Eagledad

Diversity and inclusion are leadership qualities? What about the rest of us? You just supported Joebob's point. Barry

In the context of this lawsuit, the BSA isn't rotten, nor does it have a dark side. The organization has given society a program that only intends to build better citizens. It is that simple. People can be rotten and induce a dark side of themselves on unsuspecting innocent families, but that has nothing to do with the BSA or it's programs. If one can't see this reality, they likely need to get as far away as possible so as not to pollute the minds of the innocent. There is no doubt in my mind that if the good of scouting from it's beginning could be measured against the bad that occurred over the same time period, the minuscule bad would be impossible to measure against the vast enormity of the good. Barry

I don't know about corporate donors, I know a lot of them left years ago before BSA changed the gay membership policy when the BSA was being painted as a conservative organization. Would they come back? Most private donors are alumni with strong memories. Would they want to continue giving to an after school program under a different name? I personally believe more harm would come from a name change because I don't think Boy Scouts of American is very damaged. I could be wrong, but I've not heard much negative chit chat of the BSA. If this forum is evidence of the population, most folks who speak negatively have a personal vendetta against the organization. And that is a small group with a personal experience in the program. Barry

My wife and I are looking for some normalcy from Covid and were excited to watch some of our favorite shows. Only to find ourselves changing the channel because the shows are focusing on Covid. I think a pleasant distraction from the stress of today's situation would be very welcome. Barry

Lawyers will certainly gain in the end, but they are just a tool for the means to an end. I mentioned before of a discussion where a gay activist said their mission was to culturally demean any intuition who infers homosexuality as immoral. When he was asked about the institution's overall good for the culture, he didn't care one way or the other. I believe most folks who going after the BSA are like the gay activist, they don't care if the Boy Scout program survives to do good things, they just want their pound' of flesh, so to speak,. If the BSA survives, fine. Not a priority, but ok. Could it be that the only surviving national scouting program will be the sexist GSUSA? Barry

The Girl Scout program lost its vision much the same way by replacing character building activities with lectures, instructions, and advancement social exercises. The BSA always had the superior program because boys learned through their actions. GSUSA assumes theirs scouts will be better leaders simply by telling them they are better leaders. I knew National lost their way when they added the Leadership Development Aim last year. This mb is just anther example. Barry

Our troop was a out door boy run centered program. Advancement was never encourage over any other method. In fact, the PLC was responsible for applying all the methods and advancement was never high on their list. In 5 years time, our troop was 2nd only to an Eagle Mill with the number of Eagles in the district. The struggle here is convincing adults that a healthy advancement program is the biproduct of a healthy outdoor patrol method program. Maybe if the adults hear this over and over, they might give it a chance. Barry

I learned the lesson in the pack. We had 3 really good CCs who were job transferred in one year. The loses didn't affect us much because each CC brought in a really good assistant who shared the work. I personally believe that CC is the most important adult in the unit because they are responsible for recruiting each position, including the CM and SM. The CC should have a good understanding of the unit mission and goals and remind the adults now and then of those goals. The CC should insure each scouter is trained for their specific tasks. I believe that good Scoutmastering skills requires several years of practice toward the goals for the scouts. But, that is only if the SM has goals. Most SMs don't have goals specific to individual scouts (other than Eagle), they have agendas. They have the agenda of a weekly meeting, monthly campout and yearly summer camp and they make sure the everything is in order to make those agendas happen. Then there are the SMs with the goals of a youth program that runs itself without any attendance from the adults. That style of Scoutmastering is less about unit agendas and more about a culture of independence, personal growth, and using the oath and law. The scouts take care of the meetings, campouts and summer camps in that troop. And the SM guides the adults of the culture and develops them knowing one of them will be the next SM of the mission. Barry

As I've said before, I believe the critique comes from the wrong expectation of what is being trained. I believe staffs are much of the problem with expectation as the participants. Until National markets the expectation better, the course will continue to disappoint a lot of folks. Barry

