Eagledad

Also you can design and have an embroidery shop make patches. During my Wood Badge course, our BOB White patrol made patches that read "BOB TRAINED". Oh wait, is this something different? Nevermind. Barry

Most moms go through this one way another. It's normal, at least with most of the moms in our troop. I think there are two reasons for the anxiety and frustration; First I think most moms don't understand the process of the program. That's expected because you weren't a boy scout as a youth, so you don't know how the program works. Oh I know some have talk about how advancement, leadership, patrols and all that other stuff leads to character and Eagles, but it still can be a mystery for those who have not experience standing around the campfire on a cold night talking about the lastest movies and coolest cars. But scouting isn't series of seasons leading to win-loss record like soccer or baseball. Scouting is adventure that is designed for a boy to challenge his dreams and goals all the while learning the behaviors of a man, and not even realizing it. The other problem is understanding the difference in each of your goals. Adults by nature are basically goal driven because survival depends on the success of where we are placed against the other guy. You likely see advancement as at measure of how your son is doing against the other guys. Or at least in reference to the group. Your son on the other has completely different goals. Stature is only important in that he be accepted by the group. Sticking out is risky because it could mean being out of the group. Boys around this age don't really want to stick out, but instead have fun sticking in the group. Your son is lion cub looking to play with the other lion cubs. The last thing the lion cub wants is a serious thought about survival. Not that he isn't growing. He is camping in the wilderness, setting up his tent in the dark and taking care of himself. How many of his friends can brag about all that? He is certainly growing. You want a measurement of stature to see where he stands. He is not ready for stature because at this point in his life, it means little. But that is coming. The time is coming quickly when his vision of life will change and stature will be very important. What you want at that point is for him to have all the tools that will help him succeed. That is where he is right now, learning those tools of being self sufficient, self productive and responsibile toward himself and others. He's doing OK. Growing up into a man takes a little while. But I'm finding that it goes, went a little faster than I would have liked. My sons are men now. I'm not one who believes that scouting is about only your son and you are on the sidelines quietly hoping he does OK. I look at scouting as one of many pieces mom puts in her puzzle of building a man fo her son. You should have an active interest in what your son gets out of the program. You should care and you should have expectations. As a scoutmaster, I tried to get to know the families of my scouts. Rarely did a family not know how things were going with his son in my troop. Good or bad, the parents were on top of it because I loved bragging about their son, and I begged for help when he struggled. I see the Scoutmaster as part of moms team for developing her son into a great man. So you are not wrong in your anxiety of your son's scouting experience. You just don't understand what is expected of you and of him. So ask the questions, learn the program and have have patience. Advancement? Well that is an adult thing. Sitting around the campfire talking about the fish caught that day. That is his thing. That is scouting. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The jackhammer thing put me at odds with Bob White a long time ago, I thought they were too risky

>>"I just wonder why GSUSA is let off the hook by those who complain about BSA? " Gee. Its very simple. (I asked this question on a prior version of this sort of forum). You see, girls are a 'protected class'. Boys aren't.

In just about all scouting activities, whether it be leading a flag ceremony or an Eagle Project building a gazebo for a nursing home, scouts are basically only limited by the fears of the adults. I try and explain during my training that the real definition of Boy Run from my perspective is the willingness of the adults to let the scouts run their program. All adults have fears and limitations they see of themselves. I do not enjoy rappelling. I tried it and I don't like the fear I feel from it. Should I let that fear limt the boys program? The best boy run troops are the ones where the adults push the program beyound the limits of their fears. How do you do that, you train the adults and scouts to lead and control that activity safely and wisely to remove the fear. Now most of you can see the fear of sending a Patrol of new scouts backpacking in a state park without training, but I know of a new troop that was mostly led by women who struggled to let the scouts even lead a Flag Ceremony without adult help. They could stand the thought of scouts not doing it right. But at the same time, they never trained the scouts because they weren't sure how. What we think is safe for scouts is a matter of perspective from one person to the next. The only way to deal with the fears that limit the scouts program is to train everyone so that we are nolonger afraid. The Jackhammer I think would be a wonderful tool to teach scouts because it is so easy to use safely provided the proper training a safety equipment. It's not that I want boys to learn the jackhammer, it's that I want them to learn the process of how to use tools safely. All tools. Most accidents come from just grabbing the tool and using it without any proper training. Do you know that most scouting injuries come from the saw (adult and scout). And yet the saw is usually the least talked about as far as safety because it's use appears so simple. We need to set an example of respect, not fear. Never say "No", say "Show me how we can do it safely". Barry

>>Mentorship, mentorship, and more mentorship. Adult Association is as much a Method of Scouting as is Advancement.

