Eagledad

>>I hope that homophobes will eventually realize that their fears are in vain and their hate is unscoutlike.

I believe that we lead our lives by dodging our fears. In fact I usually tell leaders that adult fears are the limitations of boy run troops. Usually the more boy run, the more the adults have trained their scouts past their adult fears. Naturally Boys usually learn the limits of their fears by their natural drive of pushing themselves in physical actvities. Whether it is using tools, going as high as we can and then coming down as fast as we can, jumping in to test the waters and pushing ourselves to go as fast as we can, we boys are driven to it by instinct. Women on the other hand have a different drive to jugde before they leap. Their caution is derived from the instinct protect their young until they reach a maturity to compete in the world. The balance between the two is letting the boys go far enough to learn the skills to succeed, but not so far as to get permantly injured. Thus the constant struggle between mom and dad, or male leader and female leaders. We are talking about horseplay and such things here, but I see this in our discussion of woods tools and power tools. Scouting is a wonderful place to learn the limitations and safety of power tools, yet it gets a lot of cold water thrown on the idea because of the fear. One other observation that hasn't been thrown out, I know parents worry about the older scouts, but I found in manny cases that older scouts or Troop Guides get hurt a lot. First they would be the cool Older Scout by horse playing with one or two new scouts, but it wouldn't take long before all the new scouts are jumping in the act and the one older scout is pleading for his life. Barry

Yes, I understand. I used to be the Council JLT Chairman and most of the people I communicated with from the National all the way down to troop level use JLT generically for youth leadership training or developement. We used "Troop or unit JLT" as the term for unit level training. National issueing their TLT course seems to have muddled the water a lot. I know of a lot of troops that called their unit level training TLT long before National called did. And the TLT they used is not the TLT or JLT you are refering to. In fact, many of the unit's courses I've seen came from scaled down Brownsea or JLTC courses. Thanks for the explination. Have a great day. Barry

>>But those of you who have taught TLT (and I have) will spot the problem here: 95% of the course isn't position-specific.

>>I see no problem with a Troop having the expectation that the boys will go to training because it is the right thing to do. But if the leaders do not sign off on the requirement and deny them their Star rank (or other rank) because they did not attend a non-mandatory training session then that is wrong.

>>You need to talk to the CC or Advancement Chair about your concerns, so that they can have a conversation with the SM if they think it's appropriate. Or you can have an informal conversation with the SM if you have a good friendly working relationship.

>>I commend the SM for wanting to have the boys all trained but I can't imagine making a boy sit through Troop Guide training every six months for as longs as the boy is a Troop Guide.

>>However the Pack Committee sees nothing wrong with the CMs actions.

>>You're either religious and a Republican or you are not religious? Where did that come from?

OK, do I understand right, you are considering taking the course that you have already staffed because the course may not make? This is a new one on me, but I can't help feel the time would be better spent helping a struggling unit or district committee. I'm really courious to read Eamonn's (WB guru) opinion on this. How would the CD pick a patrol for a person with your experience? Barry

>>Hi! I'm a religious person on the left. And there are a lot more of us. We just don't tend to wear it on our sleeve.

>>The few times that gay marriage "won" was when it was legislated from the bench -- one wonders how exactly *that* is supposed to square with hearing from both sides?

At one time we took a count and found that four of our families had three brothers in our troop, and eight other families with at least two. I could never bring myself to ask these families to buy more than one subscription of Boy's Life. Barry

Ah the memories. Anyone who is a scouter in Oklahoma understands that the University of Oklahoma/TEXAS game is a holiday weekend of which nothing is planned unless the activity is within five feet of a 25 inch or greater TV. I've been told is required by state law. The PLC of my troop as a boy made the error scheduling our campout on that weekend. It quickly became obvious that there wasn't going to be any adults unless something was done, and a generator and TV showed up on that beautiful Oklahoma fall day as well as the usual dozen or so adults. Barry

>>Then it was Wolf, Bear, Lion, Webelos/Arrow of Light. The Lion/Webelos book was combined. WeBeLoS stood for "Wolf, Bear, Lion, Scout".

