Eagledad

Hi All I think this is good stuff and I enjoy reading other folks opinions in an area I have so much passion. If I may, the fallacies I see in the results are that they are basically opinions of a few, if not one adult. Not data or facts based from polls or questioning of groups and individuals. I mean to say that uniforms are basic reason boys rather go somewhere else like sports, or girls really makes no sense in a program where they can go rapelling, canoeing and even scuba. But I see these kinds of subjects come up all the time, we have our opinions and we want to do better in an organization that has so much to offer our children. The problem is we dont think like boys and we dont get in the shoes so many adults. Go get the facts. I know this because I spent a lot of time asking scouts why and why not. One example to explain what I mean is the huge loss of Webelos to scouts. As much as 50% in many councils. We heard the same old tired excuses that boys of the 10 and 11 year age chose sports over scouts. But when I went and interviewed Webelos, lots of them. I found that boys ready to quit scouts were just plain bored going to Webelos meetings, sitting and doing crafts. AT the same time the boys excited to join Troops enjoyed their meetings of learning skills like cooking and fire building, riding bikes and hiking in a nearby park. They camped, fished and went on site-seeing trips. After a while you start to see a picture. And on the front side, you would jump to the conclusion that it must be lousy adults or lousy training, but then I went and talked leaders of both the successful dens and the not so successful dens. I found that the majority of the less successful dens were mothers who started their Cub Leadership experience in Tigers and by the time the reached the Webelos age, they were just plain burned out. I also found out through a little research that a volunteer organization can expect the average enthusiastic volunteer to give about three years. Now go look at the Cub Scout plan and you find that Tigers to Bears is three years. On top of all that, 90 percent of Cub Leaders are women who dont know how to tie knots, build fires, cook on fires, sleep in a tent in the cold and heat and dont like to go to the bathroom behind a bush. The Cubs have created the perfect storm by combining burned out non outdoorsy mothers and Webelos at the 4th year of Cub Scouts. If you interview boys, or adults for that matter, you find that we look at the expectation of our future by our present experience. If we are having a boring time in scouts now, we see our future with the same expectation and start looking to jump ship. Use to Cub scouts was three years long. The BSA has since added first graders (Tigers) and Second year Webelos. Five years is a long time for that age group and it takes a lot of cleaver design and enthusiasm to keep adults excited to be creative enough to hold the interest of boys who rather dream of running in the woods then sit at a table doing crafts. It took me several years to learn all that and it is not my opinion based on my personal biases of what is fun and not fun. I just simply went out and start talking and interviewing scouts and adults to find out what is really going on. I have also done this at the older scout age and let me just say that know matter what uniform the BSA picks, the boys wont like it because that is how they are designed in the 13 to 15 year age group. Its not just their uniform; it is the clothing mom buys and the close the pick out for themselves at the mall also. Just go watch your son get dressed in the morning. How they dress during that age identifies who they think they are. You really think the BSA can make that work for the majority of boys? Boys who hang in scouting past puberty basically have no trouble with uniforms. Sit down and talk to them and listen. I mean really listen because they wont give you a direct answer, it is between the lines. What I learned is two basic things about older scouts that we adults dont do a very good job doing. They dont want to repeat the first two or three years of a basic first class type program, and they want to respected as and adult. Not repeating their first year doesnt mean they dont want to work with younger scouts, because I find they actually enjoy serving. What they mean is dont make them follow the younger scouts through their same old experience, which means they feel like baby sitters while doing all that first class type stuff AGAIN. Older scout should be serving the troop by leading and running it. Older scouts should be doing what most adults are doing. Give them the responsibility of success and failure of the team and they will rise to the occasion and relish the experience because there is no other place or program that has that opportunity. Think about it for a minute, where else can a boy who has the biology of a man go to do adult work. The troop is perfect really, but 90% of them wont give the older scouts those kinds of responsibility or respect. Second, treat them like adults. Nothing feels worse than feeling like an adult but being talked down to all the time. Talk eye to eye and ask questions instead of telling them your opinion. Treat them just as you treat the ASMs and the Committee adults and watch as they stand in ah. ALLOW them to make a difference as adults, not as boys and you will see older scouts excited to be older scouts in your unit. Problem is our culture now sees a boy stay a boy until high school graduation. 50 years ago a 15 year old was running a farm, today we tell them when to go to bed. When you are serious about finding the real problems, you got to ask what the boys want and what the adults are giving. You have to listen and read between the lines. Ignore you feelings like songs and uniforms because that is small stuff to boys. They may or may not like that depending on their age, but they are bigger than that. Boys are dreamers and dreamers arent driven by songs and uniforms. They are driven by the ability to see their dreams come true and the freedom to find themselves. More than anything else we humans are in search of what we are. Scouting is perfect for that when the adults get out of the way. Songs, uniforms, scarfs and all that other stuff is just little bits of spice that add flavor. It is the meal that keeps or drives off scouts. Look at the meal. Not to long ago I read someone on this forum say that thank goodness the Tigers can wear the blue shirts now, otherwise she, the mother, the adult, would not have joined cubs. The blue shirt? If we are loosing numbers, look at the whole picture. Have you notice that the Tiger program has changed shapes five times in the dozen or so years. Have you notice that Webelos are still loosing about 50% of the scouts before the Troop age? We arent asking the right questions? Have a great week all. Barry

