Eagledad

>>I didn't think SM or ASM's needed to be detectives I just thought they needed to be fair.

Looking at the discussion and how I worked with simular situations in our troop, the word that hangs me up here is punishment. I guess I've looked at our program growth in wisdom by experience, not changes encourage by fear of retribution. Not that there isn't punishment in the program because we all have to account for our actions one way or the other, that is life. But scouting is a place to change from our own self motivations, not from fear of someone else. But in this situation and most like it, some are trying to hard to find a punishment for all the players when I feel what you really want is the scouts to understand the failure of holding each other accountible. If a scout misuses a knife and does some damage to equipment, he deserves to be held accountible by some kind of action. But the scouts around him, while didn't act to stop him, also need to be held accountible for allowing the act to take place in the first place. Problem is the motivation of the one lone scout is different from the others. Whether ignorance or hesitation, they are two different acts of making a wrong choice, so that required different methods of accountibility. Our job is to teach the wisdom of the right choice in most all the actions of the scouts, and to be consistant. Eammon may be right in that a scout may have many reasons why he didn't stop the other scout and thus punishment could only make things worse. But the scout still made the wrong choice and there must be an understanding of that as well as the results from that choice. Punishment? Honestly, I'm not sure I ever used that word in scouting even for the worst of behaviors. I'm a big picture kind of person and to me the decision to allow the scout cut the tent was worse in the big picture than the act itself because the inability for the other scouts to stop the scout. For what ever reason, they didn't stop the misbehavior. Theoretically, the SM is the Master Scouter or leader of wisdom for the troop. It is this time when the scout must learn and understand why each scout failed each other. SCouting is a brotherhood and these scouts did not act like brothers. In the larger picture, if the scouts don't learn to act now, how will they learn it as adults in their community? HOw will they learn to stand up and say hey, that is wrong? I found that in general, our youth are not taught or given permission to hold others accountible. Adults always take on the role of judement and givers of accountibility, be it punishment or praise. This is particularly a problem in boy run programs because no matter how much we tell the scouts they are encharge, in the back of their mind they are only encharge until the adults judge that they are doing it wrong and take it back over. I know it took three years before I felt the scout started to trust they the adults wouldn't step in and take it back over. But I find most adults do react by taking over. The problem here is we never really allow our youth to be our brothers keeper. Our children are waiting for the adults to takeover, just as they did in the case here. We have not given the youth permission to be a judge and to act on other peoples behaviors. We serve our children but we don't let them practice serving others. No wonder parenting is so hard, our generation today doesn't know how to say stop, that will hurt you. It took me three kids to figure out how to change behavoir without raising my voice. Thank goodness the girl came last because she is the hardest. So is it really fair to punish the scouts who didn't stop the one scout. Is it fair to assume that one friend should have put his friendship on the line to stop the other friend when likely that scout never has been expected to act like that before. Do these scout understand the idea of serventhood all the time. We talk about the Scout Law a lot, but how many times do we talk about doing our best to God, county and helping other people at ALL times. The oath teaches us that serving others before ourselves is the only unselfish way to serve ourselves. It is a complete 180 turn from how our youth are raised. Who knows what was going through their minds, but I as the SM, I have the power and ability to set a vision of expectation in the minds of all my scouts. Every scout should be set on equal footing to see the vision and understand reason behind it. We adults need to give permission to be noble. The choice to stand up and speak against your friend takes courage and that action needs its rewards. But even more important is the action to acknowledge that the friend standing up to stop your action is right. There is nobility in being humble and that I think takes even more courage. The rewards of humility needs its own acknowledgement or it will always be seen a weak or foreign. How can boys understand this concept if someone doesn't set in the scouts minds and explain its virtues? Does this dicussion change if we for the moment replace punishment with accoutibility or understanding? Punishment is retribution, accountibility is acknowledgement of understanding. The whole idea of scouting is encouraging scouts to change their behavior for the rewards of better character. We can't change their behavior for them, we can only show the wisdom in them taking charge and doing it. They have to make the change and the only way they will do that is to understand the cause and effects of values. THere is great value in being our brother's keeper and the lesson here shouldn't be missed. Have a great weekend all. Barry

Night camporees are always fun just because they are so completely different from the usual campout. Any theme can work really. We've done a few, but Cliff Golden who is on this list has done several. I think he used to have a Web Site. Barry

>>Before we take any action we would need to be sure of the facts. Maybe they did nothing because they just didn't know. I agree that doing nothing shouldn't be an option. I just don't agree that group punishment is the way to go.

