Eagledad

Hi All >>The ideals moving out of front-and -center and the slack in uniforming corresponds most directly to the dramatic improvement in the use of the patrol method and further improvements in the leadership method brought by the current SM.

Hi All If your program is such that it contiues to grow and mature, eventally your scouts and program will have the maturity ability to expaned to all the funtions you describe. If in fact you don't consider these ideas and others like them to continue to challenge the scouts, you will find that your program will become an obstical to growth. You have to push the limits of the program so the scouts can learn their stregths and abilities. At one time or another, our scouts did everything on your list. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The issue of being as under weight as he is can cause medical issues and may be brought up during the health check at base camp.

>>It will be the most miserable week of your life, unless you went to Paris Island for boot camp,

Hi All >> I would end with a few words about confidentiality and it would end there as the situation will be out of your hands and in the hands of the SE where it belongs.

>>Did you use these people to prepare the CO for their role? If you knew the importance of the COs role in supporting a scout unit and you saw that it was not going to exist there why did you choose to start the troop there?"

>>The only reservation I can make in all this is to say that Juris' plan is not for newbies. But I would also say being an SM is not for newbies

>>The Council COmmisioner, who I am not sure read any of it, said that the Quality Unit took care of what I was talking about, which of course it doesnt,

>>US Scouting might have a problem with being a part the "world-wide family of Scouts" given our different interpretation of some aspects of Scouting, but it gives us something to strive for, anyway.

>>This seems like a bizarre situation to me. What was its origin?

>>Why can't it just be explained? Not evrything fits into neat one sentence packages.>I do not see how the membership loss proves that First Class Emphasis isn't working.

>>Again do not assume that everyone misinterprets the information, manydo not. Some understand it and just choose to ignore it,. Some understand it but disagree and so they change it. Some do not understand it at so do not try to learn it. Not everyone who doesn't use the program incorrectly simply interpreted it wrong.

I've never been much in favor of bringing Webelos to Camporees. It takes away from Webelos Woods and the Camporee for Troops. I was always out voted on that discussion. As far as knowing what the Camporee Events or Theme is going to be a head of time, our District has never been that organized. Which is probably one reason why it is not that well atttended. The best Camporee I've seen, other than our Night Trooporee, was a Backpacking Camporee. All the scouts had to break camp on Saturday Morning and hike five miles to their next camp. They had to stop at Skills Event stations along they way. The District Chairman of that District said scouts talked of that Camporee for years. I often thought of doing that in our town. Have all the Troops break camp from their CO and hike to our main park in the center of town stopping to do about six our eight skills events along the way. HAve the adults compete and cook that nights supper. A big bonfire in the football stadium along with a band for the Campfire program where everyone in town is invited to attend. All of Edmond would see scouting at it's best and the scouts would have a blast. Oneday maybe. Barry

Really good post Beav. I think there are two equal causes to the problem of practicing skills. One is that many of the skills learned arent used in our bungee-cord duct-tape culture just as you explained. The other is the creation of the NSP we have been talking about. Now please dont get wrong and think that I believe all scoutings problems are caused by the NSP. I personally believe we need the NSP in todays program, so Im not anti NSP, I just dont like some of the ways they are presented in the manuals. NSPs were created to help new scouts get more comfortable in the new troop so they would not quit in the first year. One of the ways National attack the problem of losing scouts was to change from scouts joining after their birthday to joining with the whole Webelos Den after they earn the AOL. The idea being that it is easier to stay in the program if your friends are with you. But that change forced troops to change their year-round skills program to a scheduled 12 month program repeated every year. See when a troop receives one or two scouts every month, then it naturally teaches all the skills all the time to help the newer scouts learn their skills and advance. Its a year round program of always using and teaching skills. You just get use to the idea that there will be some patrol time to learning the same skills each month or so. I dont remember that it was ever boring, maybe because everyone in the Patrols were involved. Once the program shifted to crossing large groups of new scouts the same month of the year, troops naturally shifted to a 12 month schedule program for the new scouts. Spring is basically the Tenderfoot and Second Class skills months. Summer is Second Class and First Class skills. And Fall is First Class skills. Winter is the season for the next batch of new scouts and starting all over. Even when you know this to be the problem, the troop is still kind of stuck. We learned it our second year in the troop and tried different ideas, but in the end, we basically a annual skills program. Ive gone long, but I think this is also the reason why Camporees arent as popular with scouts today as they use to be. Learning skills is boring when you have to relearn them over and over. Boys naturally would rather do something else. Good discussion. Barry

>>So, we can beat our heads against the wall trying to get people to read the books, or we can present the program in other ways.