I think our troop is above average in high adventure. When I look at all the adults involved in the past, I would say just about all of them had little or no experience starting out. When we wanted to do a trek, we went on an established trek or found an adult who trained us. Ask other Troops if your scouts can go along on a trek or arrange a trek with another Troop that may have the experience. The adults are out there, you just need to find them. I am no longer active in my troop, but I have been asked to train and lead a trek to the Northern Tier next summer. I'm going to ask the guy the trained me if he wants to lead a second crew as well. The adults who go along will be the leaders for the next crews. Barry

>>If the boys are used to troop cooking or adult cooking then this might be a hard thing to wean them from. But I've noticed that, while my son doesn't love cooking for the patrol and detests the shopping part, it has taught him organizational and leadership skills (as well as cooking skills) although I'm not sure he'd see it that way. Not to mention, he appreciates a "mom-cooked" meal so much more! So I'd say it is worth it.

Wow! Eamonn, that was really good. I wish we had a course to teach that kind of scouitng stuff, but I'm afraid that Wisdom 101 is a prerequisite and that takes time. Barry

"My take is that it probably isn't better or worse, just different." I agree with everything Lisabob says, and not because my name was Barrybob in my first course. The old WB course also taught leadership skills, but they were pretty much were all personal skills. The present course, while spends some time on personal skills, spends a lot of time on team developement skills and team leadership skills. To me the main difference is the new course teaches concepts that apply equally to new units struggling to get get momentum as well as the units already cruising from successful leadership. Barry

Anyone who is creative and likes to work with their hands will really enjoy this badge. In fact, I think it would be one of the most popular crafts badges at summer camp because you can make so many things from composite type materials. Scouts will learn that much of the exquipment from back packs, canoes, bows, tent parts to boots, climbing gear, most water sport gear, bikes, even tools like axe and saw handles. Its easy to shape and the chemical processes is fun to watch. It is an area where Engineering is really expanding. Barry

>>is it actually complete since a requirement wasn't done? I say no.

>>CalicoPenn, I understand the idea that the MB is "completed" when signed by the MBC, even if no actual work was done...but would you really sign an advancement report including such a MB if you actually knew that no work was actually done? If I did so, I would be making a false statement--that the record met the "standards and requirements" of the BSA.>I hear this grumble all over. IMO I think National needs to address this. Time to put the values back into scouts.

This is an interesting subject. I was just having a conversation with a good friend of mine who I think was the best CD our council has ever had. I mentioned a couple future course directors that I would have thought needed some time yet before they took on that responsibility and I asked him why they were selected at this time. Now don't get me wrong, when I think of the best CD, Eamonn comes to mind first and I compare all CDs to him. The folks I speak of are like Eamonn and will lead a good course, they just have a lot going on now in areas of scouting that I think should have the full attention toward the boys. My friend told me the restrictions National has for CDs dramatically limits the pool from which to select these folks. That is when he asked me to consider working toward jumping in that pool. That is when I changed subjects to something non-scouting. As to the question, I guess WB does take some personal time, but I didn't find it all that much more time consuming compared to the old WB course that took twice the amount of time from the staff, or taking time to attend a summer camp. Yes, you do make friends, but more than that to me, you make a difference for hundreds, if not thousands of youth out there needing leaders. One troop guide gets to make a difference to six or seven adult leaders who get to work with six or seven adults in their units who get to work with dozens of boys. Can you imagine how just one word during one lesson can have some kind of impact on so many boys? Very powerful. Barry