Ive said it before that I think the Uniform Method is the hardest Method for adults and easiest for the Scouts. In general I find that there are two styles of ideals being presented in these types of discussions: One is applying the Methods on the scouts as a group equally, the other is applying the Methods on each individually. When you apply the Method as a group, it comes off more as an enforcement of a rule or law because the scout basically isnt left with a choice. When the Methods are applied to scouts individually, generally the intent is to teach or coach the scout to understand the logic of the intended reasoning of the Method and letting him make the choice. My experience is large troops apply methods more at the group because they lack the resources to apply them on individual basis. On the other hand, sometimes the smaller troops let the scout make the choice, but dont give any reasoning for making any choice or an expectation of right or wrong. The proper uniform is addressed in the scouts handbook, so there is no need to list a proper uniform, its really only a matter of morally justifying the choice made. I love asking scouts why they do what they do, dont you? Barry

I agree. Our scouts learned that when ever I was called to deal with misbehavior, or saw it myself and went to deal with it, all scouts within site of the act where held as accountable as the scout who misbehaved. As you pointed out, the actions of the scout law are not intended as actions to himself, but to everyone around him. If we don't learn to hold each other accountable for bad behavior, then how do we maintain a civil society? I hope this reply applies appropriately because I have not participated in the other thread. Have a great day all. Barry

Ahh, it makes more sense now. This thread made me think back to all the difficult scouts we took to summer camp. There were several. Some of those scouts just plain wore out our adult staff, so I do relate. This doesnt have anything to do with this subject or your post, but I remember after one such summer camp asking the parents of one mentally retarded scout to look for a different troop for their son. We also had his older brother, also retarded but he needs weren't near as demanding. We all knew it was a trial to see if this scout could fit, but he just required too much special attention that we couldnt give. The parents understood and agreed, but it still hurts to think back on the conversation. I am not judging your post at all, so dont take this as advice to your original question, but sometimes difficult scouts can help shape the character of the adult staff. Scouting is great when it is easy, but even the bible says character is formed during our trials and struggles. This might be cause for reflection. Maybe your staffs goals need some tweaking or parts of the program could use some tuning up. But for a moment, look to see if there is an opportunity here. The other question that keeps coming to mind is what would the parents say if you asked them what they want from your Troop? Not what their son would get, but what they want. Im curious. Hey, thanks for the well thought out reply, have a great scouting week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>As the imagineers we can do better.

>>Since the trailer is owned by the CO, I think it is their responsibility to cover that, so far they haven't done so.

>>Since the trailer is owned by the CO, I think it is their responsibility to cover that, so far they haven't done so.

>>Although this is probably the best experience we've had with this Scout, I don't really see the point of him staying in the troop to go to summer camp once a year and not really get anything done. Scouting is a game with a purpose.

I'm not surprised at all that parents want to stay in contact with their kids, but I don't think it is so much from being hooked on technology as it is separation from a loved one. Through the years, I found that parents initiated their fear of their son leaving for summer camp weeks before they left camp. That many times led to the homesickness problems that followed to camp. For most parents, summer camp is the first time they won't see their son for several days at a time. They have to grow and mature into the experience as much, if not more, than their kids. I eventually started teaching the parents how to prepare themselves and their sons for the trip by talking only of the positive aspects that will come from the experience. There still be some pain from the slight separation, but overall, the experience will be wonderful. That seems to help alleviate most of the homesickness leaving us with the most severe cases. Barry

>>Feeling well tonight - sure do love this Scouting stuff.

>>Dan, We had about 20-23 portages. On our 3rd day we had back to back 120 rod portages. I still don't like em

>>Teaching good behavior is part of the Scouting program.It is part of the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly part of the program. This is taught primarily by the Scoutmaster, the Assistant Scoutmasters and the youth leaders in a troop.

Hi all, what a great 106 degrees day in Oklahoma. >>I also disagree with your conclusions. If you have mixed age patrols, there is no need for troop guides - thus less youth leadership. If you have a group of 11 to 12 year olds in a patrol, one of them gets blessed with a leadership experience (something all should get for 30 days if you follow the BSA program).

