Eagledad

>>As a seventeen year old, presumably lookin' to apply for the organization's highest award within the year, it's worth askin' the boy to think about whether he can do that honestly.

Wow, there is so much that can be said about Scout Mastering. But humble because it is truly a learning experience and if you are to be really good at the job, you must learn from each experience. No matter what, be consistent. If the scout cant trust how you will react when they struggle and fail, they won't seek your wisdom. They won't try to risk failure. For the Scoutmaster, failure is good. Failure is opportunity. We talk so much about letting scouts fail, yet so many adults seem to get angry when they see it. It is easy to lead a troop of perfect leaders, but that isnt scouting. When a boy gets angry, when a boy yells, when a boy gets physical, or when he gets rebellious, that for you is an opportunity. For you see behavior is our job. Remember it is next to impossible to change character. For character to really change; it has to be done from within. But we do have a lot of power to influence conduct. And to learn a thing, we must practice a thing. Give your scouts the opportunities to practice conduct guided by the Scout Law and Oath hoping that they practice it enough to develop habits. From those habits, they have the ability to influence their character. It is hard to express the power you hold because looking at it from your side now, you only have apprehension and vision. You have to rely on passion to feed your one hour a week. But looking at it from my side, I have experience and memories to feed my obsession of scouting. I can say with all my heart that it all really works because I have been there. Trust in the program and trust in yourself because there will be nights you wont be able to sleep from the frustration. You will be rewarded however. They will come when you least expect them and from those you could never imagine. It will be those times that you wont be able to sleep because the grin on your face and from the continuous prayers of thanks. You are now the leader of troop philosophy. What you say goes. For whatever reason, most folks will not question your wisdom, even when it is really just a theory that has not yet been hardened from the fire of experience. You are the magnet where everyone wants to stand. They could ask anyone answers to their questions, but they will go to the Scoutmaster. Why, because until you loose their trust, you are ten feet tall and you know it all. What you say goes and what goes is the Scoutmasters will. In reality you dont deserve it because such power should be earned. But it yours, so be gentle, be humble, be compassionate, be honest, and be brave. A boy is no less and no more than a small chick in your hands. Too much pressure will kill him his will, too little will allow him to fly off to something more appealing. Always let the Scout Law be your guide. Not in words, but in all your actions. Boys dont listen, they only watch. And they watch all the time. You will learn that you are the scoutmaster of families, not boys. The hired you to help in their quest of making thier son into a man. But when you guide the boy, the family will watch, follow and thirst for more. You will find yourself Scoutmastering adults and pull from it. Boys want adventure, adults want everything else. Mothers are the hardest because their nature is to protect their young. Part of that protection is making a trail for their son. YOur job is difficult because a troop is where the boy makes his own trail. Choose your words carefully and mom will let her son take the lead. But challenge her job of protecting her son, you will meet the impassible force. You work for the family, stand your ground and protect your philosphy, but never assume yourself more important than your are. You are the Scoutmaster, but you are only the scoutmaster. There are only few places left where a boy can truly feel good about himself because adults have so much to say about every action a boy makes today. But there is still the troop. A troop needs to be a place of refuge, a place of opportunity and a place where dreams can come true. A troop has to be a place mystery and a place where a boy has the confidence to venture in the dark and safe enough to keep trying. I felt best as a scoutmaster when I knew the boys went home saying I like myself when Im with the Troop. And truly, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My take? You're dealing with a lad with low self-esteem, who had another notch at his sense of worth hacked out with the election. I would speak with the boy and let him know you heard what happened, you understand how frustrating it was, that you see this as an expression of that frustration, but that it was an inappropriate way to express that frustration.

>>This may just be semantics, but is there any reason the Troop can't have multiple Quartermasters?

>>I didnt think that this little discussion had any impact but I saw on some of the course evaluations that they thought the presentation of the different views of the Patrol Methods was one of the things that they got the most out of the training.

