Eagledad

>>Maybe instead of presenting it in the church basement with powerpoint slides and bought pizza it would work better at camp or at least at the park and the boys cook their own lunch? just an idea to put the outing back in Scouting

>> Yah, first you need to get documentation from dad, and perhaps ask permission to speak to the treating physician/psychologist. This has nothin' to do with rank advancement, this is so that your adult (and key youth) leaders understand the boy's condition & medications enough to be able to help, support, and keep him safe on trips.

>>I no of NO ONE who uses flag signalling anymore, and that includes a couple of Fourth World threat nations.

Of course many have read my opinions of the Venturing Patrol and older scouts in general in the Troop. Im glad you mentioned the Cub Scout program and its effects on future Troops Eammon, that tells a lot about your insite learned from your experience. When the BSA change the Tiger program about 5 or 6 years ago, I was curious if that was going to negatively effect the Troop numbers. I am not involved enough to know, but I wish more folks would at least understand how little changes can make big waves. I agree with you that older scouts 16 and older are difficult for the troop program. I have for the last ten year been talking how I think the BSA misses the boat completely on the older scouts. You like the Venturing Patrol and Im curious what it is about that part of the program that appeals to you. From experience, it neither challenges the young adult mind or their spirit. It just seems to me an added program meant to pacify the older guys with entertainment to stay in the troop another year or two. It is patronizing at best. We have worked with the older scouts awhile and tried many different approaches. Eventually our older scout program was so successful that Council was sending all older scouts transferring into our area to our troop. We average five new scouts a year just in 14 year olds or older. From a numbers stand point, at one time we had more older scouts than any Troop, Venture Crew or Explorer program in our Council and I found myself fighting off council for a couple years trying to turn our older scout program it into a Crew. They didnt understand that our success came from the over all troop program, not just the older scout side of the program. I keep telling less experienced Troop Adult leaders that the success of the younger scouts in a boy run program is primarily based on the success of the older scout program. It is a circle that if cut anywhere, will affect the whole. You heard me say it before, but it goes like this; younger scouts rely on role models and examples to grow. If the troop doesnt have older scouts, then the adults must take up the slack. Problem is the more the adults are involved in, the less the program is boy run and the less they learn from the struggles and mistakes made learning how to run a troop program. Adults leaders by nature tend to be perfect in their performance and thus rarely look back on it to learn from the mistakes even if there were many. Even worse, adults arent very humble in front of boys because pride gets in the way. I think one of the best attributes of the adults in the troop is the willingness to learn from the scouts. It is a rare attribute. Anyways, a program that understands that young scouts learn by older role models put a high emphasis of quality on the older scouts. They are expected to be role models of integrity and moral responsibility. The older scouts are expected to control behavior and acknowledge both the good and bad behavior. The older scouts are expected to be the behavior role models of the program, not the adults. The older scouts are deeply rooted and connected to the actions and behaviors of all the scouts in the program just as the adults are rooted and connected to the behaviors of the cub scouts in the cub program. The success of the older scouts will produce the success of the rest of the program just like failure will lead to failure. The very title of Venture Patrol doesnt imply a program for all scouts, but for only special scouts. It implies a program of play without brotherly responsibility. It implies a game without a purpose. Until we adults understand the 16 year old scouts are adults, not boys and treat them as such, they will leave. You already pointed out that the ship is exciting to you because it is different from the troop. I imagine part of that difference is the scouts in your ship act more and are treated more like adults. Im betting you give them a lot of room to run their program. Do your adults in the troop do the same? Nope, the BSA and most adults in general dont really get it. Adding a Venture patrol was there way of saying I know your bored with the young guys, well go on and play, we will take care of them. As I said, the quality of the Troop program as a whole is based primarily on the older scout program. You want to judge how boy run a troop is, just watch the older scouts. Do they take charge of the troop or wait for the adults. Do they control behavior of all the scouts, or stand back and watch it? Do they suggest new directions for the program, of ask for permission to give an idea? Im not suggesting that working with older scouts is easy and the BSA is missing the boat. It isnt that it is easy or hard in fact, it is just different. Older scouts want to be treated like adults, but adults tend to view the scout troop program as basically repeating a first class training program over and over when in reality scouts need to be challenged as they grow. That is a hard concept to understand, and I think the BSA hasnt figured it out. I was reading the different views of the SMs responsibility of MB counselors on a different discussion. I was surprised on how much adults take upon themselves in the name of giving the scout a quality program. Instead of teaching and giving scouts the experience of judging quality and applying scout personal safety, the adults instead take on the responsibility themselves and deprive the scouts of those experiences and developed skills. They may have learned a skill from the MB, but the learned nothing toward life skills of survival of independent thinking they need later as an adult. We are just talking about meeting a counselor for a MB for goodness sake, can you imagine the real challenges of planning and running a program. Arent those the kinds of things we want our sons to learn? No wonder adults dont let older scouts take on adult responsibilities, they never taught them those skills in the first place. Reminds me of a SM I knew who was waiting until his scouts were 14 to let them lead the troop. When they reach that age, they quit from the sudden expectation of them because they hadnt developed any leadership skills that would give them that confidence to even try. I give the SM some credit, when he realized his error, he quit and told the committee to find someone who understood boy run better than he had. Am I disappointed in these types of adults? No, its not really in the training and while BSA says a lot of good things about a boy run program. It is implied, but not really taught. Maybe teaching and expecting independent thinking of youth and allowing them to learn the hard lessons from experience is a hard concept to expect in this day and age. Maybe it is a philosophy that our culture in general is no longer willing to accept for our children. I think it is realistic to suggest that our culture has regressed just enough that the boy run part of scouting is too progressive for our culture anymore. I am glad you are enjoying the Ship program. I think you deserve to enjoy working and mentoring young adults who want and need your wisdom. I know that I would push for my kids to be involved with adult such as you. I see you feeling the frustrations of watching possibilities fading as the program progresses through the years. You are a romantic with the same visions of Badon Powell and want to understand why the visions seem so far away. I think this is a good topic to ponder and maybe learn something from each other. Maybe youve taken a step toward changing the a small part of our world. You proven to us you are certainly capable. Have a great week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>And if an completed blue card came back without my signature I would have to question the Scout as to what he learned & why he switched counselors.