This is one of my favorite subjects and some really good stuff has been said. I found that no matter how much training you give to scouts, they will still bring stuff like hair gel on a hike. Yes, hair gel and he was an older scout. Anyways, I like a hike where the scout has a chance to lighten the pack on a second day and feel the difference. As for scouts physically fit for the trips, I have always had one scout on each trek who struggles to complete the day. He usually is the bigger athletic scout that nobody would expect to struggle. I have come to believe that fatigue and endurance are more mental than physical and usually is not exposed on short shakedown hikes. I have found that external frame backpacks work better for young scouts. Internal frame packs are typically more complicated adjust the fit and have less compartments to organize gear. External packs are simple to pack and usually much simpler to adjust. As the scouts get better at packing and understanding how to adjust packs, they can move up to an external frame pack. The Kelty Yukon and Jansport Scout are two excellent starter external packs that are reasonable priced and can be re-adjusted to fit as the scout grows. Also, the most important part of any pack is the hip belt. Weight is carried on the hips, not the shoulders, so when looking for a pack, make sure the hip belt fits well and has room to be cinched in. Scouts will loose an inch or two during a long hike and if the belt cant be cinched in to compensate, the scouts AND ADULTSS shoulders will suffer Greatly. Some wisdom comes from great pains than others. Finally, I suggest leaders try to learn how to adjust packs because I find that I usually spend the first two hours of the first shakedown hike and the second morning of the trek hike re-adjusting the scouts packs for a more comfortable fit. It isn't always the weight, but many times the fit that discourages a scout from backpacking. Fun discussion. No wonder I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All Looking back, I've come to believe that 50% of the Scoutmasters job is to work with the adults: Partly to evaluate the performance of the programs and partly to reaffirm the vision of the program. I can't say that we had any kind of planned meeting to do this, but I do remember that we evaluated the program a lot after troop meetings, on the way to camps and from camps, at campfire after the scout went to bed, and even through Email. I think we were a bit anal about it really, especially the first few years because we knew to achieve the kind of boy run program we envisioned, we needed to change as performance indicated. We gradually learned that the adults had to change faster than the scouts learned just to stay out of their way. If I were ever a SM again, I would try to make some kind of planned agenda for such meetings. But it is important that the meetings have purpose because we are a busy society and I hate to take time from others just so I can preach. I would likely have those meetings at my house with the barbecue fired up in the backyard. I only want to add, that the troop adults need to understand the troop program well enough to explain it to the parents, a lot. Most problems that occur between the parents and troops occur from misunderstandings. I even handed out a copy of the Aims and Methods to my parents every six months, which Im sure most threw away. However, as we did this, we found that misunderstandings were replace with total support of our program. Great question. Barry

>>Lotsa talk about summer camp... what do you do to make it more fun and comfortable for both yourself and your scouts?

Yes, a pat on the back is in order. You can't know the excitement and pride of some parents and families. I've had parents who set the ECOH date and invited family from out of state before the scout even went to his BOR. To some families, the Eagle is no less of importance than a daughters wedding. Wearing the patch before National approval can be a risk, but you don't want to throw any water on that families flame. As for early patches, traditionally the SM of our troop purchases and presents the Eagle patch to the scout as soon as National approves so that the scout can proudly show off his Eagle without waiting for the COH. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

There is a lot that could be said about the situation, but you pretty much said it all. My experience is when the adult starts to behave in the way you described, it is time for him/her to move on. I also don't see the granola bars being a big issue here. In the context of everything, the boys learned their lesson and the JASM guided them in how to change the behavoir and the snacks just help the scouts funtion the rest of the day. The adults need to know when a positive growth experience can quickly change to negitive one. I've observed about Wednesday at summer camps, everyone is peaking with fatigue. I eventually started having meetings with the adults in the morning explaining this unwanted tradition and to expect that not only will the boys get cranky, but so can the adults. I ask that they give an extra effort to set an example and hold from snapping or jumping on the scouts or each other. In fact, I ask that they give an extra effort to keep the enviroment positive. I also ask that no adult feel offened if another adult needs to interupt a potental cranky attack. I learned that the hard way during my first summer camp as an adult. Come Thursday, it seems like everything starts getting back to normal. Barry

>>I would be uncomfortable with most scouts using tools such as a power circular saw, chop saw, pneumatic nailers or a heavy drill