>> Eagledad, Thanks for the inquiry about who I am, but that is irrelvant to the message.

GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY! What a great marketing theme for the BSA. Maybe the BSA could start a movement. Imagine a series of 2 second video clips of scouts hiking, climbing, rapelling, biking, scuba diving, sailing, cooking, backpacking, canoeing, building a fire, singing by the fire, on and on and on. Imagine a series of pictures of the same thing in the local paper. Just Do It! Nike Go Outside and Play! Scouting Barry

Hi Brianbuf. What is your scouting experience? About how old are you, give or take? What does Brianbuf stand for? Thanks Barry

>>But you CAN pull all the parents together to explain your vision, and how it will benefit their sons. And acceptance that everyone sees things differently, and conversations are the only way for the group to learn from past and agree on steps to improve in the future.

Me, Me, I've been in almost the exact same place except we went from 16 to 35 the first year and 25 more the next. You are in a very challenging place and that you are asking about it shows how you are trying to get ahead of the game. I think beavah gave great advice you need to use, but it doesn't apply to the first six months of your next new group. Lets face it, your program is going to change. It has to just to keep up with the numbers. So start pow wowing with the adults and prepare for it. We were not prepared and lost 50% of our new scouts in four months. We just weren't ready for all the news scouts running around asking lots of questions and wanting to do scouting stuff now. We weren't ready to get in our minds to help the PLC and adult control and communicate with that many boys. We are very boy run, so it just overwhelmed us. It looks like you are the way we were and your troop is young, so youth leadership is still getting their feet under them as well. Make sure your meeting place can handle at least 80 scouts or so. You may try to limit your program, but I would suggest yo u instead prepare for continued success. Make sure you can handle at least six to eight patrol corners. Get a system going for drivers for campouts. Don't over react and go out and get the biggest trailer in town, instead get rid of the patrol boxes and start using plastic tubs. We actually use milk crates. But get your gear to a size for a small trialer with the idea that the cars can carry gear as well. Big trailers require big cars that you may or may not have, but you will need the cars to haul boys, might as well carry some gear. If you must have trailers, we learned from another large troop to by several small ones so you can add or takeaway as the size requires. Get trailers that minivans can pull, no larger. Get a good adult in charge of camping logistics. First thing that person does is recruit at least one adult for each month to help arrange the campout and collect the money at each meeting. You must recruit this help because it will be a lot for one person. I believe our Camping Chairman, and I was it for a while, is the hardest working adult in the troop. Get three months ahead on planning because some places can't accept large groups and the sooner you know, the sooner the PLC can change plans. You will have a lot of cars going to camp now and we learned a lot. Do not caravan because most wrecks happen in caravans. Give every driver a map and an expected time of arrival to camp. We found if one car follows another and they get seperated, it may take hours to sort it out. Just a map and send them on their way. All our cars showed up with in 30 minutes even on our 500 mile drives to New Mexico. You can arrange to meet for gas or food along the way if you want, but remember stores don't like 40 socuts rushing in all at once. Our PLC was in charge of uniform polocy except for travel. We found that clerks just got very nervious with a lot of boys, so ask the PLC to insist on uniform so the clear knew who's adults they belong to. Give your drivers medical imformation on each scout in the car in case, which should include all the appropiate pnone numbers. Get your adults of the mind that you are going to have a million kids running around. That means everything will take longer until they learn the system. Don't get loud, don't get angry, just help the patrol leaders get their guys together. Have a training meeting with the adults and PLC and discuss how each other is going to work the group. The SPL should not be yelling and he needs to get in the habit of asking patrol leaders to quiet their patrol. Not yell at each individual scout. Make the PLC work together. If that isn't working, the ASPL needs to work his way around to that patrol and help the patrol leader so the SPL is not interrupted. If that still doesn't work and sometimes new