Eagledad

>>I use a pair of knee high womens nylon stockings ($.99) first, then a pair of Kmart mens nylon dress socks (3@$3.99) followed by a pair of Kmart mens polyester dress socks(3@$3.99). The nylon allows my foot to move slightly and eliminates blisters, for me. The nylon dress socks wick perspiration and the polyester socks cushion to a degree.

Wow, Been there and done that, threw away the T-shirt. It's hard to imagine that we adults don't think a like. It's even harder to understand that the adults don't think like me. Later on when the emotional cloud burns away, you will see that it's not really set back because the boys got it. The adults probably never did. But!, the boys got it. I have always spouted that our every step forward was preceeded with three steps back. In fact I sometimes wonder if our struggles were by design so that I could later get on some national forum and start out with "been there and done that". If I had to do it all over again, I would only do one thing different and that is spend more time with the adults than the scouts. In fact, most who have read my stuff long enough know that I have said several times that scoutmastering is 51 % working with the adults. I have always felt EagleInKY that you have a talent and gift for scoutmastering. From the begining you have lead a troop most scoutmasters would be proud of. You can't have maturity without growth and you can have growth without growing pains. What you are going through is normal for a visonary person like you because while you have a clear picture of the goal, the others haven't quite got there yet. And they won't unless paint the picture over and over. Imagine someone leading you into a dark cave saying, trust me, I know where we are going. You are very good at what you are doing. Your scouts are lucky to have you. All that being said, you still have a lot of work. Maybe this is more of a red flag that while you have given the boys the independence they need to grow, you haven't given them enough to give you time with the adults. Be and artist, color inside the lines for the adults so they see your picture. Hold their hands and pull them through your thoughts and ideas. Make them partners in your vision and not just passengers along for the ride. Trust me in that I know how hard it is to try an idea hopeing it works with the scouts and not really pulling the adults along because of the time involved. Its hard enough putting the boys through it, but to pull the adults as well? I'm not saying the adults will buy-in as you and everything will change. In fact I think it will be slow. But at least they might be more willing to give it a try. Now all this is not to say that you are the problem. We all know by your post and excellent guidence in the forum that you are talented and a natural for the job. But if I had to do it over again, I would have spent more time teaching aims, methods, boy run, and my VISION for each boy in the troop. Over and over again I would be saying it to the point that the adults were doing impressions of me behind my back. It's time for a meeting with the adults. Lay it all out, your dream, your ideas to progress forward, your fears and you frustrations. The boys are doing there job, now it's time for the adults to do theirs. Show them the growth and show them why. Make them get it. You have one of the best boy run programs in your district, not its time they understand why. You are on the edge of the best scouting a SM can have. It's when the troop gets into the older boy program that the scouts grow by leaps and bounds. Mostly because they aren't boys anymore, they are men trying to be men. The next year will be great and the next after than will be fantastic. You will be amazed and you and your adults will feel very blessed. So get the adults to hold on a little longer. If they are to reap the bounty that is about to be offered, they must to hold course a little longer. As for you, let it rest a few days. Give enough time for the emotions to fade away so you can see the reality of the weekend. It wasn't really all that bad, it was just a little red flag showing a couple bugs in the program. Just a little fine tuning really. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The troop has made a number of trips to NT and they say anything less will not fall apart by the 2nd or 3rd day and will get sucked off in the moose muck, leaving you shoeless for the rest of the trip.

I'm not so sure. I think what hiking boots have over other types of hiking footware is ankle support. But I think that applies to rough rocky trails or a lot of stream crossings. Philmont is pretty much packed trails with just a few stream crossings. Our Trail Guide a Philmont wore Teva hiking sandals as well as many of the other Trial Guides. And some just wore tennis shoes. Those guys/gals put in a lot of miles each summer. My 45 year old adult partner at Philmont had blisters so bad by the third day, he was considering quiting and leaving the group. He decided to first try out his pair of Teva sandals he brought for camp shoes and had very little trouble the rest of the trek. I have a pair of really good Salomon Hiking Boots that I love to wear, but if and when I go back to Philmont, I think I will take my very light and very comfortable Salomon river shoes. I wore them on a Northern Tier canoe trip up in Canada last September where we took an agressive nothern route. With a canoe on my shoulders most of the time, I portaged some of the toughest trails I have ever hiked and I can honestly say even with the rocky trials, my feet were never more comfortable. I do agree that good soles, socks and sock liners are very important and we push this very hard on our crews. I have never had a hot spot in the last 15 years after using good socks and liners. I don't know, but the quality of hiking foot gear today is really good. A light pair of hiking shoes or sandals that can handle a 50 lbs pack is pretty tempting for Philmont type terrain. Have a great weekend. Barry

>>Works great, unless you're a very small troop.