>>I had just about finished imparting my wise words when a storm came through and knocked out the power. So every thing was lost.

This is a really good question with some really good replies. Cubscoutjo had an excellent reply that I hope to try someday. As a Cub Scout leader, if I held the sign up more then ten seconds, I took that as an indication that I wasnt doing a very good job with the program at that moment, so I changed it. But I can also see using SubscoutJos suggestions for that especially talkative cub. On the troop side, we taught the scouts that the sign was to be respected and not abused. Only use it long enough to get the groups attention, no longer. The sign was important in our troop because we dont yell. I didnt like yelling and didnt like my leaders to yell, adults or youth. I told them that yelling is an indication of weak leadership and that was a good time to learn a new leadership technique. We train the PLC that when anybody puts up the sign, the PLC as a team needs to respond immediately to set the example for the whole troop. If a few scouts clearly are busy in an activity and dont see the sign, then someone just needs to politely get their attention. In our Troop, the adults are encouraged to never put up their sign until a scout has put his up first. If an adult personally needs the groups attention, they ask a scout to get it for them. That way the adults learn to bow to scouts as the leaders of the group. There are some really good replies here that I wished I had read 15 years ago. Also I found once the group gets use to style of leadership, they follow it until someone forces a change. So consistency goes a long ways. Great question and answers, thanks. Barry

>>As to date, we have shown only one side of ourselves. It is time to at least try a different approach. What we are doing is simply not working.

Boy, weve done many of these kinds of trips and learned a lot. The more you break up the group, the faster and less stressful it can go. Eight to ten hours is about all most drivers and passengers can stand. After that everyone starts to get a little edgy. We found that it is best to have two adults per car. Not so much to give drivers a break from driving, but so one adult can attend to the scouts and prevent the driver from getting distracted. Also, we once had a driver get very sick in a matter of minutes. Our other adult was able to help the sick driver get comfortable in the back seat then continue to the next town an hour away where we took him to a hospital. And, it is nice to have an adult to talk to during a 10 hour drive. Never drive in caravan. The BSA sets that as a policy because most accidents in units occur with cars in the caravan. But we found it is just less stressful on all the drivers if they drive at a speed more comfortable for them and not focus on the car in front of them in heavy traffic. Typically all the cars arrive at the destination within 20 minutes even on long 500 mile trips. And it is much easier to manage one car load of scouts at stops than a whole unit of them. Add ten minutes for each additional car that stop together for a break or lunch. Our Troop usually gives each car a packet that includes: a. Detail directions along with a map to the destination. b. A list of phone numbers that includes all the drivers and a few numbers of spouses at home just in case of an emergency and cell phones are unreliable. c. Suggested stops for gas, breaks every 2 hours, and lunch so that the each group can meet if they choose, but not required. d. A copy of each Scouts medical in that car incase of an emergency. We are use to side trips on long travel because it can enhance trips and make long ones seem shorter. Your agenda and time will dictate where you can go, but we have stopped at amusement parks, Mall of America in Minneapolis, rafting and park tours. I like amusement parks because they are almost no work for the adults, but they can be very expensive. Watch your budget. Many of the amusement parks will give a big discount if the scouts do a quick service project, usually pick up trash for 30 minutes. Look for accommodations like churches or military installations to sleep overnight. Sometimes troops in local areas can help find places to stay as well. We rarely camp on long trips because of the amount of time it takes to set and break camp. Just eating meals during travel can take a long time for large groups. There are some places (hostels) that actually cater to large traveling groups for a small fee of a buck or two per scout. They are very nice for large groups and fast for getting in and getting out. I know this may sound a little silly, but travel can be a very good Patrol Method experience for the troop. In our troop, nobody moves until the SPL has verified the vehicles are loaded correctly. One scout is leader in each vehicle and the adults should only need to talk to him for controlling the group. Doesnt always work, but in general the scouts understand the system. I agree on the herding cats, large groups can be very difficult (stressful), so make those boy leaders do their job. One final thing, we learned the hard way that scouts tend to loose respect for the vehicles they ride in as they get tired during long trips. Whether we rent vans and/or use personal vehicles, our last stop before we get home is a car wash where the scouts use their own money to clean out the vehicles to the satisfaction of the drivers. It made a big difference once we started that tradition because nobody likes to stop when they are just minutes from home. Barry

>>All of these "changes" came out of nowhere, and there has been no discussion or communication on how to get these things together. It is frustrating.