Hmm, I was thinking more on the backpacking treks and suggest a backpack raincover from Campmor or even a large trash bag. That being said, I learned a lot from le Voyageur's post for our next Northern Tier trip. Never thought about using a dry bag to carry water. Barry

I tried dealing with these situations as topics in the ASM meetings and not dealing with person directly. If the adult is still a problem after that, then I talked to them directly. But that was rare. Barry

>>The purpose for First Class Emphasis is to focus leaders in the right place.>That is what the New Scout Patrol does and yet some leaders refuse to do that either.

I was just talking to my lovely wife the other day that this will be the first time for me to watch our 4th of July parade from the sidelines. My boys are in college and out of troop, but my daughter is now on the High School Pom Team, Squad? Patrol? Anyway she gets to ride a float in the parade. Now why didn't our troop think of that? Barry

We never stand in the way of a scout's ambitions and goals, in fact we admire those qualities. But at the same time, we also point out that camp is suppose to be a fun experience. We usually have several scouts go again their forth and fifth year. Have a great Scouting Day. Barry

>>I think what national was trying to affect was the retention rate of new scouts that first year because they were experiencing huge membership losses and still are at three pivotal times in the scouting timeline.

>>Rather than lower the program lets raise the leadership.

>>I dont want to come off as the Scouting know-it-all but it looks like I am the only one who has taken the time to read the SM Handbook.

>>Considering only the points I have just shared can anyone tell us what possible negative attributes there are to this program planning method?

Lots of good post guys, well done. My observation is the problem simply came from calling it a "First Class in the First Year" program. One example of a typical attitude was from a friend of mine. The only other Scouting experiences he had prier to becoming a SM was two years as the Committee Chair of our Cub Pack, so he was started almost from no understanding of Boy Scouts. When he read the Scoutmasters Handbook and went to training, he came back with the idea that he must get all his scouts to first class in the first year for himself to be considered successful. Four years later he told me that he missed the point completely. I found this a fairly common approach by many Troops. In the old days, you can go back as far as you want, but in the old days the First Class rank was recognition of the maturity of a scout who mastered the skills required to survive in the woods by himself. In general, if the boy is left to his own, his maturity will dictate the rate at which he learns all the skills to be a First Class Scout. By the time his becomes a first class scout, he also has the maturity for a scout that can survive in the woods on his own. The problem with FCFY is that it suggest all boys are mature enough to be First Class scouts with in the first year of their experience. This same problem is hurting the OA program in our area. I think we all agree that the real intent of the troop program is for the adults to responsibly develop a quality program where all the scouts can learn skills as fast as they want. The program should be as welcome to scouts who want to get first class in six months as it is scouts that are in no hurry. Now I do agree with Eamonn that a SM must recognize and guide those scouts who are taking their own sweet time, but I'm sure Eamonn agrees the concern should be the scouts maturity, not his rank. I can remember a scout who was in no hurry to advance. He blew off all his classes at summer camp and instead went swimming, hiking, running and all those things that eleven year olds love to do. He was independent enough that he didnt want to follow the crowd, but he was also was not mature enough to sit in classes. Today he would tell you that was his best summer camp. I watched and worked with the scout enough to see he was just having a lot of fun being a boy scout. Something I feel a lot of adults completely miss today. He was not looking to leaveg our troop. A year later he decided he wanted to be a first class scout, so he started calling older scouts to help him earn that rank. That scout went to Oklahoma University last year with the help of Eagle Scholarship. If I were to brag about the program this scout grew up in, it is that when he was ready, he knew where and who to go for help. To me, that is a program of maturity. Here is the question. What should we suggest makes a quality program for first year scouts? A few suggestions I have are: 1. Develop a troop where scouts are rewarded for seeking out help to learn skills. 2. Develop a program that doesnt rely on outside programs to advance like summer camps or MB Mills. This is a major problem in our District. 3. Develop a program where the scout has plenty of opportunities to ask for help. 4. Develop the program where the older scouts understand their responsibility to help the younger scouts grow and advance. 5. Develop a program where the adults dont take the scouts advancement personally be it too slow or too fast. Ignore a time line and instead make sure the program provides quality skills instruction. 6. Honor First Class Scouts as an achievement of full independence and responsibility in the Troop. Have a great scouting day. Barry