>>I then immediately had a talk with older brother then about how it "appears" when family members sign off on requirements (especially for 2+ ranks!!) and requested that he not do that anymore.

>>At our last jamboree there was a mild epidemic of dysentary.

We once had a cook burn supper while playing cards. After that, the new rule was the cook swills the cook pots. Never had a burned meal again. By the way, did anyone look at the scout Handbook to what they suggest for cleaning dishes. Not that it is the best, because I found it does conflict with the dept. of health, but I still rather send a scout to find the informatin than sit debate about it. I don't have the book next to me, but I think it suggest sanitizing second then rinsing. Dept. of health reverses that. Barry

>>The adult leaders do retest the boy's on some of the more difficult requirements just to keep them honest.

>> Crikey! Can you imagine the backlog of work the SM would have if he/she got into the power thing, and didn't allow ANYONE else to sign off?!?

Very impressive Beav. I agree with all the post, but as a Cub Master for a few years, I found that families tend to get lost with the differences of troops after about four different visits. I knew we were visiting too many troops when the Webelos were picking troops by the best games they did at their troop meetings. I might suggest you pick the best four to six troops. I used to find out who had the most consistant programs then send our scouts to see an example of the biggest, smallest, most boy run, and least boy run. I also knew which troops didn't mind handicap scouts or troops that had a long tradition of stability. Then, I suggested parents visit other troops if they knew of one they were interested in but we didn't visit. I think it is pretty important to get the parents involved, althought there is always at least one that just doesn't care. There was always several scouts who didn't make a decision until the last minute. Challenging for the CM wanting to bring a Troop leader for crossover, and also challenging for the SM who was called to recieve a new scout, but changed his mind at the last moment. I had a few times where I went to a crossover and came back with more new scouts than expected. I learn to take more books and neckerchefs than expected. Good luck with your Webs. Barry

>>They can experience living with the other 50% of the population and mistakes are expected. No pressure to learn and no exams to pass either. Maybe they will understand women more when they marry one and the divorce rate might drop.

>>Do some troops choose to go with mixed patrols because they can't or don't know how to staff these positions?

Wow, maybe I shouldn't even be clogging up the forum traffic when I don't realy have a good reply, but knowing the kind of person you are, I think you cantrust your heart to start you in the right direction. I've always felt that loving your neighbor as you love yourself is always a safe starting place. Barry

>>We were given strick instructions by the course director to stick to the syllabus and would like to know where I can find this.

>>Eagledad- What are you doing differently than how the BSA guidelines say it should be done?>I dont remember any training where we were told to go ahead and experiment with different things until we found something that works.

>>No, Barry! I insist that it was my bad for making you a "little angry" with me and forcing you to speculate on what my feelings must have been when I made you so, um, "angry."

>>So the advantage of a free market economy is that if you want your girls (or boys) to experience backpacking as a standard part of their Scouting program, you could choose Baden-Powell Scouting which still retains Baden-Powell's original expedition Advancement requirements. These have been dumbed-down and out of the BSA. But look up the First Class requirements in old BSA Scout Handbooks and you will find the BSA's version of Baden-Powell's "First Class Journey".

>>We are experimenting with using temporary "Super" patrols (more than 8 or 10 for a short time) instead of a NSP this year

>>In fact I have found that having girls present brings some reality to the machismo. Being dressed down by a young woman for being a foul mouthed abusive and chauvanist adolescent tends to smarten up the rare twit who forgets what respect means.

>>The boy who has served as a PL (elected, not the one month "trial") usually has great difficulty in that leadership patrol but that makes him a much better patrol member in the future. He can relate to what the PL is going through.

>>Yah, but FScouter, you're making a bunch of assumptions there, eh?

>>Having the boys start together in one patrol and keeping them together gives them the best chance of forming that tight group. This is the foundation of the patrol method.

