Eagledad

Will you believe it? I give the results of our research of why families drop out and it’s disregarded. Folks here seem to only accept what fits their agenda. In fact, I would be surprised if today’s research didn’t support our data 25 years ago because program hasn’t really changed. We didn’t have a theory when we did research. We had a problem but didn’t know why. Research took us to the problem. Once we saw the problem (like why first year scouts have the highest dropout rate), we could track it to when National started recording membership numbers. Barry

We kept hundreds of scouts in the program with that Non-data.LOL That’s just a theory, you don’t even claim Data to support the theory. I happen to know a few young dads who were in scouts not considering it for their kids because it doesn’t look like the program of their youth just 20 years ago. I don’t know if that is any kind of trend, but it has to be considered. Barry

I think not. I did all the heavy lifting of acquiring data until about 12 years ago and used our research results to fix programs. We didn’t have a grudge we were trying to support, we were just trying to make the program better. It’s your theory, go find your support. There is plenty of National data if you are so inclined. I don’t think you can tho, your theory that girls and gays are the reason membership declined over the years is pretty out there. I interviewed and exit interviewed a lot of parents and scouts and compared that data with other people across the country. Gays, god and girls never came up. Maybe because families that would be so offended to quit would never join in the first place. We had several atheist parents in our units and several gay families in the district who joined and seem to enjoy the program. trust me that a lot folks are also watching resent membership data very close after gays were admitted. Like you, folks want to prove their personal theories. But since the Mormons pulled out following the membership change, trends are a mess and convoluted. Now add girls. Well Good luck. The trends we researched are still valid, but they are internal program issues. Stuff that doesn’t interest you. Barry

You would like to see the data of no data that supports your theory of BSA membership declining because of no girls! Barry

Trends and program reviews. Easy to monitor. And, it makes sense. There are several scouting programs for girls. What do you have that suggest an overwhelming demand. Barry

No contradiction, there has never been any indication that not admitting girls caused membership losses. National admitted they started taking girls to stop the bleeding after the Mormons left the BSA. Barry

Why is taking freedom of speech the go-to weapon for those who can’t sway their ideals on those with experience and knowledge. Barry

Better? Who is “us”? Several posters lately have been going out of their way to, well to impose an alternate reality. Why? There are mature adults here who only want to develop a program where their youth actually grow from their experience. The scouters come here Looking for tidbits of information to help them get closer to their efforts by asking real questions hoping for sensible solutions. The “us” are noise that pushes those real scouters away, thus keeping them from doing the best they can with the resources within their reach. Is wanting to be a resource for those asking for help prideful? Barry

I worked with concerning and skeptical parents for years. You have no integrity because you condemn the organization without intellectual reason. Parents want some kind of intellectual reasoning So they can trust you with their kids out in the wilderness for a weekend. You are close-minded and resort to flinging emotional spit-wad insinuations. It’s not the same. Experience trumps anger. Parents see it in an instant. Barry

There is no data for this assumption. First of all, there is ZERO data to even suggest that the girls membership policy had any more negative influence on membership than the GSUSA boys membership policy had a negative effect on their membership. Even National admits they only changed the membership policy to increase numbers (money). BSA beacame a target, but no data even suggests homosexuality was a cause for a decrease in membership. Infact, if you look at the numbers, the membership decline didn’t change through or after the Dale period. Membership did declined, but you’ll have to find the real causes. There is no data to support your assumption. But I know and data supports me. I’ve posted that data many times. Has nothing to do with the changing culture. Barry

Well, as usual, another condescending generalization. The steep slope you struggle to climb here is that your among experienced scouters, so you are lacking leverage. I’m trying to help you, but you aren’t listening. Many believe scouting made a difference in their lives. What is the part of the program that made a difference and why do you think it’s irrelevant today? You don’t have that experience, so you have no integrity even attempting to address the question. If you want anyone to take you seriously, you have to humble yourself to their knowledge. Barry

Again, since you lack a BSA scouting experience and haven’t shown any intellectual understanding of the program, your post can’t be taken seriously. Integrity. The buggy whip worked for 110 years, why not 111? Barry

Disagreeing with what? Your only only disagreeing argument is that a 110 year old program doesn’t fit in today’s culture. You are offended by post that you take out of context and you pretend your experience is equivalently to everyone on the list. You don’t give details, just generalizations. Your generalizations come off as personal, not structural to any weakness. You don’t have a youth scouting experience and pass it off as irrelevant, which is condescending to those who believe the BSA made a difference in the lives. if you truly want to have have a discussion, ask a question. I don’t think your bias will allow the humble approach. Barry

There is no integrity in this statement because you haven’t shown any evidence of understanding how the scouting program develops growth. Barry