>>One of the reasons for boys droppin' out of troops is not bein' physically and emotionally ready for Boy Scouting as 11-year-olds. Why would yeh choose to take that risk with a 10 year old?

>>With planning done so far in advance, we will have a tough time getting out with a troop on a "real" Boy Scout campout.

These are the struggles that build strength in a troop. While I know it is very frustrating and difficult, what you learn here will help in the future.. Hi All I want say that this is a very typical problem in all units and your frustration is common among adults in new troops. I think your post is very important and has a lot of parts to it. First, I have to agree that your SPL seems to be the most on top of this right now. To be honest, asking him for ideas would go along way toward praising his efforts, boosting his confidence as a leader and showing that even adults dont know everything. He did exactly what we teach our youth leaders. I will get back to this in a minute. Remember, our job is influencing behavior. Scotteng says it best, if it werent for disruptive scouts, we would have no scouts at all. All of us in way or another are disruptive to others. What about the scout who doesnt like his meal? You are struggling because this is new for you. But this will not be your first, and in fact this experience should help the adults learn skills for the future. Its not just the scouts who grow from scouting. Part of how we work with scouts is learning how to motivate their behavior. Dr. Kilpatrick says it best like this: To learn how to form judgments, we must practice forming judgments under conditions that tell success from failure and give satisfaction to success and annoyance to failure. Another word for all this is the scouts need to be held accountable for their actions. All actions, whether good or bad. We praise good actions and we guide during bad one. The reason all the replies praise your SPL is because he not only held the scout accountable, but he dealt with the bad behavior without yelling or loosing control and the scout in question knew he was wrong. He was annoyed by the SPLs actions. You should need to reinforce the scouts failure by supporting the SPL. I get the feeling youre are trying to be sympathetic and understanding with the scout hoping he will change from your show of compassion. But human behavior is opposite, we tend to try and get away with what we can. The more we get away with it, the farther we push it. Human nature is we only listen when we respect and trust the person that is trying to guide us. Why do you think mentors are so powerful. Usually a mentor is someone we trust to fair and honest. The way you draw respect with scouts is to be fair. That means praise when he does well, and hold him accountable when he fails. Never get angry, only concerned. Now there are lots of ways to do this, but the point is the scout should feel annoyance when he fails. A few ideas that have worked well are asking the scout leave the meeting and sit outside the activity until someone can talk to him later. Ask the scout to go find the SM and confess what happened. Ask the scout to call their parents to come pick them up. Ask the scout to come and talk to the SM. Have an adult follow the scout around, which works really well because the scout has lost his freedom. I have never seen a scout who could stand that more than two meetings before they change their behavior. Those are just a few ideas that have worked for us, but remember, whatever you do to work the problem, the scouts are likely going to use as well because they are watching. There are many more ways of dealing with your misbehaved scouts and Im sure other folks will give suggestions, but it is important that you need to get in the habit of asking the scout questions that leads him to acknowledge he failed, usually with the scout law. Then guide him, not you, but him to come up with ideas to change his habits because to learn something, you must practice that something. As you practice this style of leadership, you will get better and you will also be amazed at the success. On the other side of this, Ive notice that your SPL used a really good leadership skill to control the crowd. Im not sure you recognized that, but asking a scout to leave the room when asking a scout to simply stop doesnt work is one of the techniques we teach our scouts in the Troop and at Council JLTC. The reasoning is to remove the annoyance of the meeting so that you can continue your business. Deal with the problem later or ask someone to deal with it out of the room if it must be dealt with immediately. That could be the SM, ASPL, ASPL or older scout. As you said, your meeting ran on time once your misbehaved scout left. One of your responsibilities as a SM is teaching leadership skills. One of the problems Ive seen in scouting today is that many adults dont seem to have leadership skills, so they dont know how to teach them. But there are couple simple rules that work for almost everyone that I gave to our adults and scouts which usually help start their actions in the right direction. When dealing with behavior: Never Yell, never. And never react immediately with emotion (anger, fear), ask for a time out to collect your thoughts until you can talk logically without anger. If you can follow those two rules, you will likely be doing OK no matter the situation. As you get better at this, so will your scouts because when it comes to leadership behavior, it really is monkey see monkey do. You want proof, watch the other troops next year at summer camp and observe how the SPL acts compared to the SM. You will be amazed. I want to respond to your comment that these two scouts need scouting the most. If that were the case, you would only have the most difficult boys in your troop. Our job is to guide scouts to make ethical decisions based from the Scout Law and Oath. I think every boy needs that guidance. The only difference between your son and those other two scouts is they need a different type of guidance to become citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Who knows, those two scouts may turn out to be natural leaders and your son inept. It only means that your son needs a different style of guidance toward developing leadership than the other two scouts. Be careful not to loose sight of the big picture. Sorry, I know this was long. I dont have the gift of writing and you guys suffer from it. I hope it helps. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Consider also just doin' a bunch of family campin', and skippin' Cub Scouts altogether. Have your son join Boy Scouts when he's ready, in an active troop.

