Eagledad

After a few years of working with parents, we learned to put the new leaders in kind of a troop training for the first couple of months. It pretty much is what Venividi is suggesting. The SM or a very experience ASM usually has coffee ready for the new leaders at meetings and holds them together to discuss troop proceedures. I like the pie idea. It is better with the SM because it shows how well the Troop functions under the leadership of the SPL and PLC. But the SM has confrences to attend also so a good ASM is needed. We spend time watching a PLC meeting and discussing how it worked, who led and the role of the one of adult (SM) in the meeting. We show them how Patrol Corners works and discuss that as well. This is a good time to do all the basic trainings as well including safe swim, Merit Badge Counselors, and even understanding G2SS. We try and let the adults watch each part of the scout meeting for a couple of months and encourage discussion so that we can explain the value of how the adults fit in. We try to encrourage the new adults to basically watch for at least six months before they start diving in. A year in some jobs. But I find that summer camp is pretty much where the new adults really start to understand "boy run" and the light bulb turns on. Many troops put new leaders in charge of NSPs, but we put our most experienced and best leaders in charge of that group. Many troops like to get the adults active right off the bat and I agree if they aren't close to the boys. I found that boy run just takes a little while to understand. Once they get it, then they get if well. It is important that the SM talk to the adults a lot of the hows and whys so that all the adults understand and buy in to the goals of the program. It is also important the New Parents who aren't involved in leadership still understand the program as well. Most problems occure from the mysteries of the program like why don't parents get more calls or why isn't their son earning rank faster? I think at least one parents meeting per month for the first three months works really well. The "getting ready for summer camp" meeting being the last. After that everybody is pretty much on board. Good question. Barry Barry

I don't think that is a train coming, it is opportunity with a flash light coming to help. Now is the time to teach why you do scouting the way you do. The SM carries the torch of philosophy for the troop. Most folks do not want that responsibility, so they take a part on the committee. But most people get excited to be part of a program when the philosophy make sense. I like to teach that a successful SM spends at least 50% of his/her time talking with the adults because troops run so much better when everyone feels a part of the SMs program. Yep, most SMs would love to see that light coming. Your scouts are going to have a great year. Barry

This is one of those kinds of situations where I think all the leaders need to sit down and understand their role to the pack. I'm not trying to push Wood Badge, but this is where the course teaches the Four Phases of Team Building. Step one (Forming) is getting organized and understanding 1. the goal of the pack, and 2. what each person's role is toward that goal. Step 2 (Storming) which is usally where the team hammers out each others boundaries to their roles or jobs. The more your team understands the team goal and their specific part to the team at the begining of the team building, the less storming or frustration each member of the team will have to endure as the pack works with your sons. So I suggest getting everyone, not just the SM, but everyone to a meeting to read and learn what the BSA says is the pack's goal, and what each persons responsibilities are toward reaching that goal. Let the discussion start after that. Hope that helps. Barry

>>Scoutmaster and Committee Chair need to get their act together and then talk with this parent together.

>>Its often easier to admit to misbehaving than admit to being dumb.

>>Mission statements and visions are nothing more than fluff

>>When it finally comes to a head the adults, being human, are just not willing to listen to an explanation from the boy who just stepped on their last nerve and is having a run in with a boy that has not caused any trouble at all. It is not fair but it is understandable.

I always wondered why baseball managers got away with so much before getting kicked out. Its because some bad behavior is OK, just now all bad behavior. Thanks for the explanation. I have one too. Our local soccer association had trouble with the refs not calling bad language. Most of the problem occurred from the older teenage refs who also played the game. It was found they allowed the language because they like to use it themselves. The refs said it was hard to punish players on some words while not on other words, so they pretty much left that rule alone. The parents had a different idea and now no bad language is allowed. To the parents it was all bad, so they forced the association to act. I think what you are really saying OGE is it is up to the adults of the unit to use what ever ability and creativity within their means to restrict a boys behavior. I will accept that. I remember a scouter here once said that if scouts were talking after lights out, they were threatened with being sent home. I remember thinking that talking after lights out was one of my favorite ways of teaching the SPL how to control his scouts. I guess we all have different a straw that breaks the camels back. Barry

I think we adults don't carry the baggage of adolescences like competing for position within the group and working past the urge to sit when voluntarily helping a patrol mate cook or do KP makes the patrol method more fun for the group. It is easy for adults because we want a functioning team and we are willing to make that happen. Youth struggle with the idea of their friend telling them what to do. I think what is really important is taking the feeling of the experience and working to find that within your scouts. Dont duplicate your experience, but instead work the patrol the boys method until they achieve the same excitement and satisfaction with their patrols. I had a discussion with a professional scouter who told me one big reason they change WB was because they saw too many problems with adults going back and trying to duplicate their experience of WB on to the boys. Instead of using the independence designed into the patrol method, the adults unintentionally were restricting patrol method by forcing the boys to function like thier WB experience. Have a great day. Barry

>>I didn't think SM or ASM's needed to be detectives I just thought they needed to be fair.

