thier honorable fraternity. Go read Dugs comments on the Eagle post. As for head strong teenagers, my experience is they are no match for the head strong parent who WILL insure their son is an Eagle. Instead of turning this subject into the "revenge of the non-Eagle adults" or something silly like that, let me give you a statistic I've observed. The average age of Eagles in the troop is usually within a year of the average age of the older scouts in the troop. Not very sinister, is it? One of the biggest Troops in our district brags that it also has the most eagles every year, usually around twenty or more. The average age of their Eagles is 14. It's a goo d program ,but what is not said about this troop of 150 scouts is they loose 70 percent of their older scouts by age 15. They really don't have an older boy program as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, another troop in the district had the largest group of older scouts in the Council. About 40 percent of the Troop was 14 or older. The average age of Eagles was mid 16's. They also had a few 14 and 15 year old Eagles to balance their late 17 year old Eagles. So what is the real issue in this discussion? The evil non-eagle scouters out to get even, or a Troop that encourages a fun program that allows the scouts to grow and mature at their rate and that is fun and rewarding all they way to age 18? You see, I don't buy any of this; boys loose interest after age 14 because of gas, girls and, well gas. OK, I liked fast cars. I dated my wife in a 73 Trans Am with Crager wheels. Anyway, I digress. The best troop program is one that pushes the boy to do his best. The problem with a troop that doesn't allow young eagles is that their close mindedness likely limits all the boys in their dreams and ambitions. It's one thing to have a program where scouts are so busy having fun in the Eight methods that they are slow to earn Eagle. It's a different matter when a troop puts a bottom age limit on their program. They may claim it's all in the name of character, but the problem is the adults define the character. So instead of bashing folks who didn't reach Eagle but give an hour of their time each week, just encourage them to support developing a program where scouts of all ages are free to have fun and be challenged to do is his best. If you do this, then those special boys will get their chance to be special. As for the dead minnow, I'm glad we didn't use Beav's stink bait. Barry

>>scout had the character and maturity of an eagle scout at the level of the eagles past, then he would get the conference.

>>Im also not saying we as Scoutmasters should be going around denying scouts BOR because of his age. Im saying the program dictates the age AND character of the Eagles. Challenge them to the fullest extent they can handle and build the best Eagles you

Ewwwww! OK, been there and done that. But I didn't enjoy it.

>>And BTW, what does unloading the gear have to do with making ethical decisions?

>>However, the lack of clear rules was a necessary pre condition for the fiasco.

Hi All Anyone who has helped at a church youth camp with youth in this age group would understand that a boy run type program would be impossible. Barry

>>Sometimes boys (or anyone) need to be told what to do. Nothing Wong with that.

Nothing meant by it, it just seems like some of the discussions in our house. OK, OK, it seems like conversations with my wife. OK, OK, I admit it, she usually starts these kinds of discussions with, "Focus Barry, Focus. Now....". Glad your not ADD.

>>And I'm not trying to make it hard! Just trying to point out there are time things need to be told 1st & explained later.

>>If the boy is in the gray area of "active", hows about the Scoutmaster meeting with him to talk about it and agree between themselves whether he has been actively serving?

Hi All >>I feel that putting the responsiblility of the actions of the each member of the patrol to the entire patrol

Hi All >>So why not take the short cut and just tell them what to do? Because it is not trustworthy, helpfull, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, or brave.

This is a fun question. I love this program so much, I have often thought of its future. These are not what I want, just how I see how the winds are blowing. I will always long for the program I was in as a youth. On the Cub side, I think we will see a couple more interations of Tiger program changes before the overhead of required number of trained adults pushes the BSA to remove Tigers from the Cub program. I do think however, the BSA will develop a seperate program designed better for that age of boys. The other change that is possible, but I think less likely is lowering the Troop age to get the Webelos II in the program one year earlier. I think the Troop program will see a change in activities. The outdoor program will continue, but it will be watered down by liabilities, political correctness, limited public camping areas and high camp cost. The BSA will in turn add other activities, possibly pointed more toward technology and science. I do see the BSA giving in to some cultural pressure because more and more adult scouters without a youth scouting experience are joining and running the program. There will be less alumni and big money givers to resist changes to traditional parts of the program. Maybe something like giving COs more say. I do believe numbers will never be as high after these changes are made. I also don't think the athiest restriction will change because the BSA will use that to keep their values reputation, which makes it different from most other youth progams. Neither will the girl restriction change and we can thank the the Girl Scouts for that. Pray they hold on because they are struggling. My personal fear for the Troop program is Venturing patrols will go away all together and the max Troop age will be 14. Boy run will still be here in name, but without older scouts, it will not really be what we know it as today. Venture Crews won't go away, but the name will change to encourage more themes that aren't considered adventurous. My other fear is the Troop program will develop into a more nerdy reputation and become less attractive to physically active boys. It will eventally be the program boys who don't enjoy sports look to join. Another reason why the numbers will not get better. As for uniforms, I honestly don't think they will have a dramtic change. At least not like Europe. These may sound like depressing visions, but really it all depends on the results of helping boys develop habits of character and making ethical decisions. I slowly developed these visions after years of talking with professionals and voluntiers way up in the program. On the positive side, I think the BSA will learn from the Canadian program and make adjustments that will keep them here for a long time. Barry

One way I like to explain our program is the adults should be reactive to the scouts, not proactive. Practice of making decisions and working with a team are the best teachers of developing habits that lead to making ethical decisions, not lecture. The hardest part of having a troop of reactive adults is getting the scouts to trust that we will not be over-reactive. Once an adult starts over reacting to a scout's failure, they lost that trust. Barry

>>You or I might think that someone is a sub-standard Counselor. But as long as they are on the list they are Counselors and are approved.

>>You or I might think that someone is a sub-standard Counselor. But as long as they are on the list they are Counselors and are approved.

>>In the meantime if the troop loses his paperwork the scout has a reciept signed by a troop leader showing that he turned in the completed merit badge form to the troop.

>>The second signature which goes on the Scout's portion of the blue card acts as a signed reciept so that the scout can if needed at a future date show evidence that the completed card was returned to a trool leader to record and send to council.

Hi All We had two families with full intention of being their sons (five sons total) counselors for all the MBs just so they could fast track the sons to Eagle. Our adults felt this was not giving the boys the best opportunity to practice making ethical decisions. To suggest it doesnt happen is silly. To suggest how to handle the possibility would help serve the purpose of the forum. >>And what if he picks the wrong counselor? How bad could this be that an adult must step in first to prevent it?

Hi all >>Teachers and administrators do not want to have to actually evaluate things. Much easier for them to overreact.

>>Hey, Eamonn started it!