Hi Randy I wrote this on another forum a few years ago for someone who was jumping strait from CM to SM. But I think much of it applies to everyone in your position. One other thing, relax and watch for at least six months. Relax and watch. This is a little long __________ Moving from Cubmaster to Scoutmaster Our troop has several past and present CMs as adult leaders. I also went from straight from CM to SM, but I was an ASM for three years while a CM, which made a big difference. I can honestly say a CM is a terrible Troop leader until trained. A CM usually leads boys in songs, skits, and cheers. That's the SPL's responsibility in the troop with the SM quietly looking on. A CM sets rules and enforces behavior. In a troop, the scouts do that with the SM teaching and guiding the scouts on their performance--always behind the scenes, not during the action. A CM needs to be outgoing and have the skills of an entertainer. A SM needs to appear introverted and lazy. The CM is responsible for some managing of the pack adult leaders, the SM tries to keep the adults busy, yet out the scouts' way. A CM gives badges to honor scouts. A SM gives responsibility to help scouts find their honor. A CM leads his boys on a hike so they have a wonderful experience. A SM follows scouts to allow them to find the wonder in their experience. I am not saying the CM role is any less important to the scouting program. On the contrary, like a student who learns to respect teachers for their education as they go out in society, scouts learn to respect adults for their wisdom as they move into the self independent troop program. Without that respect, a scout is less likely to seek guidance during his time in the troop. The SM needs to have a good knowledge of the troop program. He needs to understand how it offers boys what few other youth organizations do--courage of conviction. Each boy has dreams, and our goal is to motivate him to strive for his dreams, not force him to fit in ours. It is important to know how scouting makes a difference for a boy. Each one of us is born with a temperament that drives our emotions. It cannot be changed or taken away because it is part of us. We need that temperament or emotions to set us in action when we are hungry, confront danger or challenged. But without the character or logical part of us to balance our temperament, we might react with anger or fear instead of reason. We are not born with character, it is something we develop from life's experiences. Our personality (what others see in us) is the balance of character and temperament working together. As we grow into adults, we develop character by watching the behavior of people we respect, and by habits of behavior we develop in our environment. This is why a troop works so well, it provides a fun and adventurous environment that encourages scout to practice positive habits of behavior guided by the scout law. The challenging nature of the program sometimes pushes the scouts to struggle beyond their normal behavior where temperament overrides logical thinking and dominates their actions. Adults (and other scouts) are there to help the scout identify mistakes and guide him to learn better habits of behavior. This is how we reinforce character. If we protect our youth from struggles that show the ugly beast of over-reacting emotions, they never learn how to control themselves in those situations. Scouting is safe because we adults can monitor the boys when they are pushed to the limit. The job of the SM is to be ready to guide the change in the right direction. This is where a boy learns to be a man of character. Training is a must for Scoutmastering because it gets you in the right frame of mind and gives you some leadership habits for leading a Troop. Just like boys who may overreact to emotions in struggle, adults do the same in situations they are not prepared to deal with in the troop. Start reading. First get the Scoutmaster Handbook. Learn the three Aims and the eight Methods of Scouting. Remember that you are responsible for the Aims, the Scouts are responsible for the Methods. If you start to confuse that, you're likely to focus on the scouts destination, not their