Looking at the discussion and how I worked with simular situations in our troop, the word that hangs me up here is punishment. I guess I've looked at our program growth in wisdom by experience, not changes encourage by fear of retribution. Not that there isn't punishment in the program because we all have to account for our actions one way or the other, that is life. But scouting is a place to change from our own self motivations, not from fear of someone else. But in this situation and most like it, some are trying to hard to find a punishment for all the players when I feel what you really want is the scouts to understand the failure of holding each other accountible. If a scout misuses a knife and does some damage to equipment, he deserves to be held accountible by some kind of action. But the scouts around him, while didn't act to stop him, also need to be held accountible for allowing the act to take place in the first place. Problem is the motivation of the one lone scout is different from the others. Whether ignorance or hesitation, they are two different acts of making a wrong choice, so that required different methods of accountibility. Our job is to teach the wisdom of the right choice in most all the actions of the scouts, and to be consistant. Eammon may be right in that a scout may have many reasons why he didn't stop the other scout and thus punishment could only make things worse. But the scout still made the wrong choice and there must be an understanding of that as well as the results from that choice. Punishment? Honestly, I'm not sure I ever used that word in scouting even for the worst of behaviors. I'm a big picture kind of person and to me the decision to allow the scout cut the tent was worse in the big picture than the act itself because the inability for the other scouts to stop the scout. For what ever reason, they didn't stop the misbehavior. Theoretically, the SM is the Master Scouter or leader of wisdom for the troop. It is this time when the scout must learn and understand why each scout failed each other. SCouting is a brotherhood and these scouts did not act like brothers. In the larger picture, if the scouts don't learn to act now, how will they learn it as adults in their community? HOw will they learn to stand up and say hey, that is wrong? I found that in general, our youth are not taught or given permission to hold others accountible. Adults always take on the role of judement and givers of accountibility, be it punishment or praise. This is particularly a problem in boy run programs because no matter how much we tell the scouts they are encharge, in the back of their mind they are only encharge until the adults judge that they are doing it wrong and take it back over. I know it took three years before I felt the scout started to trust they the adults wouldn't step in and take it back over. But I find most adults do react by taking over. The problem here is we never really allow our youth to be our brothers keeper. Our children are waiting for the adults to takeover, just as they did in the case here. We have not given the youth permission to be a judge and to act on other peoples behaviors. We serve our children but we don't let them practice serving others. No wonder parenting is so hard, our generation today doesn't know how to say stop, that will hurt you. It took me three kids to figure out how to change behavoir without raising my voice. Thank goodness the girl came last because she is the hardest. So is it really fair to punish the scouts who didn't stop the one scout. Is it fair to assume that one friend should have put his friendship on the line to stop the other friend when likely that scout never has been expected to act like that before. Do these scout understand the idea of serventhood all the time. We talk about the Scout Law a lot, but how many times do we talk about doing our best to God, county and helping other people at ALL times. The oath teaches us that serving others before ourselves is the only unselfish way to serve ourselves. It is a complete 180 turn from how our youth are raised. Who knows what was going through their minds, but I as the SM, I have the power and ability to set a vision of expectation in the minds of all my scouts. Every scout should be set on equal footing to see the vision and understand reason behind it. We adults need to give permission to be noble. The choice to stand up and speak against your friend takes courage and that action needs its rewards. But even more important is the action to acknowledge that the friend standing up to stop your action is right. There is nobility in being humble and that I think takes even more courage. The rewards of humility needs its own acknowledgement or it will always be seen a weak or foreign. How can boys understand this concept if someone doesn't set in the scouts minds and explain its virtues? Does this dicussion change if we for the moment replace punishment with accoutibility or understanding? Punishment is retribution, accountibility is acknowledgement of understanding. The whole idea of scouting is encouraging scouts to change their behavior for the rewards of better character. We can't change their behavior for them, we can only show the wisdom in them taking charge and doing it. They have to make the change and the only way they will do that is to understand the cause and effects of values. THere is great value in being our brother's keeper and the lesson here shouldn't be missed. Have a great weekend all. Barry

Night camporees are always fun just because they are so completely different from the usual campout. Any theme can work really. We've done a few, but Cliff Golden who is on this list has done several. I think he used to have a Web Site. Barry

>>Before we take any action we would need to be sure of the facts. Maybe they did nothing because they just didn't know. I agree that doing nothing shouldn't be an option. I just don't agree that group punishment is the way to go.