>> If the MB has the final word what is it the SM is signifying with his second signature? Remember the requirement for Star is to EARN 6 merit badges not obtain 6 merit badge application cards signed by an approved MBC.

John-in-KC ask some good questions, and if everything is on the up and up, the short answer is the MB Counselor has the last say. The SM's signature is first on the card before the scout meets the counselor, the counselors signature is last after the scout completes the requirements. If the SM feels the counselor isn't doing a good job, he doesn't have to approve him/her the next time. Barry

This is really interesting. A small council next to our council is offering a non-Sunday Wood Badge, mostly intended for LDS, but anyone was invited and welcome. It is completely full. Now it is a small council and they only offer WB once every two years, but everyone is amazed because it fill up so fast. And the course I'm on this Spring may benefit from that course because there is a long waiting list, so they just may hop over to our course instead of waiting two more years. Great letter that was fun to read. Barry

My gosh, you guys cant imagine how much my heart cheers for you and your programs. Since my phrase motivated this thread, I feel I need to tell yall the bad news and the good news. First the bad news is, all of you are in the Box Seat now sitting in your easy chair. The good news is all of you are now in the Box Seat sitting in your easy chair. A few weeks ago, I cant remember the subject, but one poster said, Calm seas do not make good sailors. A guardian cant be someone who stands in the background guarding someone elses vision. You are there now, you are in your moment of glory because you are shaping the troop toward the vision. I cringed when I saw how you guys looked forward to the easier days, because while I can assure you easier days are surely ahead, your days as the guardian of the vision have the most impact now. The foundation you build now keeps everything that follows strong. I know how hard you are working and how just when everyone seems excited to be in the troop, nobody shows up to a meeting. It is one step back for every two steps forward. While you struggle with the one step back, I have the luzury of my position of seeing that you are one glorious step farther forward. You guys are in a place that its hard for many to imagine the nobility of what you are doing. It seems just when you thought the adults were starting to get the vision, they trip you up on some minor detail that is reverse to the philosophy of your vision. And then there are those times when the scouts seem to back off from the independence that you so desperately want them to rap their arms around. And to top it off, the parents just want the boys to get eagle. But, there are rewards for visionaries and guardians of progress and they are great. Does it help to know that less than 5% of the world is visionaries? And even less who actually try to make their vision a reality. Everyone one of you are in a small noble club that the rest of the world waits for to lead change. Think about what you guys are saying: We were an adult run troop, but now. You one of the few who are leading change. Adult run is easy, but it is not really scouting. Those adults of the past were lazy, but their real crime was they just didnt understand the value of a boy growing into man by simply letting him do it on his own, a simple idea that most adults just simply fear. You do and that is a very couragous philosphy. I have said it many times, but I firmly believe it, A troop is real life scaled down to a boys size. If they experience it now, how much easier will it be for them when they experience it again as adults? For 95% of adults, scouting is a now thing where the boys learn how to cook and camp. Some how, and it is a mystery to them, the scouts also become good leaders along the way. And that is cool even if that really isn't really what it is all about. But to you, scouting is future thing, it is about when each boy is a man. What we do now hopefully will help these guys when they are in a struggling job, holding two hungry crying kids because mom is sick in bed with the flu. What is the right thing to do? Scouting is about boys developing habits that help them become better men when they are fathers, husbands and community leaders. That is quite a vision you have there and is quite a responsibility to forward along. But it is your vision and 95% of the world is counting on you to come through. Its not for the meek and that is why there are so few of you. It's not easy and only a few will endure the heat required to harden the dream, the vision. There was a time when I wish that you guys didnt have to go through the struggles with the parents and adults, or that you didnt have to repeat yourself over and