journey. The destination, which is the scouts goals and dreams are the scouts responsibility. The journey, which is the troop program is the SM's responsibility. That is why you don't see any objective goals in the Aims of Scouting. You must learn to understand how the methods get you to the aims. Get in the mind of the original SM by reading anything you can find on Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt. There's lots of stuff on the Internet. There is also an old publication called "Principles of Scoutmastership in Relation to Developing the boy" which is a great resource that combines the wisdom of Baden-Powell with the Aims and Methods of Scouting. Practice to understand how learning to tie knots in a duct tape society can make a better man of character. Learn how good followers make great leaders. Don't set goals for any scout because that makes him follow your visions, not his. Teach the boy to set his own goals so he finds himself as he pursues them. Don't build a bunch of you, guide them to find themselves. Build a quality program for the scouts journey so that their goals are challenging, but not impossible. Help them build habits that keep their temperament in check during struggle, and use their emotions for noble motivations. Be humble in your leadership. A CM stands proudly with his scouts, a SM is the shadow behind his young men standing proud of their accomplishments. Your rewards are not immediate, but come when you least expect them. Your stature will give you instant respect, but your relationship with the scouts will build lasting memories. You will have many opportunities with youth in your community as a coach, teacher, or cheering spectator. Scoutmastering is all of that, and more. You have just been given the opportunity to build men of character and leaders of integrity. You are the Master Scout. If all goes well, the scouts will go home saying "I like myself when I'm with the Troop". I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Well, Im not a Venture or Ship leader and I dont play one on TV. Ship Leader? Is that right? Anyway I have two friends who are Venture Crew leaders and I have to say that their experience is almost identical to yours Eamonn. The girls kind of run the crews and seem a little offended by any boy who has a scouting experience and attempts to use his skills. My friends are also a little disappointed with the lack of skills that his Boy Scouts should know but dont. They also are unsure of where they personally should push and where to let things just coast. Their meetings are OK, but most of the enthusiasm comes more from the female side of the groups. Two thirds of the membership is girls in both crews. Your part about the girl telling the boy how she enjoyed peeing outside only reminds me how raising my 16 year old daughter is much much much much harder than raising my two sons. I must say that everyday with my daughter makes me feel like I know nothing as a parent and Im starting over. After working with hundreds of teenage boys, it just doesnt seem fair. I have a couple of questions: What is your personal vision for your ship and if what do you think would happen at a meeting if the adult leaders didnt show up? I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I'm of a little different mind here. No matter how good or how organized a pack can be, there is always a parent or two around who would do it better. You guys had a vision of what should have happened and I'm not sure that any pack could have lived up to that expectation. I'm not defending the pack program, but just suggesting that you give this pack a chance for a couple months to learn how they really work. You could be just the adults they need, or it could be that they really do know their stuff and just didn't put a lot into this one outting. Watch this pack a little while and then ask to help out. Maybe your family is the one piece that pack needs to complete their puzzle. Maybe there is a method to thier maddness, who knows. Hang out long enough to find out. Welcome to the forum and to scouting. I really look forward to reading more of you post. Scouting is and should be a wonderful experience. Barry

