Eagledad

This is one of my favorite subjects and some really good stuff has been said. I found that no matter how much training you give to scouts, they will still bring stuff like hair gel on a hike. Yes, hair gel and he was an older scout. Anyways, I like a hike where the scout has a chance to lighten the pack on a second day and feel the difference. As for scouts physically fit for the trips, I have always had one scout on each trek who struggles to complete the day. He usually is the bigger athletic scout that nobody would expect to struggle. I have come to believe that fatigue and endurance are more mental than physical and usually is not exposed on short shakedown hikes. I have found that external frame backpacks work better for young scouts. Internal frame packs are typically more complicated adjust the fit and have less compartments to organize gear. External packs are simple to pack and usually much simpler to adjust. As the scouts get better at packing and understanding how to adjust packs, they can move up to an external frame pack. The Kelty Yukon and Jansport Scout are two excellent starter external packs that are reasonable priced and can be re-adjusted to fit as the scout grows. Also, the most important part of any pack is the hip belt. Weight is carried on the hips, not the shoulders, so when looking for a pack, make sure the hip belt fits well and has room to be cinched in. Scouts will loose an inch or two during a long hike and if the belt cant be cinched in to compensate, the scouts AND ADULTSS shoulders will suffer Greatly. Some wisdom comes from great pains than others. Finally, I suggest leaders try to learn how to adjust packs because I find that I usually spend the first two hours of the first shakedown hike and the second morning of the trek hike re-adjusting the scouts packs for a more comfortable fit. It isn't always the weight, but many times the fit that discourages a scout from backpacking. Fun discussion. No wonder I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All Looking back, I've come to believe that 50% of the Scoutmasters job is to work with the adults: Partly to evaluate the performance of the programs and partly to reaffirm the vision of the program. I can't say that we had any kind of planned meeting to do this, but I do remember that we evaluated the program a lot after troop meetings, on the way to camps and from camps, at campfire after the scout went to bed, and even through Email. I think we were a bit anal about it really, especially the first few years because we knew to achieve the kind of boy run program we envisioned, we needed to change as performance indicated. We gradually learned that the adults had to change faster than the scouts learned just to stay out of their way. If I were ever a SM again, I would try to make some kind of planned agenda for such meetings. But it is important that the meetings have purpose because we are a busy society and I hate to take time from others just so I can preach. I would likely have those meetings at my house with the barbecue fired up in the backyard. I only want to add, that the troop adults need to understand the troop program well enough to explain it to the parents, a lot. Most problems that occur between the parents and troops occur from misunderstandings. I even handed out a copy of the Aims and Methods to my parents every six months, which Im sure most threw away. However, as we did this, we found that misunderstandings were replace with total support of our program. Great question. Barry

>>Lotsa talk about summer camp... what do you do to make it more fun and comfortable for both yourself and your scouts?

Yes, a pat on the back is in order. You can't know the excitement and pride of some parents and families. I've had parents who set the ECOH date and invited family from out of state before the scout even went to his BOR. To some families, the Eagle is no less of importance than a daughters wedding. Wearing the patch before National approval can be a risk, but you don't want to throw any water on that families flame. As for early patches, traditionally the SM of our troop purchases and presents the Eagle patch to the scout as soon as National approves so that the scout can proudly show off his Eagle without waiting for the COH. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

There is a lot that could be said about the situation, but you pretty much said it all. My experience is when the adult starts to behave in the way you described, it is time for him/her to move on. I also don't see the granola bars being a big issue here. In the context of everything, the boys learned their lesson and the JASM guided them in how to change the behavoir and the snacks just help the scouts funtion the rest of the day. The adults need to know when a positive growth experience can quickly change to negitive one. I've observed about Wednesday at summer camps, everyone is peaking with fatigue. I eventually started having meetings with the adults in the morning explaining this unwanted tradition and to expect that not only will the boys get cranky, but so can the adults. I ask that they give an extra effort to set an example and hold from snapping or jumping on the scouts or each other. In fact, I ask that they give an extra effort to keep the enviroment positive. I also ask that no adult feel offened if another adult needs to interupt a potental cranky attack. I learned that the hard way during my first summer camp as an adult. Come Thursday, it seems like everything starts getting back to normal. Barry

>>I would be uncomfortable with most scouts using tools such as a power circular saw, chop saw, pneumatic nailers or a heavy drill