Hi all. Here is something I wrote on the subject a few years ago based from our experience of growing from 12 scout to 80 in five years. It has been posted on someone elses Web site, which is how I found it again. Troop size and Troop program (Facts & Myths) by Barry Runnels Everyone has a preference and can list the pros or cons of each unit, with regard to size and program. There are some very fine units with all numbers of Scouts. Usually what makes a unit great is a group of adults who focus on what the Scouts get out of the program, not what the adults get. Each one of us has had our own experiences through life, our own way of doing things and our own way of handling situations. We are called Scoutmasters because we supposedly have mastered our life from our experiences. Scouting allows us to hand down what we have learned. How the dominating adults hand those experiences down to the Scouts is going to determine what kind of program your troop will have. Your troop will form itself to a size that fits the program. If you work to be a true boy run troop, you will probably never get larger than 50 ACTIVE Scouts. The SPL in a truly boy run troop can only handle a maximum of 50 Scouts. Really 40 is better. You can rearrange, move around and split groups all you want, but in the end, if the SPL is in charge, 50 Scouts is the limit. Anything more, requires adults to get more evolved with the day-to-day program. If your goals are a large troop and boy run is not a primary concern, then your troop will handle that large number. Whether they know it or not, and most don't, it's usually the Scoutmaster who determines the size of the troop by how he guides the program. If a Scoutmaster works through the Patrol Leader Council, the troop will grow to a size the PLC can manage. Increases beyond that will cause the program to suffer and the Scouts and parents will leave for a better program until the numbers fall to a size the PLC can manage. If the SM works the program though PLC and ASMs, it will grow to that size. If the SM works through the adults, the unit may grow very large. The adults in a troop need to agree on what they want the Scouts to get from the program. If it's rank and advancement, then it can be more of an adult-run program that will handle lots of boys. If leadership and behavior are more of a priority, then a troop may have to slim down a bit to allow the Scouts to learn from their actions. A few myths: There is a myth that you should feel obligated to accept large numbers of incoming scouts so they can enjoy your wonderful program. The truth is, if the troop size greatly changes, your program will change. Logistics, equipment, number of Patrols and adult leaders will change just to keep up. If the adults and scouts are not ready, you will loose about 25% of your Scouts while the troop leadership scurries to catch up. Your wonderful program may no longer be so wonderful. If you do expect a large influx of new scouts, your leadership should plan now so you don't get lost when they do come. And prepare for a different program that fits your new size. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. Another myth is that you have to keep your numbers low to stay boy-run. Well, yes and no. As I write this, we are the third largest troop (in our district) hovering around 80 Scouts. And we brag to be very boy run, maybe the most boy run troop in the district. But any given time through of the year, we average about 40 to 50 Scouts at meetings. Sports and other outside activities keep us to that number. So the program is still manageable for the SPL and we maintain avery active boy run program. Another myth is that that splitting your program solves the big troop problems. Not really. We looked at this several different ways and talked to a lot of units who did it. Every unit said that it doubles the logistical problems of the troop for the leadership. The split didn't really solve many of the big troop problems except space. In fact, every leader said the program still felt big and the problems tripled because the communication and management became more critical. Even though each group was smaller, they were still run like big groups, so they still lost the Scouts and adults who wanted a small group program. Units that liked and worked well with the split program had more than 200 Scouts. That's a lot of scouts. You might go this way, but don't expect to solve your big group problems. Splitting the troop just allowed the big troops to get bigger. If you split, I suggest splitting into a whole new troop with a different charter. STILL difficult, but it forces each adult to focus on one troop and one program. Yet another myth is that you have to take every Scout that comes to your troop. You don't. You don't have to do anything. We have never turned a Scout away from our troop, but I always give visitors names of 4 or 5 other troops in town. I know how important it is to find a troop that fits the family. Those troops are grateful for the help (and isn't being helpful the Scouting way)? Some troops control size by high initial dues. Some control it by only inviting a small limited number of Webelos Dens. Troops that I have seen turn away Scouts up front usually regret it later by the reputation developed from that method. What I am trying to say is you don't really have much control on numbers. You can try, but it's difficult. You do have a lot of control on your program. And your program will probably control your numbers. The adults need to sit down and discuss goals, and your experience in the program that will lead you to those goals, (as will training and help from other sources). You need to decide what you want the boys to get out of their experience in your troop and build your plan of action to reach those goals. This may all seem vague and difficult, but if you don't do it, you will regret it later when you're r standing there watching 100 screaming scouts running around waiting for the program to kick in. Gather your adults and ask them to speak openly about where they want the program to go. Agree on a plan and explain that plan to everyone in your troop and visitors to your troop. Then drive the program, with your PLC, to that plan. Eventually your numbers will fit into the program that comes from your plan. Of course the plan will change on the way to your goals, but that is a given. Just recognize the need for a plan and to have everyone working towards it. Ask for prayers, they help a lot. Ask for help from Scouts_L, there is a lot of experience there.

>>I can't help but wonder though, if they keep deferring based on a lack of experience, at what point are they ever going to feel "ready" for that responsibility?