After being a Webelos leader for two Dens and a SM, my opinion is between three to five overnight outings over the two years as Webelos. Any more than that and I found that they are actually a little bored on their first couple of Troop campouts. I actually had one Webelos Den join our troop that had camped every month as Webelos. They were better at scout skills than most second year Boy Scouts. We lost all those scouts by summer camp because they never felt like they could fit in. No wonder, they had kind of become their own troop as Webelos. I like to tell Webelos leaders that they need to take their scouts on enough campouts to where they can sleep in a tent without mom or dad. They dont need to be experts at cooking out, just comfortable with the idea. Barry

Not trying to change the subject, but now that you have been doing this older scout thing for a while, what are your opinions of the troop programs? Not just games, but the meetings and their agendas as well. How are the girls doing also? Just curious. Thanks Barry

Im not sure the tree thing is a good example, but I like it. FB is right that fear could be the motivator of some actions. Ive had a couple instances with new scouts who didnt even get to the tree because they were afraid of the dark. Yes, they had to wash the tent. Not out of punishment, but for hygiene. Our SPLs solution was for the new scouts to get the older scout in the next tent to guide them until they were more confident. Or, at least get to the tree. I guess one persons environmentalism is another person's small step toward developing courage. One thing Ive learned about adults is we all have different ideas toward managing behavior. In the big picture, our job is guiding boys to develop habits of making the right decisions. The motivations we use should never in anyway mentally or physically harm these boys. But in a world where some believe that singing happy birthday can be a form of hazing, well our choices are getting limited. I once had a tent full of very excited new scouts keeping the whole troop up on our first night of summer camp. The SPL was frustrated after several attempts to quiet them and asked for my help. I guess there were several approaches that could have been taken, but I really didnt want to get down on these guys. They were after all just excited about the whole experience and who could blame for being boys. And I really didnt want the SPL to see that getting down on these guys was the only way to control such behavior. I choose to take the boys on an evening hike. No yelling, no lecture, no threatening, just put on your shoes and lets go for a 20 minute hike. So we hiked around camp stopping every few minutes to identify stars and talk about this and that. We gave a couple of minutes to being courteous and kind to the other folks in camp and we left it at that. It was pretty much a pleasant evening hike in the Colorado Mountains and the rest of the week went fine. The scouts were back in bed by 11:30 and the rest of the troop had a nice sleep. I once passed this along on a forum and one adult replied that I acted inappropriatly because the hike bordered on physical punishment. He followed with his solution of just threatening to send them home. There you go: two different approaches to solving one problem. And each one thinking the others approach inappropriate for the situation. Pushups now seem kind of an easy answer to me, hmmm. Barry