Our Eagles have been in all PORs of the troop after they got their Eagle. For what ever reason, most of my SPLs jumped into the Troop guide position after their SPL time. Nothing was ever suggested from the adult side, they just did that. And they were really really good. Personally I see pushing the Eagle into JASM a limitation on their growth because many scouts want to go back an old position again to do it better. At the same time, while I understand why the BSA put an age limitation of 16 on JASM, I also see it as a limitation as well. Just like there are some special scouts who deservedly become Eagle at age 14, having to wait for a position that is really their next challenge and opportunity of growth. I did not use the 16 year old restriction. >>My point of view differs from the SM in that I'd like to see these guys who have served multiple times as a PL or as SPL and/or earned their Eagle to recycle back into the troop as Instructors, Troop Guides or ASPL's. Many of the boys see it as a pride and pecking order issue and think it would be going backwards for a former PL or SPL to take a "lower" position.

>>"Please provide the Troop/BSA guidelines on dealing with allegations made by one scout upon another scout and describe how your handling of this matter was consistent with such. Additionally, please explain the review process you undertook and your rationale for recommending to [the SPL] that [his son] be offered a probationary troop position."

About 50% of our Eagles do it. Some do it before the ceremony so the folks have something to watch while waiting for the ceremony to start. Barry

>>As a seventeen year old, presumably lookin' to apply for the organization's highest award within the year, it's worth askin' the boy to think about whether he can do that honestly.

Wow, there is so much that can be said about Scout Mastering. But humble because it is truly a learning experience and if you are to be really good at the job, you must learn from each experience. No matter what, be consistent. If the scout cant trust how you will react when they struggle and fail, they won't seek your wisdom. They won't try to risk failure. For the Scoutmaster, failure is good. Failure is opportunity. We talk so much about letting scouts fail, yet so many adults seem to get angry when they see it. It is easy to lead a troop of perfect leaders, but that isnt scouting. When a boy gets angry, when a boy yells, when a boy gets physical, or when he gets rebellious, that for you is an opportunity. For you see behavior is our job. Remember it is next to impossible to change character. For character to really change; it has to be done from within. But we do have a lot of power to influence conduct. And to learn a thing, we must practice a thing. Give your scouts the opportunities to practice conduct guided by the Scout Law and Oath hoping that they practice it enough to develop habits. From those habits, they have the ability to influence their character. It is hard to express the power you hold because looking at it from your side now, you only have apprehension and vision. You have to rely on passion to feed your one hour a week. But looking at it from my side, I have experience and memories to feed my obsession of scouting. I can say with all my heart that it all really works because I have been there. Trust in the program and trust in yourself because there will be nights you wont be able to sleep from the frustration. You will be rewarded however. They will come when you least expect them and from those you could never imagine. It will be those times that you wont be able to sleep because the grin on your face and from the continuous prayers of thanks. You are now the leader of troop philosophy. What you say goes. For whatever reason, most folks will not question your wisdom, even when it is really just a theory that has not yet been hardened from the fire of experience. You are the magnet where everyone wants to stand. They could ask anyone answers to their questions, but they will go to the Scoutmaster. Why, because until you loose their trust, you are ten feet tall and you know it all. What you say goes and what goes is the Scoutmasters will. In reality you dont deserve it because such power should be earned. But it yours, so be gentle, be humble, be compassionate, be honest, and be brave. A boy is no less and no more than a small chick in your hands. Too much pressure will kill him his will, too little will allow him to fly off to something more appealing. Always let the Scout Law be your guide. Not in words, but in all your actions. Boys dont listen, they only watch. And they watch all the time. You will learn that you are the scoutmaster of families, not boys. The hired you to help in their quest of making thier son into a man. But when you guide the boy, the family will watch, follow and thirst for more. You will find yourself Scoutmastering adults and pull from it. Boys want adventure, adults want everything else. Mothers are the hardest because their nature is to protect their young. Part of that protection is making a trail for their son. YOur job is difficult because a troop is where the boy makes his own trail. Choose your words carefully and mom will let her son take the lead. But challenge her job of protecting her son, you will meet the impassible force. You work for the family, stand your ground and protect your philosphy, but never assume yourself more important than your are. You are the Scoutmaster, but you are only the scoutmaster. There are only few places left where a boy can truly feel good about himself because adults have so much to say about every action a boy makes today. But there is still the troop. A troop needs to be a place of refuge, a place of opportunity and a place where dreams can come true. A troop has to be a place mystery and a place where a boy has the confidence to venture in the dark and safe enough to keep trying. I felt best as a scoutmaster when I knew the boys went home saying I like myself when Im with the Troop. And truly, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My take? You're dealing with a lad with low self-esteem, who had another notch at his sense of worth hacked out with the election. I would speak with the boy and let him know you heard what happened, you understand how frustrating it was, that you see this as an expression of that frustration, but that it was an inappropriate way to express that frustration.