Thanks for all the kind replies. Your words Beav really ring true. Everytime I read your post, I think our Council has a great future. Eammon, I always enjoy your words because in many way I feel we came from the same mold, but I was the sent to the states. I can't think of who I would have said was my role model back in college. Looking back now, I can pick several. My dad is on that list, but I didn't understand that until I was a father. I have noticed my 23 year old starting to understand our family as well. In a time when many of his friends come from divorced families, he has been asking a lot about how we raised our kids. I guess I want to be a hero, but I have never looked at it that way. I will say that I have told my kids many times that I am their dad and not their best friend. I'm sure you all understand those moments. I have always looked at scouting as a fun way to prepare boys for the future. I know that I didn't do the job to get the praise. I know most of you are the same. But honestly, I did sit down and wonder just how we as scouters could make that much difference in a boys life. I think it must be like what Beav and Eammon are saying, it's not just one wonderous moment that does it, but many little moments that we don't even record in our own brain. Maybe it is the consistancy to live what we preach, and to admit our shame when we don't. I worked with so many boys and I run into them all the time. I used to say to adults all the time that we are making better men to be fathers, leaders of the community and workers in their companies. We are building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. It seems now that those boys I spoke of then have grown into men. That time is here and I am going to be confronted with my past performance. When I became a SM, I thought a lot about my SM and hoped I could be as good as him. I decided to look him up and found the phone number of his son who was one of my best friends back then. It turns out my SM had died of cancer just a few month pryer. Even more interesting, I had been working in a building one block from where he worked. Time is short, but I wanted to give him credit for my being a SM. I not sure he was a hero to me, but I know that I wanted to be a SM just like him. Yeah, I guess he was hero. I'm sitting here at the computer and raising my coffee mug to you. Here is to all you heros out there. As Jeffery said, thanks for giving all your time. Barry

HI All I had a wonderful weekend last week. I was invited to present a scout his Eagle during a troop Eagle COH. That is unusual for our troop because even though our scouts and their families plan the COH to their taste and needs, usually the father presents the Eagle with a short tribute following. This all started years ago when one father gave a very tearul tribute to his son and now all the moms since have forcefully incourage the same for all the scouts. I didn't ask questions, I only replied that I was honored. But I did wonder why this family was breaking tradition. To add to this, four scouts were getting their Eagle during the same ceremony and this scout was the only one whose father was not giving tribute. I've known this scout and his family for a long time. He is a good father who has supported his son as well as our troop and program. So I wondered what it was all about. I guess the mother and Scout knew I would be confused because wHen I walked into the church about 45 minutes before the ceremony, the scout and his mother approached me at the door. They both told me that I was asked to present the Eagle and the tribute because if it not for me, he would not be recieving his Eagle today. I told them that it was not me, but everyone in the troop. They however, would not accept that and made it clear, I got all the credit. I didn't know how to respond. I know some part of me was gleming with pride, but I can honestly say I was quieted and uncomfortable from their very very kind words. This scout to me an average boy, getting into a little trouble once in a while by pushing the limits, but also admitting his deeds and growing from his trials. He wasn't a difficult scout at all, in fact I liked they way he brought color into lives of those around him. He was a pretty good leader and he was respectful of all others. He is a pretty good kid, now a man in college. So what did I do that stands out from the rest of our hard working team of adults? I can't say honestly. I can only say that when I was a SM, I felt the obligation to be a team leader and that we were all rewarded for the performance of our scouts. The present SM of the troop is no slacker, I think he is better than I was, he is a great SM. While I am reaping the rewards of my one hour a week, I think I would rather this family gave credit to the whole team, and not just me, I don't know why. Isn't this the kind of payback we lust from all the hard work? Can we make that much difference? Such a flurry of emotions has rushed through me the last few days. I can only sum all this up by saying; Oh how I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>This year at summer camp we had a leader in our site that flew the "Jolly Roger" (skull & cross-bones).

This is a strange thread to me because my Patrol when I was a youth was the rebel patrol. That was in the early 70s , what about 15 years ago, and no one ever thought anything about it. Our patrol flag was a small Confederate battle flag. Sometimes its sad how times change. The BSA even offered a patrol patch with a rebel flag on it. I still have a shirt with that patch. Barry

Do a Google search on NEA gays. Barry

>>Make sure your meetings are fast paced, no more than 10-15 minutes on any one task.

Hi All Seems like everyone except the forum is getting blamed for this mistake. But the job descrition of the BOR is to verify the scout completed all the requirements, so that is where the cog failed in the machine. Clearly the scout needs some counseling if he didn't say anything and the adults need training to understand their role and policies of their responsibilities. I'm not sure why having a scout arrange the BOR for himself is like bypassing the SM, he still has to prove he completed all the the requirements, which includes a SM signature. Arranging the BOR doesn't mean it should be out of the scouts hands. In a world where everything is done for our youth, initiating action is a skill that needs to be learned and that still doesn't take away from the SM talking with the AC. Every unit makes mistakes, the better units change to prevent the next mistake. As for the scout, I'm not sure taking back the rank would be a positive move for anyone, but I certainly would counsel him with my disapointment and ask him for suggestions to what he can do about it. If he thinks he is man enough to take advantage of the situation, he certainly his man enough to answer the tough questions. Barry