Ive said it before that I think the Uniform Method is the hardest Method for adults and easiest for the Scouts. In general I find that there are two styles of ideals being presented in these types of discussions: One is applying the Methods on the scouts as a group equally, the other is applying the Methods on each individually. When you apply the Method as a group, it comes off more as an enforcement of a rule or law because the scout basically isnt left with a choice. When the Methods are applied to scouts individually, generally the intent is to teach or coach the scout to understand the logic of the intended reasoning of the Method and letting him make the choice. My experience is large troops apply methods more at the group because they lack the resources to apply them on individual basis. On the other hand, sometimes the smaller troops let the scout make the choice, but dont give any reasoning for making any choice or an expectation of right or wrong. The proper uniform is addressed in the scouts handbook, so there is no need to list a proper uniform, its really only a matter of morally justifying the choice made. I love asking scouts why they do what they do, dont you? Barry

I agree. Our scouts learned that when ever I was called to deal with misbehavior, or saw it myself and went to deal with it, all scouts within site of the act where held as accountable as the scout who misbehaved. As you pointed out, the actions of the scout law are not intended as actions to himself, but to everyone around him. If we don't learn to hold each other accountable for bad behavior, then how do we maintain a civil society? I hope this reply applies appropriately because I have not participated in the other thread. Have a great day all. Barry

Ahh, it makes more sense now. This thread made me think back to all the difficult scouts we took to summer camp. There were several. Some of those scouts just plain wore out our adult staff, so I do relate. This doesnt have anything to do with this subject or your post, but I remember after one such summer camp asking the parents of one mentally retarded scout to look for a different troop for their son. We also had his older brother, also retarded but he needs weren't near as demanding. We all knew it was a trial to see if this scout could fit, but he just required too much special attention that we couldnt give. The parents understood and agreed, but it still hurts to think back on the conversation. I am not judging your post at all, so dont take this as advice to your original question, but sometimes difficult scouts can help shape the character of the adult staff. Scouting is great when it is easy, but even the bible says character is formed during our trials and struggles. This might be cause for reflection. Maybe your staffs goals need some tweaking or parts of the program could use some tuning up. But for a moment, look to see if there is an opportunity here. The other question that keeps coming to mind is what would the parents say if you asked them what they want from your Troop? Not what their son would get, but what they want. Im curious. Hey, thanks for the well thought out reply, have a great scouting week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>As the imagineers we can do better.

>>Since the trailer is owned by the CO, I think it is their responsibility to cover that, so far they haven't done so.

>>Since the trailer is owned by the CO, I think it is their responsibility to cover that, so far they haven't done so.

>>Although this is probably the best experience we've had with this Scout, I don't really see the point of him staying in the troop to go to summer camp once a year and not really get anything done. Scouting is a game with a purpose.

I'm not surprised at all that parents want to stay in contact with their kids, but I don't think it is so much from being hooked on technology as it is separation from a loved one. Through the years, I found that parents initiated their fear of their son leaving for summer camp weeks before they left camp. That many times led to the homesickness problems that followed to camp. For most parents, summer camp is the first time they won't see their son for several days at a time. They have to grow and mature into the experience as much, if not more, than their kids. I eventually started teaching the parents how to prepare themselves and their sons for the trip by talking only of the positive aspects that will come from the experience. There still be some pain from the slight separation, but overall, the experience will be wonderful. That seems to help alleviate most of the homesickness leaving us with the most severe cases. Barry

>>Feeling well tonight - sure do love this Scouting stuff.

>>Dan, We had about 20-23 portages. On our 3rd day we had back to back 120 rod portages. I still don't like em

>>Teaching good behavior is part of the Scouting program.It is part of the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly part of the program. This is taught primarily by the Scoutmaster, the Assistant Scoutmasters and the youth leaders in a troop.

Hi all, what a great 106 degrees day in Oklahoma. >>I also disagree with your conclusions. If you have mixed age patrols, there is no need for troop guides - thus less youth leadership. If you have a group of 11 to 12 year olds in a patrol, one of them gets blessed with a leadership experience (something all should get for 30 days if you follow the BSA program).