>>This may just be semantics, but is there any reason the Troop can't have multiple Quartermasters?

>>I didnt think that this little discussion had any impact but I saw on some of the course evaluations that they thought the presentation of the different views of the Patrol Methods was one of the things that they got the most out of the training.

>>I had just about finished imparting my wise words when a storm came through and knocked out the power. So every thing was lost.

This is a really good question with some really good replies. Cubscoutjo had an excellent reply that I hope to try someday. As a Cub Scout leader, if I held the sign up more then ten seconds, I took that as an indication that I wasnt doing a very good job with the program at that moment, so I changed it. But I can also see using SubscoutJos suggestions for that especially talkative cub. On the troop side, we taught the scouts that the sign was to be respected and not abused. Only use it long enough to get the groups attention, no longer. The sign was important in our troop because we dont yell. I didnt like yelling and didnt like my leaders to yell, adults or youth. I told them that yelling is an indication of weak leadership and that was a good time to learn a new leadership technique. We train the PLC that when anybody puts up the sign, the PLC as a team needs to respond immediately to set the example for the whole troop. If a few scouts clearly are busy in an activity and dont see the sign, then someone just needs to politely get their attention. In our Troop, the adults are encouraged to never put up their sign until a scout has put his up first. If an adult personally needs the groups attention, they ask a scout to get it for them. That way the adults learn to bow to scouts as the leaders of the group. There are some really good replies here that I wished I had read 15 years ago. Also I found once the group gets use to style of leadership, they follow it until someone forces a change. So consistency goes a long ways. Great question and answers, thanks. Barry

>>As to date, we have shown only one side of ourselves. It is time to at least try a different approach. What we are doing is simply not working.