Under G2SS (Sports and Activities) ..Chainsaws and mechanical log splitters may be authorized for use only by trained individuals over the age of 18, using proper protective gear in accordance with local laws. This is the only restriction on power tools you will find in the G2SS. Our scouts use a lot of different power tools for their service and eagle projects. We used the activity badges in Webelos to teach proper safety and use of power tools as well. I remember teaching all the scouts the proper use of lawn mowers since that is about the age they start using them. Truth is Scouting should be a place were we learn proper use and respect of power tools and woods tools instead of fearing them. Strangely, the tool that causes the most reported enjuries for scouts is the hand saw, not the axe of knife. Barry

>>Since your unit seems to be short on gear, hows about having all the funds from the next fundraiser go to replacing what has been lost or misplaced?

Eamonn my good friend, after watching each other these last few years, I can honestly say that you and I are cut from the same cloth (tartan?). If it seems that we dont back each other up sometimes, it usually because we are approaching the discussion from two difference angles. However, I can assure you that we agree on just about every aspect of older scouts. I have nothing against older scout programs of any type. I was an Explorer Scout when I was young and I remember those days as some of my best scouting. As a SM, I looked at all older scout programs as more resources to building better men. You mention that I have a problem with Venturing Patrols, well YES I DO! But only because they are usually used to rescue failing older scouts instead of giving the Troop more program to help scouts grow. Not only do they hurt the older scout program when they are used incorrectly, they also retard the younger scout program (10 to 13) as well. For scouts to grow, they must have role models to watch and if the oldest scouts are only 13 years old, that is basically the max maturity age the troop is limited too. If Troops used Venturing as another activity to develop growth, it would work well, but most of the time, Venturing Patrols are an after thought because the older scouts are getting bored and high adventure looks attractive to adults as well as older scouts. But in my opinion, if adults cant succeed with older scouts in their regular program, what makes them think they can do it better with another program? One of the reasons I like Ships and Explorer type program is because they appeal to youth who have a passion for that particular activity. I belonged to a Scuba Explorer post and had a blast hanging around girls in bikinis, I mean hanging around water, yes that is what I meant. Usually specialty programs succeed because the adults are very good at guiding in those skills and activities. The leadership and management skills are secondary in motivation to be in program, but are usually hard learned because they are required skills to create, plan and execute the activity. The passion of the activity drives the program from meeting to meeting. The most satisfied scouts (girls and boys) at all ages are ones who are constantly challenged both mentally and physically. We do that pretty well at first in the troop with the First Class advancement program. But once the scouts have met all the challenges of becoming a first class scout, the program becomes less directive in its intuitive nature. By design the troop is designed for older scouts to start moving into leadership, but in the last 20 years or so, we have started pushing the younger guys to be the leaders when they arent mentally ready for the challenge and dont have the skills to learn from leadership experiences. Boys 13 and younger learn very little from leadership responsibilities because they dont have the mind set to see leadership as a tool to achieve visions. If the young guys are the leaders, what can be left for a 15 year old who has been there and done that over and over, High Adventure? Well most scouts will tell you that you can only go rapelling so many times and how can a program wrapped around high adventure be challenging every week for an hour and a half at troop meetings. It cant and the programs fail. Boys are men looking to shed their boy skin. Tehy want to be adults and a Boy Scout troop is better equipped to do that than any other youth program in the world, when it is guided right. I have said many times before that the name itself (Venturing Patrol) is what hurts the program. While I admit that keeping older scouts around is a most difficult task, there are some basic rules that must still be applied no matter what you call your older scout program. The rules are; Role modeling is the primary means of growth at ALL ages, Older scouts learn most from guiding and leading younger scouts, Younger scouts learn most by watching older scouts, And satisfaction comes from being challenged both mentally and physically in Fun activities. When the older scouts are separated from the younger scouts, every scout from the NSP to the graduating 17 year olds suffer from boredom and lack of growth. That is not to say we cant have Venturing Patrols. We found the best way for this to work is to keep the activity venturing Patrols temperary until the trek is over. And it may even be an outside patrol where the scouts still belong to their regular patrol. Ive seen it work several ways. What you dont want is a program that has the appearance in operation of scouts 14 and older being a separate program from the rest of the troop. That troop will always struggle or be adult led. >>I really think that you are looking very long term. Sadly I'm not sure if a Troop with only a couple of older Scouts, will hold on to these older Scouts. Maybe the answer is making long term goals with the younger Scouts?