No, it was exclusionary because they only wanted experienced scouters who were going to continue working with scouts. Why waist time teach advanced skills to someone going to leave scouting. Nothing sinister or self-serving. I have a feeling this royalty idea was pushed by jealous non WB scouters. Some folks don't want to work for the stature that makes them like themselves better. Oh of course there are always bad actors and some WoodBadgers probably pushed his stature too hard. But, I never met one like that from the old course in our area. Barry

I'm not sure this really comes under the political heading. I know politics exposes the issue, but the very people that threatened the GSUSA for their congratulatory tweet are likely the same people who support women's equality. This comes more under "All people are equal! But some people are more equal than others". All kinds of irony. Barry

Oh, we'll probably keep supporting the Girl Scouts. They have been a political pawn since the 70s and we still support them. Even though they are the most sexist youth scouting organization, probably in the world, it's hard to turn down those cute little innocent faces. Strangely, Girl Scouts older than 7 have never come to our door to sell cookies. Do you think the older Scouts know I was a BSA Scoutmaster? There are no signs in the yard that would hint of my past volunteerisms, I try not to stir things up in the neighborhood. But I do keep a nice lawn. I wonder! Barry

I could not find the quote you posted, but it's been a long night in an ice storm. You are right about lighting the candle instead of curing the darkness. When I was teaching SM Specific, the two questions that came up often during the course were discipline and dealing with bad leadership. The challenge for adults is developing the patience to not take over before the scouts learns enough about themselves to know where they have to change. It's not just leadership that is the challenge, it's personal habits of behavior. I found that most scouts will accomplish the will of the adults if they are pushed hard enough. But, giving the adults what they want doesn't help the scout grow or change. In fact, the scout is likely to resent the adults so much that they react in the opposite direct and rebel. Rebellion is typically the reaction of being forced to do something that they don't understand. The adults, as you say, need to give just enough light to the darkness to give confidence for the next step forward. The scout must be the one who decides to take another step forward, or a step back. A positive step forward maybe when the scout decides to withdraw from the responsibility because they found their limits. Maturity isn't instant, it has to grow. It has to be the scouts decision to have a positive impact on their growth. Barry

Pre 2000. Doesn’t matter which one for this discussion. Barryl

Yes, however the discussions today generally lead to a desire of a syllabus more like the old WB.. But there was a reason why it changed, thus repeating history. We don't want to do that. Barry

I see two sides approaching many of these topics that deal with the structure of the program. One side see's all the social issues being the cause of the membership loss trends. The other side see how past program issues cause the membership loss trends. Sometimes the two sides don't want to consider the other causes. So, each side spends more time reinforcing their opinions. Woodbadge was a leadership course that was completely changed for the new generation of leaders. However, it is marketed with the expectation of the old syllabus with a modern approach. Participants have the expectation of learning the skills of the old course and are disappointed when they feel it lacking. I personally think it is a good course, but is marketed wrong. Barry

I did, and I think of them often. Some of them (or their parents) have contacted me just to brag of how different their lives are because of scouting. Building a good scouting program was the hardest thing I ever did. It was so worth it. Barry

Agreed. My experience is that units that don't plan for succession don't have the resources for such a plan. The reason many feel threatened or forced is because there was no choices when the adult left without the committee filling the space. And many times that space is the CC. If we really wanted to get serious about this, we would ask assistance from district and council to provide more consistent training and direct contact assistance. But, on their own, unit leaders struggle to keep their heads above water with the youth program. Succession Planning is a luxury they don't feel they have. By the way, there is a focus here on SM and CM, but in my experience, the Webelo's leader position is the most challenging to find follow-on leadership. Which contributes the the huge membership loss at the cub level. Barry