over again until the scout got it. There was a time when my compassion watered down my reasoning for understanding how struggle is fertilizer for growth. But I have had time to look back on it and now I believe the integrity of visions are solidified by at least some struggle because by definition, a vision is something different from the norm. Oh I still have the same compassion as before and trust me that my heart, as well as other parts of me weeps as I read your words and as I type on my keyboard now. Ive been there and I know what it is like to loose sleep because your program took one step back the previous day. I understand the loneliness of other adults waiting for you to make the next move and sometimes tripping your progress. If there is anyone who desires for God to hold you in his arms, it is me because I know. But even the bible says that growth comes from strife and struggle. I how easy it is to focus on the pain of strife and struggle, but the key word for guardians of the vision is growth. You and those like you are in a good place right now. You are shaping, forming and guiding the program through growing pains. Most dont see the small growths just as an uncle doesnt see the everyday growth of a nephew. They therefore dont understand the pain of even the small steps, but you guys do because you are looking down on the program at all angle everyday. But see those little successes, you see the light bulbs click on and courage where it wasnt just a few days before. Did any of the other adults notice the SPL running the whole meeting without any adult guidance or the scouting teaching First Class knots without adult observation? Now given the choice, would you rather look up into someone elses vision, or lack of it. As the program marches along and gets easier, you will reap the rewards. But really you guys are talking about it now, all those little advances that you see now and then. As your job gets easier because the boys takeover over more each day, I honestly cant say looking back, that it gets any better. Less stressful and less painful, but any better? I wonder if a builder enjoys building the roof anymore than the foundation. Each step forward of the vision requires guiding hands to hold it in the right direction. You are in control now, you are changing the world as we speak, even if it just in your little corner. Your scouts are part of something that very few other programs, if any offer. Your scouts are lucky to be in your troop and they will one day realize it, even if it is that one day when they are holding two crying kids. Your reward will be that moment. So, trust that Eamonn, Eagleinky, Old Grey Eagle, Longhaul, Mascout, gwd-scouter, ASM59, t158sm, onehour, beaver96 and many others are here make your scouting experience easier and you can count it them. You certainly deserve it. But really, hopefully the next time the PLC decides to take one step back, maybe understanding that calm seas dont make good sailors will console you at least a little. My prayers are that you go home after each day with your boys saying to yourself, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Good responses by Longhaul and Ma, and I would like to add that the SM approval is also a nice requirement for scouts, or worse, parents signing up their sons without the Troops knowledge. It is a delicate situation, but the scoutmaster requirement can be a safety value for the council to find out what is really going on. Once in a while it was a SM who just didn't care and the Scout just wanted more training. That gets tricky also, but you can learn a lot by just talking to the SM. It's more of a council judgement, but I think SM signiture is good to have. Barry

Gotta say Scoutmaster was best for me. I think the reason is because the Scoutmaster has the best view of the vision becoming reality. Its like being on top of the hill; you have the gods-eye view of everything. Unfortunately, along with a great view comes a heavy burden of being guardian of the vision. When I was ASM, I willingly gave up some of that view because the sacrifices required for a Box Seat ticket can be great. But once a person commits to shouldering the burden, they learn to balance the load, and relish game. Saying all that, I admit working with older scouts is a very close second. Like Kahuna says, you get to work with a wonderful group of young folks who constantly knock your socks off. I am excited to read future post of Eamonn's experiences with the Ship. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The new leaders seem excited about being trained, but trying to get the people who are experienced to come is like pulling teeth.

>>Started doing that some 50 years ago when I was breaking and training horses. That is how my dad made us break in our boots. Never have had a pair of boots that gave me blisters.