😀 Exactly what is it that should die? At it’s best, scouting builds maturity by learning from bad decisions. My wife and were asked by our kids school to listen to a Nationally known child psychologist they sponsored Talk about techniques for encouraging kids to grow and mature in society. The theme of his talk is “The more mistakes your kids make as while they are young, the fewer mistakes they will make as adults.” That is the foundation of scouting. I mean no disrespect, I’m sure your smart and talented in many things. But I’m wondering if we are being played by continually showing respect to posters who obviously don’t have a clue of a subject they pretend to be experts. I find the shallow bias tone toward experienced scouters and their knowledge condescending and disrespectful. Barry

I think my up and coming iceberg is bigger than yours. Mine is based on facts seeing it through the eyeglass. Yours, up this point, appears to be based bias. Barry

Yep. Our pack was crossing over 30% of the Tigers until we made similar changes to ease the load on the parents. We gave all the Tiger families one Tiger coordinator who basically ran Tigers Program outside the Pack program. The Tiger parents were asked to attend two activities each month in a relaxed environment. We only included Tigers in the pack activities of Blue & Gold and Pinewood Derby. Our Crossover rate jumped to 95% and far fewer adults were involved. National changed the Tiger program in 2000 to require at least one parent attend one weekly den meeting and a monthly Pack meeting, which in many packs forced more adults to manage the Tiger program than all the rest of the Pack. Burnout! National did not knowingly rely on experienced scouters to maintain a level of program quality, it was just a natural occurrence for generations until the sudden "Demographics changes" of diluting the pool of adults. Even now, there has never been an organized systematic program for encouraging experienced scouters to pass along their knowledge newer adults. The quality control for maintain a minimum level of program is the simple result of newer scouters observing the more experienced scouters in action. Ironically, using older role models to pass along traditions and scout skills is a known tool of Patrol Method. The program reaction to the membership (demographic) change must have been almost instant in the 90's because training changes were occurring within five years and a completely new adult training format was implemented in 10 years. National never works that fast. So, there must have been a lot of pressure. A lot of people ask why Woodbadge was completely overhauled when it was considered a successful training program at the local level. I never heard an explanation, but I heard conspiracy rumors that it was a pollical opportunity for National. Barry

My reply was a general response, really to the ladies, that I was being sexist. I only mention the females membership changes as time events. There is not bias or anything against or for the event changes, just a marker of in history. I have worked, been trained and trained a lot of female leaders. One of which credits me with her Silver Beaver. I have lots of good stories of working along side with women, but I'm not one to sit here and defend myself against folks who don't read my post within the context it's written. I'm a big picture person and a fixer. Which is why I have so much experience with understanding programs. I've turned around a lot of trends once we looked at the numbers and understood the situation. Like the huge huge loses of 2nd year Webelos. That basically comes down to a 5 year cub program that burns out adults. Burned out adults either drop out or lead boring programs. Less than 30 percent of Tigers get to the troop program. That is a lot of drop outs based from a top heavy 5 year program. If a person is one to follow trends and numbers, they can start predicting changes. A few of us predicted a membership drop in 2005 as a result of some program changes National implemented to the Tiger program in 2000. Why five years? Because that is the average number of years for a Tiger to work their way to the Troop program. Facts are facts and if one wants to ignore the facts, like National does, it often leads to their peril. A couple of members here are angry at the BSA and just don't like the program. They let their emotions drive their opinions, which is usually wrong. It's been that way for the 20 years I've been on this and other forums. Folks let their unit experience drive their opinions about the whole program. As I said, they are rarely ever right. Exactly. Pretty basic really. In everything a human does, experience is the number one motivation of actions when there is no other information to set a path forward. Scouting was male program of which a lot boys joined. If they had a positive experience, and most do, they join the program with their sons and duplicate their experience. They did that for over 100 years. National is out-of-touch enough to not understand that reality, so they didn't see the tsunami coming when the sudden rush of new adults didn't have a clue. They started playing catch up with new training programs, but they were only guessing on how to fix the situation. They are still guessing because they have bigger problems to fix at the moment. But, that doesn't mean you can't start fixing the problems locally. That's what I did, I fixed problems locally. The design you are talking about is already there. The problem is the lack of selling the program at the top. Good councils generally have good Scout Executives who understand the big picture and sell it to everyone down to the unit. The lesser productive councils are usually reflective of the SE. I'm with you. In fact, this is what I have been doing for 25 years. I'm retired now, but some of the programs I developed that were made for this goal are still there. Start local. If your changes really make a difference, people will notice and use them. You will always have the nay-sayers like the like ladies yesterday, Everybody is an expert, but some experts actually know something of what they are talking about. Barry