Boy, weve done many of these kinds of trips and learned a lot. The more you break up the group, the faster and less stressful it can go. Eight to ten hours is about all most drivers and passengers can stand. After that everyone starts to get a little edgy. We found that it is best to have two adults per car. Not so much to give drivers a break from driving, but so one adult can attend to the scouts and prevent the driver from getting distracted. Also, we once had a driver get very sick in a matter of minutes. Our other adult was able to help the sick driver get comfortable in the back seat then continue to the next town an hour away where we took him to a hospital. And, it is nice to have an adult to talk to during a 10 hour drive. Never drive in caravan. The BSA sets that as a policy because most accidents in units occur with cars in the caravan. But we found it is just less stressful on all the drivers if they drive at a speed more comfortable for them and not focus on the car in front of them in heavy traffic. Typically all the cars arrive at the destination within 20 minutes even on long 500 mile trips. And it is much easier to manage one car load of scouts at stops than a whole unit of them. Add ten minutes for each additional car that stop together for a break or lunch. Our Troop usually gives each car a packet that includes: a. Detail directions along with a map to the destination. b. A list of phone numbers that includes all the drivers and a few numbers of spouses at home just in case of an emergency and cell phones are unreliable. c. Suggested stops for gas, breaks every 2 hours, and lunch so that the each group can meet if they choose, but not required. d. A copy of each Scouts medical in that car incase of an emergency. We are use to side trips on long travel because it can enhance trips and make long ones seem shorter. Your agenda and time will dictate where you can go, but we have stopped at amusement parks, Mall of America in Minneapolis, rafting and park tours. I like amusement parks because they are almost no work for the adults, but they can be very expensive. Watch your budget. Many of the amusement parks will give a big discount if the scouts do a quick service project, usually pick up trash for 30 minutes. Look for accommodations like churches or military installations to sleep overnight. Sometimes troops in local areas can help find places to stay as well. We rarely camp on long trips because of the amount of time it takes to set and break camp. Just eating meals during travel can take a long time for large groups. There are some places (hostels) that actually cater to large traveling groups for a small fee of a buck or two per scout. They are very nice for large groups and fast for getting in and getting out. I know this may sound a little silly, but travel can be a very good Patrol Method experience for the troop. In our troop, nobody moves until the SPL has verified the vehicles are loaded correctly. One scout is leader in each vehicle and the adults should only need to talk to him for controlling the group. Doesnt always work, but in general the scouts understand the system. I agree on the herding cats, large groups can be very difficult (stressful), so make those boy leaders do their job. One final thing, we learned the hard way that scouts tend to loose respect for the vehicles they ride in as they get tired during long trips. Whether we rent vans and/or use personal vehicles, our last stop before we get home is a car wash where the scouts use their own money to clean out the vehicles to the satisfaction of the drivers. It made a big difference once we started that tradition because nobody likes to stop when they are just minutes from home. Barry

>>All of these "changes" came out of nowhere, and there has been no discussion or communication on how to get these things together. It is frustrating.

>>One of the reasons for boys droppin' out of troops is not bein' physically and emotionally ready for Boy Scouting as 11-year-olds. Why would yeh choose to take that risk with a 10 year old?

>>With planning done so far in advance, we will have a tough time getting out with a troop on a "real" Boy Scout campout.