We had four years in a row with almost that many new scouts and we learned a lot. We didnt handle it right our first year and lost over 50% of the new scouts in the first six months. A lot of how you deal with this situation has to do with the number of scouts you already have. If your new scouts out number the rest of the troop, consider the troop brand new because the troop dynamics will have to change to keep up. This is a great time to have an adult leader meeting to review the troop program, the vision, mission, goals and so on. Then have a PLC meeting that includes adults to get everyone on board as a team to the challenges. Be positive because scout sense fear faster than bears in a nudist resort. Try to have contingency plans for dealing with the large influx like camps required for your troop at month camps, summer camps, and driver for traveling. I remember calling the Summer Camp that we waited for two years to get on and telling them we were twice the size that we expected. Logistics takes a big hit with that many new scouts, so start looking for additional tents, stoves and other patrol gear required. You can barrow equipment from other troops. What about the trailer, will it hold up to this? I think Semper gives some really good advice. I respectfully have to say that we found that new scouts dont like to separated from the rest of the troop. That is not the program they visited as Webelos and they want to be part of the whole troop, not separated into new scouts and everyone else. You may be forced into it for some activities, but I would keeping it to a minimum. I believe the risk is worse with the larger number of new scouts. I also suggest getting your parents support and understanding for the coming challenges NOW. Have a parents meeting to explain the good fortune, wonderful opportunities that come with a big troop and the challenges that follow. I would make it positive in that the more scouts, the merrier. Still there are going to be growing pains and you need everyones help and patience to accomplish your vision. I wished we done this the year we lost so many new scouts. It is much better to have parents say, well I guess these are part of the growing pains they talked about, in stead of why in the world is it taking so long for the troop to leave the church. Other troops seem more organized. On a few things for the scouts, when we had a huge influx of scouts, we attached each NSP to a Big Brother patrol. The idea is set up the NSP near its Big Brother patrol to get the help of the whole patrol if needed. In our case, the Troop Guide was part of the Big Brother patrol, but Im not suggesting you do that. Asking the patrols to help the TGs also suggest that all the scouts are responsible for all the new scouts and their challenges. This is kind of important because you are going to see a BIG difference at the next campout. There are going to be new scouts all over the place and the older scouts dont take well to the disruption of change. So prepare them and ask for their help to make this the best troop in the district. Then reward their efforts. I once stopped and bought all the scouts a coke on the way home from camp just to say thanks. I look forward to reading your future post. We all can learn from them. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Sounds like an impressive young man and I guess we adults must be doing a really good job if those are the kinds of suggestions youth wants adults to hear. However, that was not the kind of suggestions I heard from older Scouts at JLTC. I'm not sure what I called the scouts, but I know my heart was to treat them with same respect as I did adults. Scouts can tell when you're patronizing no matter what words you use. My philosophy about scouts feeling good about themselves was for them to earn that feeling with a job well done and by serving those around them, not from anything an adult said. Have a great day. Barry

The BSA has an age requirement for JASM (16), but we ignored it. For us, JASM was an indication of maturity, experience and attitude. To put an age requirement would be restricting some really good scouts. Our JASMs were scouts who wanted troop responsibilities, had mastered the leadership skills developed in the seniour scout postions like SPL and Troop Guide, and were ready for the next step of advising scouts, not leading them. In most cases, the scout choose what he could offer or do for the troop. We had JASMs helping the Advancement Chairman, the PLC, CheerMasters and Grubmasters, JLT and Troop Guides. In each of these positions, the JASM basically had the responsibilities of the adult adviser. I looked at it kind of as on the job training for the ASM. My suggestion is look for a weakness in your program, design a plan to help fix that weakness by guiding the scouts. Present the plan to the SM with you being a JASM. By the way, I am impressed with your troop using older Troop Guides. We found using mature older scouts makes a big difference in the success of new scout performance. Barry

>>I use a pair of knee high womens nylon stockings ($.99) first, then a pair of Kmart mens nylon dress socks (3@$3.99) followed by a pair of Kmart mens polyester dress socks(3@$3.99). The nylon allows my foot to move slightly and eliminates blisters, for me. The nylon dress socks wick perspiration and the polyester socks cushion to a degree.