Yep, and no body said that. Girl Scouts would be dealing with the exact same situation if they encourage more male leaders Barry

I agree, don't wait for National. Because of the reputation of our Troop level Junior Leadership Course, I was invited by council to develop a council level Junior Leadership course. My advise for developing your ideas at any level is recruit professional writers who believe in your ideas and aren't intimidated with complicated documents. I recruited two Scoutmasters who were also college professors. Develop your plan with enough details that you can sell your ideas. Then fill in the details with your recruited experts. Barry

Wow, I like this a lot. And I think scouters would enjoy it. We talk a lot about Scouting being for the youth. But, adults enjoy growth and develop passion with the experience of maturing as a leader. Creating passion is probably what WB does best. The courses can be presented in such a way that participants attend a more advance environment as well. We had an old-timer who was involved in the development of the original WB course. He eventually developed an advance Scout Leader Outdoors course where the participants spent a couple weekends backpacking. They learned advanced knots, first-aid, cooking and so-forth. The instructor spent time on the reasons and theories of the skills so that the participants became experts of why and when to use these skills. Something the old WB course did as well. Since only one person led the class, it was very limited, which was very frustrating because there was a long long waiting list. It was the favorite of all our classes. So, my point is make the advanced classes both in education and experience. Not sure how yet since we want committee leaders an equal part of the course. But we are creative. Good job. I'm really excited with your idea. Barry

No attitude. There is, or was, plenty of data over the years that tracked the membership changes and the program issues that followed. To ignore the facts because your feelings are hurt doesn't contribute to solving the real problem. Rationally, when ever a large change is introduced into balanced system, repercussions are the result of the imbalance. We can look at the issues of the imbalance and react proactively, or reactively. Barry I

Yes, but admitting girls also gives more opportunities for dads without a scouting experience to join. So, it's a wash. Scouting has always had inexperienced adults join the program, but before membership changes to admit female troop leaders and female scouts, the number of inexperienced adult leaders wasn't large enough to upset the balance of using experienced leaders to maintain a quality program. Eventually the ratio of new leaders with a scouting experience will rise enough to bring a balance back. Then training will not be the priority it is requiring now. But, the changes to the program in the next few years to accommodate the present lack of experienced leaders are what I fear could gut the real mission of developing ethical and moral decision makers. It's just one of many challenges my adult kids are dealing with right now. Barry

We commented on this forum 20 years ago of the shift from a majority of new leaders having a youth scouting experience to now a majority of new leaders without a youth scouting experience. It's a huge thing. Scouters without a youth experience required three times more hands-on experience. The BSA noticed the problem after admitting women as troop leaders. I met and coached several female Scoutmasters. I remember be left speechless after listing to one female SM brag that she introduced more of the Webelos style arts and crafts to her scouts and they love it. I was told by someone in her district that she was loosing scouts right and left. Not having a youth scouting experience doesn't make the adult bad, but it does challenge a 100 year old program that relied on roles models setting the standard for program quality. Its a shift that needs to be understood so the program can be fixed to deal with the situation. I brought up this issue again when the forum got hot and heavy on the BSA admitting girls. Admitting girls will bring in more adults with no scouting experience. It's just the way it is. When the majority of scouters don't have a scouting experience, the culture is going to change. There will certainly be less opportunities for new scouters to observe experienced scouters in action. I remember one forum member proposing that districts round up their experienced scouters so they can work with the new scouters. But, it's like using Troop Guides to role model patrol method in New Scout Patrols, it's not the same. Add that National has not be very welcoming to age experienced scouters. The culture has to change for the new influx of scouters just like National changed the training curriculum in 2000. My personal fear of the new culture's lack-of, and misunderstanding-of, Patrol Method. Training can teach the definitions Mission, Aims, Methods, Scout Oath and Scout Law until scouters are mumbling in their sleep. But, if they don't "trust" how patrol method changes a scouts character, it will get lost in the future program. I enjoyed reading MikeS72's post of his WB experience. It took me back to time when being a mentor for adult leaders was a fun experience. There was a humble pride that your skills could make a difference for making scouting a better place for boys. WB Participants in the old days had to be invited into the course. It wasn't about levels of training, the honor of being invited by the best of the best was acknowledgement of your dedication in the field with the boys. And it usually required many years of experience. Arrogance wasn't a trait of a Wood Badgers back then, in fact you likely didn't know many of the adults who were WoodBadgers. I also got my regalia in the mail, but I never wore it around scouts. In fact, I don't remember ever wearing it except during the WB courses. Barry

As a bicycle rider who spends a lot of time on county roads, I have passed a couple of bobcats and wondered how fast I needed to go just in case I looked like lunch. Just my luck the chase would start while riding up hill. Barry