Under G2SS (Sports and Activities) ..Chainsaws and mechanical log splitters may be authorized for use only by trained individuals over the age of 18, using proper protective gear in accordance with local laws. This is the only restriction on power tools you will find in the G2SS. Our scouts use a lot of different power tools for their service and eagle projects. We used the activity badges in Webelos to teach proper safety and use of power tools as well. I remember teaching all the scouts the proper use of lawn mowers since that is about the age they start using them. Truth is Scouting should be a place were we learn proper use and respect of power tools and woods tools instead of fearing them. Strangely, the tool that causes the most reported enjuries for scouts is the hand saw, not the axe of knife. Barry

>>Since your unit seems to be short on gear, hows about having all the funds from the next fundraiser go to replacing what has been lost or misplaced?

Eamonn my good friend, after watching each other these last few years, I can honestly say that you and I are cut from the same cloth (tartan?). If it seems that we dont back each other up sometimes, it usually because we are approaching the discussion from two difference angles. However, I can assure you that we agree on just about every aspect of older scouts. I have nothing against older scout programs of any type. I was an Explorer Scout when I was young and I remember those days as some of my best scouting. As a SM, I looked at all older scout programs as more resources to building better men. You mention that I have a problem with Venturing Patrols, well YES I DO! But only because they are usually used to rescue failing older scouts instead of giving the Troop more program to help scouts grow. Not only do they hurt the older scout program when they are used incorrectly, they also retard the younger scout program (10 to 13) as well. For scouts to grow, they must have role models to watch and if the oldest scouts are only 13 years old, that is basically the max maturity age the troop is limited too. If Troops used Venturing as another activity to develop growth, it would work well, but most of the time, Venturing Patrols are an after thought because the older scouts are getting bored and high adventure looks attractive to adults as well as older scouts. But in my opinion, if adults cant succeed with older scouts in their regular program, what makes them think they can do it better with another program? One of the reasons I like Ships and Explorer type program is because they appeal to youth who have a passion for that particular activity. I belonged to a Scuba Explorer post and had a blast hanging around girls in bikinis, I mean hanging around water, yes that is what I meant. Usually specialty programs succeed because the adults are very good at guiding in those skills and activities. The leadership and management skills are secondary in motivation to be in program, but are usually hard learned because they are required skills to create, plan and execute the activity. The passion of the activity drives the program from meeting to meeting. The most satisfied scouts (girls and boys) at all ages are ones who are constantly challenged both mentally and physically. We do that pretty well at first in the troop with the First Class advancement program. But once the scouts have met all the challenges of becoming a first class scout, the program becomes less directive in its intuitive nature. By design the troop is designed for older scouts to start moving into leadership, but in the last 20 years or so, we have started pushing the younger guys to be the leaders when they arent mentally ready for the challenge and dont have the skills to learn from leadership experiences. Boys 13 and younger learn very little from leadership responsibilities because they dont have the mind set to see leadership as a tool to achieve visions. If the young guys are the leaders, what can be left for a 15 year old who has been there and done that over and over, High Adventure? Well most scouts will tell you that you can only go rapelling so many times and how can a program wrapped around high adventure be challenging every week for an hour and a half at troop meetings. It cant and the programs fail. Boys are men looking to shed their boy skin. Tehy want to be adults and a Boy Scout troop is better equipped to do that than any other youth program in the world, when it is guided right. I have said many times before that the name itself (Venturing Patrol) is what hurts the program. While I admit that keeping older scouts around is a most difficult task, there are some basic rules that must still be applied no matter what you call your older scout program. The rules are; Role modeling is the primary means of growth at ALL ages, Older scouts learn most from guiding and leading younger scouts, Younger scouts learn most by watching older scouts, And satisfaction comes from being challenged both mentally and physically in Fun activities. When the older scouts are separated from the younger scouts, every scout from the NSP to the graduating 17 year olds suffer from boredom and lack of growth. That is not to say we cant have Venturing Patrols. We found the best way for this to work is to keep the activity venturing Patrols temperary until the trek is over. And it may even be an outside patrol where the scouts still belong to their regular patrol. Ive seen it work several ways. What you dont want is a program that has the appearance in operation of scouts 14 and older being a separate program from the rest of the troop. That troop will always struggle or be adult led. >>I really think that you are looking very long term. Sadly I'm not sure if a Troop with only a couple of older Scouts, will hold on to these older Scouts. Maybe the answer is making long term goals with the younger Scouts?