Wow, Been there and done that, threw away the T-shirt. It's hard to imagine that we adults don't think a like. It's even harder to understand that the adults don't think like me. Later on when the emotional cloud burns away, you will see that it's not really set back because the boys got it. The adults probably never did. But!, the boys got it. I have always spouted that our every step forward was preceeded with three steps back. In fact I sometimes wonder if our struggles were by design so that I could later get on some national forum and start out with "been there and done that". If I had to do it all over again, I would only do one thing different and that is spend more time with the adults than the scouts. In fact, most who have read my stuff long enough know that I have said several times that scoutmastering is 51 % working with the adults. I have always felt EagleInKY that you have a talent and gift for scoutmastering. From the begining you have lead a troop most scoutmasters would be proud of. You can't have maturity without growth and you can have growth without growing pains. What you are going through is normal for a visonary person like you because while you have a clear picture of the goal, the others haven't quite got there yet. And they won't unless paint the picture over and over. Imagine someone leading you into a dark cave saying, trust me, I know where we are going. You are very good at what you are doing. Your scouts are lucky to have you. All that being said, you still have a lot of work. Maybe this is more of a red flag that while you have given the boys the independence they need to grow, you haven't given them enough to give you time with the adults. Be and artist, color inside the lines for the adults so they see your picture. Hold their hands and pull them through your thoughts and ideas. Make them partners in your vision and not just passengers along for the ride. Trust me in that I know how hard it is to try an idea hopeing it works with the scouts and not really pulling the adults along because of the time involved. Its hard enough putting the boys through it, but to pull the adults as well? I'm not saying the adults will buy-in as you and everything will change. In fact I think it will be slow. But at least they might be more willing to give it a try. Now all this is not to say that you are the problem. We all know by your post and excellent guidence in the forum that you are talented and a natural for the job. But if I had to do it over again, I would have spent more time teaching aims, methods, boy run, and my VISION for each boy in the troop. Over and over again I would be saying it to the point that the adults were doing impressions of me behind my back. It's time for a meeting with the adults. Lay it all out, your dream, your ideas to progress forward, your fears and you frustrations. The boys are doing there job, now it's time for the adults to do theirs. Show them the growth and show them why. Make them get it. You have one of the best boy run programs in your district, not its time they understand why. You are on the edge of the best scouting a SM can have. It's when the troop gets into the older boy program that the scouts grow by leaps and bounds. Mostly because they aren't boys anymore, they are men trying to be men. The next year will be great and the next after than will be fantastic. You will be amazed and you and your adults will feel very blessed. So get the adults to hold on a little longer. If they are to reap the bounty that is about to be offered, they must to hold course a little longer. As for you, let it rest a few days. Give enough time for the emotions to fade away so you can see the reality of the weekend. It wasn't really all that bad, it was just a little red flag showing a couple bugs in the program. Just a little fine tuning really. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The troop has made a number of trips to NT and they say anything less will not fall apart by the 2nd or 3rd day and will get sucked off in the moose muck, leaving you shoeless for the rest of the trip.

I'm not so sure. I think what hiking boots have over other types of hiking footware is ankle support. But I think that applies to rough rocky trails or a lot of stream crossings. Philmont is pretty much packed trails with just a few stream crossings. Our Trail Guide a Philmont wore Teva hiking sandals as well as many of the other Trial Guides. And some just wore tennis shoes. Those guys/gals put in a lot of miles each summer. My 45 year old adult partner at Philmont had blisters so bad by the third day, he was considering quiting and leaving the group. He decided to first try out his pair of Teva sandals he brought for camp shoes and had very little trouble the rest of the trek. I have a pair of really good Salomon Hiking Boots that I love to wear, but if and when I go back to Philmont, I think I will take my very light and very comfortable Salomon river shoes. I wore them on a Northern Tier canoe trip up in Canada last September where we took an agressive nothern route. With a canoe on my shoulders most of the time, I portaged some of the toughest trails I have ever hiked and I can honestly say even with the rocky trials, my feet were never more comfortable. I do agree that good soles, socks and sock liners are very important and we push this very hard on our crews. I have never had a hot spot in the last 15 years after using good socks and liners. I don't know, but the quality of hiking foot gear today is really good. A light pair of hiking shoes or sandals that can handle a 50 lbs pack is pretty tempting for Philmont type terrain. Have a great weekend. Barry

>>Works great, unless you're a very small troop.

>>I then immediately had a talk with older brother then about how it "appears" when family members sign off on requirements (especially for 2+ ranks!!) and requested that he not do that anymore.

>>At our last jamboree there was a mild epidemic of dysentary.

We once had a cook burn supper while playing cards. After that, the new rule was the cook swills the cook pots. Never had a burned meal again. By the way, did anyone look at the scout Handbook to what they suggest for cleaning dishes. Not that it is the best, because I found it does conflict with the dept. of health, but I still rather send a scout to find the informatin than sit debate about it. I don't have the book next to me, but I think it suggest sanitizing second then rinsing. Dept. of health reverses that. Barry

>>The adult leaders do retest the boy's on some of the more difficult requirements just to keep them honest.