These are the struggles that build strength in a troop. While I know it is very frustrating and difficult, what you learn here will help in the future.. Hi All I want say that this is a very typical problem in all units and your frustration is common among adults in new troops. I think your post is very important and has a lot of parts to it. First, I have to agree that your SPL seems to be the most on top of this right now. To be honest, asking him for ideas would go along way toward praising his efforts, boosting his confidence as a leader and showing that even adults dont know everything. He did exactly what we teach our youth leaders. I will get back to this in a minute. Remember, our job is influencing behavior. Scotteng says it best, if it werent for disruptive scouts, we would have no scouts at all. All of us in way or another are disruptive to others. What about the scout who doesnt like his meal? You are struggling because this is new for you. But this will not be your first, and in fact this experience should help the adults learn skills for the future. Its not just the scouts who grow from scouting. Part of how we work with scouts is learning how to motivate their behavior. Dr. Kilpatrick says it best like this: To learn how to form judgments, we must practice forming judgments under conditions that tell success from failure and give satisfaction to success and annoyance to failure. Another word for all this is the scouts need to be held accountable for their actions. All actions, whether good or bad. We praise good actions and we guide during bad one. The reason all the replies praise your SPL is because he not only held the scout accountable, but he dealt with the bad behavior without yelling or loosing control and the scout in question knew he was wrong. He was annoyed by the SPLs actions. You should need to reinforce the scouts failure by supporting the SPL. I get the feeling youre are trying to be sympathetic and understanding with the scout hoping he will change from your show of compassion. But human behavior is opposite, we tend to try and get away with what we can. The more we get away with it, the farther we push it. Human nature is we only listen when we respect and trust the person that is trying to guide us. Why do you think mentors are so powerful. Usually a mentor is someone we trust to fair and honest. The way you draw respect with scouts is to be fair. That means praise when he does well, and hold him accountable when he fails. Never get angry, only concerned. Now there are lots of ways to do this, but the point is the scout should feel annoyance when he fails. A few ideas that have worked well are asking the scout leave the meeting and sit outside the activity until someone can talk to him later. Ask the scout to go find the SM and confess what happened. Ask the scout to call their parents to come pick them up. Ask the scout to come and talk to the SM. Have an adult follow the scout around, which works really well because the scout has lost his freedom. I have never seen a scout who could stand that more than two meetings before they change their behavior. Those are just a few ideas that have worked for us, but remember, whatever you do to work the problem, the scouts are likely going to use as well because they are watching. There are many more ways of dealing with your misbehaved scouts and Im sure other folks will give suggestions, but it is important that you need to get in the habit of asking the scout questions that leads him to acknowledge he failed, usually with the scout law. Then guide him, not you, but him to come up with ideas to change his habits because to learn something, you must practice that something. As you practice this style of leadership, you will get better and you will also be amazed at the success. On the other side of this, Ive notice that your SPL used a really good leadership skill to control the crowd. Im not sure you recognized that, but asking a scout to leave the room when asking a scout to simply stop doesnt work is one of the techniques we teach our scouts in the Troop and at Council JLTC. The reasoning is to remove the annoyance of the meeting so that you can continue your business. Deal with the problem later or ask someone to deal with it out of the room if it must be dealt with immediately. That could be the SM, ASPL, ASPL or older scout. As you said, your meeting ran on time once your misbehaved scout left. One of your responsibilities as a SM is teaching leadership skills. One of the problems Ive seen in scouting today is that many adults dont seem to have leadership skills, so they dont know how to teach them. But there are couple simple rules that work for almost everyone that I gave to our adults and scouts which usually help start their actions in the right direction. When dealing with behavior: Never Yell, never. And never react immediately with emotion (anger, fear), ask for a time out to collect your thoughts until you can talk logically without anger. If you can follow those two rules, you will likely be doing OK no matter the situation. As you get better at this, so will your scouts because when it comes to leadership behavior, it really is monkey see monkey do. You want proof, watch the other troops next year at summer camp and observe how the SPL acts compared to the SM. You will be amazed. I want to respond to your comment that these two scouts need scouting the most. If that were the case, you would only have the most difficult boys in your troop. Our job is to guide scouts to make ethical decisions based from the Scout Law and Oath. I think every boy needs that guidance. The only difference between your son and those other two scouts is they need a different type of guidance to become citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Who knows, those two scouts may turn out to be natural leaders and your son inept. It only means that your son needs a different style of guidance toward developing leadership than the other two scouts. Be careful not to loose sight of the big picture. Sorry, I know this was long. I dont have the gift of writing and you guys suffer from it. I hope it helps. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Consider also just doin' a bunch of family campin', and skippin' Cub Scouts altogether. Have your son join Boy Scouts when he's ready, in an active troop.