HI all What a great subject and everyone has great suggestions. I would kike to add that our troop never plans a campout for Webelos. Instead we plan a Troop campout and if the Webelos plan to come, we then have the Troop Guide ASPL and ASM make the agenda work for the Webelos. We've do this for a couple of reasons. One we want the Webelos to experience a typical Troop Campout. The other is we don't want to plan a campout around Webelos and then have none show up. We have had years were Webelos visited on three campouts in a row. We have had a Den leader call only a week a head of time trying to fit a visit in. All that being said, we had Webelos on our Shot Gun Campout, mountain biking campout, Rapelling campoout, and a Troop Camporee campout where the scouts had to hike, bike and canoe to 15 different scouts skills stations. We make modifications where they have to made like Webelos can't rapel, so they did boulder hopping. We had Boys Scouts in the canoes and we give help where skills such as navigation was required. Typically Webelos are so tired on Sundays, they can barely cook breakfast. But what I think they enjoyed the most was being included and treated as part of the troop, not as visitors. I remember one Webelos parent asking if all our campouts were as action packed as the they were on. I told them they are all different, but typically everyone is a sleep by 10:00 Saturday Night. I remember a Biking campout where the Webelos where riding near the egde of the lake. One parent asked if I would go tell them to get away in case they fell in. I said if they fall in, they will learn that it was a stupid idea. As luck would go, it was that parent's kid who fell in. He didn't say anything the rest of the day, but I knew he was mad. A week later that dad called me and said he was trying to convience the whole Den to join our troop. He said his son went home and told his friends how stupid he was for riding so close to the very cold lake. He would not do that again. After that, the dad was convience the boy run thing worked. Dad and I became very good friends after that. I do think doing and activity badge is a great idea and can also be done as just a Saturday morning or afternoon as well. Also, don't discount Webelos just visiting a campout. Once in a while we get a den that has something going on but would love to spend a Saturday on the campout with the troop. In every case those Webelos joined our Troop. I am really enjoy each idea presented here. Hope we get more. Barry

Great post Eamonn, but I have a couple side questions; >>We have several Eagle Scouts in the Ship who couldn't plan a trip to the bathroom without some help.

Hi Goodkidsmom Our troop has done a few of these, and I will say the scouts seem to like them the most because they are bit more relaxed with the speakers doing shorter presentations, and there are a lot of friends and family attending. Funny enough, our scouts designed our first multiple ECOH and they used a simplistic approach. So start off from what you think a single would be like then modify it. >>So, my questions are, what are the logistics?> Do we go through everything for one boy at a time, then hit the punch and cookies?>What is shared and what is individual?>Do they both stand up there the whole time?> Do we send out two invitations or one?>Does anyone know of some programs or scripts for shared ECoHs>Or is the whole idea a bad one???

>>Unfortunately, these scouts are now tied up in sports and not actively involved for a few months.

I'm with jr56 on this. To be honest, I can't imagine that a 13 year old could plan a very complex trip, especially if they don't have much experience at it. So Im sure that to them it looks as monumental as a mouse eating an elephant. Does you PLC plan the monthly trips? Here is what I would do if I were you. Spend the next six months training them on planning. Start off small and have them first plan an evening trip to the movies, then an overnight trip at a local park. Then a weekend high adventure trip like backpacking or what ever. Make each trip something unusual and sounds cool. Let them know that is what is going on, then tell them that the SM is letting your group go to the movies at the next meeting. But, they have to plan the trip or it is a no go. Then you start the training. Give them basics of planning and a menu that they can follow for every trip. Something like this: Destination information like fees and times. Times and dates. Scouts and scouters attending. Transportation required and Route. Required documents for trip. Equipment required for trip. You get the idea. Start with the easy trip, and gradually make it more complex so that the scouts can see how to plan the trip. As they get practice, I think they will get better following the plan and gaining confidence. Also, give them deadlines and hold them to them. Dont wait until the deadline to ask if they are ready, they likely at first wont. Give them time to save face. I used to do something like this: Hi SPL, Im just calling to find out how that plan for the next weeks PLC meeting is going. Oh you still arent finished. Thats OK, just give me a hint. Oh, I see. OK, is it alright that I call tomorrow then?. They never say no and usually they have something to offer. Our adult for the Troop news letter is very smooth with this method of getting his scouts to meet deadlines. I almost feel guilty. Its not that our kids are lazy today, its that we dont really give them that much practice at building a discipline for meeting timelines. You just need to remind them that others are counting on them and give them a little room to save themselves. Their guilt will motivate the rest. A few of our scouts got so good at planning that they got mad if adults offered to help. But it took a few years to get our troop to this level of confidence and independence. But you have to understand their maturity and experience level of the task to know where you help or stand back. Hope this helps. Barry