After a few years of working with parents, we learned to put the new leaders in kind of a troop training for the first couple of months. It pretty much is what Venividi is suggesting. The SM or a very experience ASM usually has coffee ready for the new leaders at meetings and holds them together to discuss troop proceedures. I like the pie idea. It is better with the SM because it shows how well the Troop functions under the leadership of the SPL and PLC. But the SM has confrences to attend also so a good ASM is needed. We spend time watching a PLC meeting and discussing how it worked, who led and the role of the one of adult (SM) in the meeting. We show them how Patrol Corners works and discuss that as well. This is a good time to do all the basic trainings as well including safe swim, Merit Badge Counselors, and even understanding G2SS. We try and let the adults watch each part of the scout meeting for a couple of months and encourage discussion so that we can explain the value of how the adults fit in. We try to encrourage the new adults to basically watch for at least six months before they start diving in. A year in some jobs. But I find that summer camp is pretty much where the new adults really start to understand "boy run" and the light bulb turns on. Many troops put new leaders in charge of NSPs, but we put our most experienced and best leaders in charge of that group. Many troops like to get the adults active right off the bat and I agree if they aren't close to the boys. I found that boy run just takes a little while to understand. Once they get it, then they get if well. It is important that the SM talk to the adults a lot of the hows and whys so that all the adults understand and buy in to the goals of the program. It is also important the New Parents who aren't involved in leadership still understand the program as well. Most problems occure from the mysteries of the program like why don't parents get more calls or why isn't their son earning rank faster? I think at least one parents meeting per month for the first three months works really well. The "getting ready for summer camp" meeting being the last. After that everybody is pretty much on board. Good question. Barry Barry

I don't think that is a train coming, it is opportunity with a flash light coming to help. Now is the time to teach why you do scouting the way you do. The SM carries the torch of philosophy for the troop. Most folks do not want that responsibility, so they take a part on the committee. But most people get excited to be part of a program when the philosophy make sense. I like to teach that a successful SM spends at least 50% of his/her time talking with the adults because troops run so much better when everyone feels a part of the SMs program. Yep, most SMs would love to see that light coming. Your scouts are going to have a great year. Barry

This is one of those kinds of situations where I think all the leaders need to sit down and understand their role to the pack. I'm not trying to push Wood Badge, but this is where the course teaches the Four Phases of Team Building. Step one (Forming) is getting organized and understanding 1. the goal of the pack, and 2. what each person's role is toward that goal. Step 2 (Storming) which is usally where the team hammers out each others boundaries to their roles or jobs. The more your team understands the team goal and their specific part to the team at the begining of the team building, the less storming or frustration each member of the team will have to endure as the pack works with your sons. So I suggest getting everyone, not just the SM, but everyone to a meeting to read and learn what the BSA says is the pack's goal, and what each persons responsibilities are toward reaching that goal. Let the discussion start after that. Hope that helps. Barry

>>Scoutmaster and Committee Chair need to get their act together and then talk with this parent together.

>>Its often easier to admit to misbehaving than admit to being dumb.

>>Mission statements and visions are nothing more than fluff

>>When it finally comes to a head the adults, being human, are just not willing to listen to an explanation from the boy who just stepped on their last nerve and is having a run in with a boy that has not caused any trouble at all. It is not fair but it is understandable.

I always wondered why baseball managers got away with so much before getting kicked out. Its because some bad behavior is OK, just now all bad behavior. Thanks for the explanation. I have one too. Our local soccer association had trouble with the refs not calling bad language. Most of the problem occurred from the older teenage refs who also played the game. It was found they allowed the language because they like to use it themselves. The refs said it was hard to punish players on some words while not on other words, so they pretty much left that rule alone. The parents had a different idea and now no bad language is allowed. To the parents it was all bad, so they forced the association to act. I think what you are really saying OGE is it is up to the adults of the unit to use what ever ability and creativity within their means to restrict a boys behavior. I will accept that. I remember a scouter here once said that if scouts were talking after lights out, they were threatened with being sent home. I remember thinking that talking after lights out was one of my favorite ways of teaching the SPL how to control his scouts. I guess we all have different a straw that breaks the camels back. Barry

I think we adults don't carry the baggage of adolescences like competing for position within the group and working past the urge to sit when voluntarily helping a patrol mate cook or do KP makes the patrol method more fun for the group. It is easy for adults because we want a functioning team and we are willing to make that happen. Youth struggle with the idea of their friend telling them what to do. I think what is really important is taking the feeling of the experience and working to find that within your scouts. Dont duplicate your experience, but instead work the patrol the boys method until they achieve the same excitement and satisfaction with their patrols. I had a discussion with a professional scouter who told me one big reason they change WB was because they saw too many problems with adults going back and trying to duplicate their experience of WB on to the boys. Instead of using the independence designed into the patrol method, the adults unintentionally were restricting patrol method by forcing the boys to function like thier WB experience. Have a great day. Barry