>>Eagledad, there's a hugh difference and your moniker says it all. The vast majority of adults involved with scouting, do so because they are a parent, or were a parent of a scout.

>>Let's face it. Having an age range that run's from 10.5 to 18 years old in the same program is challenging. Most 16-18 year old boys are not likely to want hang around 11 - 13 year old boys outside of scouting.

Have you sat down and explained your fears and frustrations and then asked them for ideas? The older scouts should be the Troop leaders, but for that to happen, the adults need "give" them that power. I find many troops say they are boy run, but the adults don't really give them any room to lead or more important fail. The adults really aren't thinking boy run. There is no reason why a 16 year old can't run a troop as good as the adults, but it does take time and growth development for a program to mature to that point. The adults have to lead in letting even the young scouts take responsibility for the performance of the troop. So I suggest, sitting down with your older scouts and handing your vision to them and asking for their help. Make them part of your team of leading the troop program toward your vision instead of thinking of them as the boys that need to be led by you to the vision. Saying all that, my experience are scouts 14 and older don't do program changes well. So if they aren't use to taking the lead, you won't likely see them make a huge shift that direction. Still, the effort has to be made if for no other reason than you need to practice working with boys in leadership development and giving the boy permission to be the troop leaders, and you need the younger scouts to witness the program that you are trying to develop. It can be done, I seen many times but it takes a few years of hard work, persistance, and patience. Still, these are all character traits that God loves to watch in all of us. Your scouts are lucky to have you as a leader, mentor and role model. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Returning to failed policies without a vision is irresponsible and should be considered neither religious nor moral

>>Once Churches get into the business of deciding policy for everyone else, then with that decision comes the inevitable responsibilities that follow, which will almost surely become "bad laws".

>>Those who are only interested in the prestige and bragging rights of beig an Eagle Scout could then leave and those who want to learn what Scouting has to teach can stick around.

To answer the question, there will likely be only little review between the WB staff and the ASM, and no review between the WB staff and your SM. You guys are on your own. It sounds as is if you dont have anyone WB trained other than this ASM, which could cause more problems if you Troop is intimidated by him. However, the WB experience does not give anyone permission to have and upperhand over scouters without the experience. We had a somewhat similar problem and in the end, it took the CC and UC telling the ASM the she was no longer welcome to the meetings to stop a year long frustration with her. She eventually left our troop for another, then another. Our Troop was her second troop. My suggestion is the sooner your adults sit down and firmly lay out the program with this adult, the less aggravation your adults and scouts will have to deal with in the near future. Scouting is a great youth program until the adults get involved. Barry

>>If their boys are not getting to Eagle with enough leadership skills then it is a leadership problem within the troop. And the SM and Committee needs to address that and not add requirements.

>How sad. I agree that when the discussion degenerates into "and I bet you support pedophilia, too. wink, wink, nudge, nudge", yes it is time for the subject to move on.

>>Not a construct of man alone. The only thing that is a construct of man (through the Bible) is that homosexuality is a sin. Or do swans, penguins, and rams commit sin?

>>So I guess these federal benefits not available in civil unions are irrelevant and unimportant:

>>also find your view of the APA interesting, especially that "A very large portion of the group are openly gay, so Im told." Well, I believe you've been told wrong. > But their recommendations (such as this) are based on research and data, not on opinions and agendas. I understand that letting scientific data override religious fanaticism is not a popular stance in these days, but I'll take data over doctrine anytime.

I believe that there was an "elitism was viewed as a general attitude in the old WB course in many Councils. I don't see how that can happen in the new course because the staffs are pushed to recruit, I think, at least 30% new staffers. There was an elitism attitude in our Council with the old course, but the new course requirements basically drove it out. If there elitism in your Council, I think it is local. Maybe you should volunteer to be a test case for your unit. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>So, in fact, does the American Psychiatric Association, so you are going to be hard pressed to define it as "abnormal" in any sense other than a Biblical one (and a Biblical interpretation considered faulty by the many Christian denominations and theologians, at that). But I guess I don't count, since I'm not a Christian, and therefore can't really be religious or moral.

This is to much. >> I for one do not seen the omnipotent creator as anything but a loving God.

I should have followed with Im sorry for your experience. In general camping should be some of the best of scouting. Im sure it will be on the next campout. Even now the adults of the cub scout group may be asking each other how to get their guys to behave more properly around other scout groups. Barry