scouts are just excited, the SM needs wonder over and ask the ASPL if he needs help. If that doesn't work, one of you guys quietly ask the scout or scouts to leave the room so you can talk to them. These are good leadership practices anyways, but until your troop gets its feet back, it has to be kind of expected and pushed. Practice this with the PLC before the new scouts show up. Also practice how an ASM can sort of help the young PL get his guys together when it is time for the meeting. It takes about three months for everyone to figure it out. Now, the hardest part of all this is the temptation for the adults to take over. You don't need to, just fill in where maturity and experience haven't developed yet. But never take the floor away from the SPL without first asking. The quicker everyone learns the SPL IS the leader, the faster respect for the youth leadership will develop. One way of getting in the habit of this teach the adults to never put their sign up first, but instead wait for a youth leader. If an adult has the floor but really needs the boys to quiet down, the adult ask the SPL or highest ranking youth leader in a very quiet tone of whisper to get control or quiet the scouts. Don't give up the boy run part of the program because you feel overwhelmed by the numbers. Our meetings aveaged 50 scouts and we never yelled. The scout just learned to ask for help. Get ready for a lot of money. I mean if you don't have a good treasuring system and treasure, get one now because your troop will be handleing several thousand dollars just at next summer camp. My wife (a CPA) was our treasure and after ten years, she figure she processed over 50000 checks. That is a lot of checks. Get software and someone to use it and get control before you start. Your treasure will get a lot of calls about money and it can be imbarrasing if they don't know what they are doing. 40 scouts exchange a lot of money just for a simple campout. Finally, have a honest meeting with all the adults. Parents included and explain what is about the happen. It is a good thing, but you want to be ready. Let them know that this will be challenging and take some time for learning. There will be some frustrating times, but allow some time for adjusting. I wish we had done this with our first group and I don't think we would have lost so many. We did do it with our second large new group and we didn't loose hardly any. If you think you have a good program, then tell them that. But it must be understood that adding that many new scouts takes some adjustment. Once they understand that, they will stand back a little during those difficult moments. Can it all be done, you bet. Our Troop Grew from 15 to 50 in four years after loosing at least 30 scouts in those years. Our program kept doing well and we averaged 20 new scouts a year for eight years. When I left as SM after about 10 years, we had 94 scouts on the roster. In a distict of 20 troops, we were the third largest troop in our third year. We kept that place even after I quit with 94 scouts on the roster. In all those years, we never went recruiting new scouts. Our programs reputation just kept bringing them in. And I want to point out that we were considered the most boy run troop in the council of 350 troops. So it can be done. W never set limits, but we didn't recuit as I said. We also raised the rates to join. But honestly, I never heard anyone say that was and issue. If they wanted a good boy run program, they joined. IF a family couldn't afford us but wanted our troop, we help them out. We never turned anyone away, but is sure was tempting. I wrote somethng about this a few years ago on another forum and I notice someone else has post that thread and a couple others on their Web Site. Got to http://www.scoutingideas.com/doku.php and look for "Troop Size and Program--Facts & Myths" It might have something in there that will help, I don't know. OK! I wrote this while my wife was yelling supper, so I hope it reads well enough to understand. I have been where you are at and I wish we had forums back then. Good luck I love this scouting stuff. Your oldest scouts

>>But it was not until one chilly autumn night with the smell of wood smoke in the air that I heard the Eagle Patrol singing in the distance and something "clicked." For the first time in my life I "understood" the Patrol Method. This was not a theoretical understanding.

I love that song. My favorite part is the silky tights part. So, what critter did you get? Barry

>> Other than that, they are great DL's. Regardless, what we have is working.

>>then a troop of 100 lukewarm, middle of the road, could care less, speed through the dorkiness, quit as soon as my parents let me, scouts.

Our Troop is in the habit of giving staves of onor to scouts and scouters for such ocassions. Barry