There is one part in the discussion that is being missed, it's the culture that should guide everyone in the troop, not the adults. The Mission is to build moral and ethical decision makers using the Scout Law to guide them. Type A Scouts aren't rewarded more because the actions of their personality require less encouragement, introverts are rewarded equally because they are shaped by the culture of expectations for everyone's actions in the troop. If the expectations are to be servant to everyone (Scout Law), then the expectations for everyone are equal. I saw this over and over, when the need arises, the introvert steps up because that is expected of them in that moment. Introverts are always impressive because they appear to step out beyond their personality. But in reality, they are just doing what they've been watching what all the scouts are doing in the culture everyday. Where training fails the adults is convincing them that what scouts SEE is what they learn. They don't have to be THE leader to turn learn the habits of leadership. If the Scouts see leadership over and over, that is how they will lead (give or take) when their moment arrives. Scouts don't need leadership training to lead because they will act as they have seen others actions. A mature troop requires little leadership development. Of course some scouts are just better leaders because they change their style by the reactions of their decisions. But, that is a personality behavior. I use leadership actions as an example, but the same idea works through all the culture. The scouts learn expectations of the culture (good decisions). If the adults encourage a culture of expectations and accountability, the culture will teach and encourage the scouts to make better decisions. The culture is the "guards rails" not the adults. And it works very well when the adults encourage it. Where the adults come back into the picture is when something unexpected challenges the expectations of the culture, then the mentor steps in and ask questions to push for a the brain to create a solution based on the scout law. Usually discipline for really bad decisions is what pops up. Bob threatened to Steve with his walking stick. How should we handle that. And, usually that happens with the SPL approaching the SM. "We had and incident that I need some help figuring out how to deal with it". My experience is that the program will eventually mature to a place that whatever the SPL brings will be a challenge to the adults. Scouting is called a safe place. Most adults take that as meaning that scouts are safe from predictors. But actually it means that scouts are safe to make bad decisions and learn from them. That means that adults have the attitude that bad decisions turn into good habits. Of course some bad decisions like intentionally trying to hurt another person has to be dealt with more appropriately, but I found that adults acting disappointed instead of acting angry is the best action in an environment where making bad choice is acceptable. My son once told me that the scouts would much rather I yelled than to act disappointed. I don't know why, but silence has a lot more power to correct. My point of this post is to start thinking of how adults should encourage a culture of expectations with consequences that are based from intent of decisions. Honestly, the Scout Law is outstanding for doing that because each point is selfless action for bettering the other person. The Scout Law encourages a servant culture. A self serving decision becomes quite obvious in a servant culture. Barry

The policy in our troop was that ALL adults except the SM had to get the SPL's permission to attend the PLC. The SM only attended for brief 5 minute visits. The parents embraced the rule because it was part of our boy run program. This came from one of my WB Ticket items where I visited 5 different troop PLC meetings. Only one of those five troops gave the SPL autonomy to run the meeting and no adults were allowed. I duplicated the policy and the it worked very well. Barry

Show me that quote " In context".

Your just using narrow scope nip picky specifics to feel relevant. I know what I know and your post doesn't provide anything useful for anyone. And You miss the point. There is plenty of studies over the years that contradict both sides. So what! I respect qwazes desire for girls in scouting. I think his resources are sound. I don't respect him using condescending terms to reinforce point. Does anyone gain from it? At best he just continues the defiance. At worst, he drives folks away that might have otherwise wanted to learn. If his post is so strong to stand alone, then he should provide it by itself without being condescending.

I believe Mormon units have been allowed use single gender leaders. I could go on and on, but what's the point. You want to set your personal standard on others while trying to appear open mind with your Local Option. Barry

That's not sexist. That is a different opinion based on different information. Shesh. Your supporting my point that you can't (won't) have an open mind because you risk loosing ground on your opinion. Even though you control your opinion. Are you afraid the other person jut might change you mind? Do you really think your information is the only information on the subject? Does personal experience that doesn't agree with your information count for anything. Seems like folks today can only have a discussion if they feel they have the upper hand. Scoutlike? Even scientist differ on opinions based from personal evidence. As an engineer, I often have different opinions with other engineers even though our numbers are an exact and don't have an opinion.. Barry

You had me up to here. What is the point of the local option if some options are off the table? All the examples you gave for supporting the local option are political in nature to some degree. This is exactly why many posters (pro gays included) didn't support the local option. How can the local option give COs room to provide a program if the CO is given limited options based on perception. I thought the whole idea of the local option was to give the BSA a break on perception. Barry