Hi Randy I wrote this on another forum a few years ago for someone who was jumping strait from CM to SM. But I think much of it applies to everyone in your position. One other thing, relax and watch for at least six months. Relax and watch. This is a little long __________ Moving from Cubmaster to Scoutmaster Our troop has several past and present CMs as adult leaders. I also went from straight from CM to SM, but I was an ASM for three years while a CM, which made a big difference. I can honestly say a CM is a terrible Troop leader until trained. A CM usually leads boys in songs, skits, and cheers. That's the SPL's responsibility in the troop with the SM quietly looking on. A CM sets rules and enforces behavior. In a troop, the scouts do that with the SM teaching and guiding the scouts on their performance--always behind the scenes, not during the action. A CM needs to be outgoing and have the skills of an entertainer. A SM needs to appear introverted and lazy. The CM is responsible for some managing of the pack adult leaders, the SM tries to keep the adults busy, yet out the scouts' way. A CM gives badges to honor scouts. A SM gives responsibility to help scouts find their honor. A CM leads his boys on a hike so they have a wonderful experience. A SM follows scouts to allow them to find the wonder in their experience. I am not saying the CM role is any less important to the scouting program. On the contrary, like a student who learns to respect teachers for their education as they go out in society, scouts learn to respect adults for their wisdom as they move into the self independent troop program. Without that respect, a scout is less likely to seek guidance during his time in the troop. The SM needs to have a good knowledge of the troop program. He needs to understand how it offers boys what few other youth organizations do--courage of conviction. Each boy has dreams, and our goal is to motivate him to strive for his dreams, not force him to fit in ours. It is important to know how scouting makes a difference for a boy. Each one of us is born with a temperament that drives our emotions. It cannot be changed or taken away because it is part of us. We need that temperament or emotions to set us in action when we are hungry, confront danger or challenged. But without the character or logical part of us to balance our temperament, we might react with anger or fear instead of reason. We are not born with character, it is something we develop from life's experiences. Our personality (what others see in us) is the balance of character and temperament working together. As we grow into adults, we develop character by watching the behavior of people we respect, and by habits of behavior we develop in our environment. This is why a troop works so well, it provides a fun and adventurous environment that encourages scout to practice positive habits of behavior guided by the scout law. The challenging nature of the program sometimes pushes the scouts to struggle beyond their normal behavior where temperament overrides logical thinking and dominates their actions. Adults (and other scouts) are there to help the scout identify mistakes and guide him to learn better habits of behavior. This is how we reinforce character. If we protect our youth from struggles that show the ugly beast of over-reacting emotions, they never learn how to control themselves in those situations. Scouting is safe because we adults can monitor the boys when they are pushed to the limit. The job of the SM is to be ready to guide the change in the right direction. This is where a boy learns to be a man of character. Training is a must for Scoutmastering because it gets you in the right frame of mind and gives you some leadership habits for leading a Troop. Just like boys who may overreact to emotions in struggle, adults do the same in situations they are not prepared to deal with in the troop. Start reading. First get the Scoutmaster Handbook. Learn the three Aims and the eight Methods of Scouting. Remember that you are responsible for the Aims, the Scouts are responsible for the Methods. If you start to confuse that, you're likely to focus on the scouts destination, not their journey. The destination, which is the scouts goals and dreams are the scouts responsibility. The journey, which is the troop program is the SM's responsibility. That is why you don't see any objective goals in the Aims of Scouting. You must learn to understand how the methods get you to the aims. Get in the mind of the original SM by reading anything you can find on Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt. There's lots of stuff on the Internet. There is also an old publication called "Principles of Scoutmastership in Relation to Developing the boy" which is a great resource that combines the wisdom of Baden-Powell with the Aims and Methods of Scouting. Practice to understand how learning to tie knots in a duct tape society can make a better man of character. Learn how good followers make great leaders. Don't set goals for any scout because that makes him follow your visions, not his. Teach the boy to set his own goals so he finds himself as he pursues them. Don't build a bunch of you, guide them to find themselves. Build a quality program for the scouts journey so that their goals are challenging, but not impossible. Help them build habits that keep their temperament in check during struggle, and use their emotions for noble motivations. Be humble in your leadership. A CM stands proudly with his scouts, a SM is the shadow behind his young men standing proud of their accomplishments. Your rewards are not immediate, but come when you least expect them. Your stature will give you instant respect, but your relationship with the scouts will build lasting memories. You will have many opportunities with youth in your community as a coach, teacher, or cheering spectator. Scoutmastering is all of that, and more. You have just been given the opportunity to build men of character and leaders of integrity. You are the Master Scout. If all goes well, the scouts will go home saying "I like myself when I'm with the Troop". I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Well, Im not a Venture or Ship leader and I dont play one on TV. Ship Leader? Is that right? Anyway I have two friends who are Venture Crew leaders and I have to say that their experience is almost identical to yours Eamonn. The girls kind of run the crews and seem a little offended by any boy who has a scouting experience and attempts to use his skills. My friends are also a little disappointed with the lack of skills that his Boy Scouts should know but dont. They also are unsure of where they personally should push and where to let things just coast. Their meetings are OK, but most of the enthusiasm comes more from the female side of the groups. Two thirds of the membership is girls in both crews. Your part about the girl telling the boy how she enjoyed peeing outside only reminds me how raising my 16 year old daughter is much much much much harder than raising my two sons. I must say that everyday with my daughter makes me feel like I know nothing as a parent and Im starting over. After working with hundreds of teenage boys, it just doesnt seem fair. I have a couple of questions: What is your personal vision for your ship and if what do you think would happen at a meeting if the adult leaders didnt show up? I love this scouting stuff. Barry