Eagledad

>>Are the Troops making it too easy to skip meetings and campouts, in order to keep them at least minimally involved in Scouting? Does patronizing to these marginal Scouts hurt the rest who show up consistently?

I understand what you are saying, and you give a good explanation of how some parts or our culture are handcuffed to the addiction of fat government. I just happen to work for a government agency that gives out lots of grants for research. The reason scientists rely so heavily on government grants is because the government is so willing to give them without a lot of accountability. Not that we dont need some of the research, but if scientist really think the research has value to our society from the research, they dont need the government, they just need to work differently for funding. Trust me, a lot of scientist that rely on government funding are just freeloaders. The system needs a good slimming down. Now tell me, if Michael J. Fox and a few of his buddies ran commercials asking for money to fund Stem Cell Research, do you not think they would get the funding from folks who want the research? Instead they just go out and politicize and polarize our nation. How about a compromise. Change the rules where labs can accept public funds as well as government funds. That allows everyone to choose if they want to fund it then. It is truly and issue about the quality of life, not about who wins and who looses the next election. If we are so willing to kick Boy Scouts out of government buildings because a minority of folks disagrees with their policy, how can we not also accommodate folks who disagree with the morality of life? The above is also not and expression of my personal views. I just dont like folks blaming all their ills on the politics they oppose. Thanks for the thoughtful and kindly worded reply. Have a great week. Barry

>>Secretly I think, only if we can get the right wing politicians to stop obstructing stem cell research.

Hi All These are very good questions. Looking at these questions from both the CM side and the SM side, I learned that scouts mostly needed the confidence of meeting and participating in activities with strangers, learning new skills and camping overnight in a tent with other scouts. I know that sounds very simplistic, but I found that Webelos who had the most exposure to standing and performing in front of a audiences had the most confidence to joining a Troop where just about everyone is a stranger. Most of the Webelos that I found afraid of the Troop program were afraid of camping. But that doesnt mean they need a lot of camping, that means they need enough experience to take away their fears. The largest group of new scouts that we ever lost who as Webelos camped every month for a year and knew all the first class skills. They were bored to death in our troop. Now I know that knowing a few skills helps a lot in building confidence, but reality is the Troop is going to go all through that again. Rather, I learned scouts needed enough skills to feel familure with the environment. They didnt need to be experts. When I first was dragged in Cubs as the Cub Master, heals dragging, the pack averaged 30 or so Webelos every year with only 10 percent crossing over to troops. Five years later after changing our program, we had 98 percent crossing over with 80 percent of those scouts continuing into their second year into the troop. What we did was make sure that the scout had opportunities at the Wolf and Bear age to build self confidence. Mostly we did this with songs, skits and presentations. At the Wolf age, I asked the leader to help her scouts practice and perform the skits and songs with their scouts. I asked the Bear leaders to help the boys practice, but not to perform with the boys. The first year Webelos handed their Scouts the skits and asked them to learn the parts and practice. The Second year Webelos picked out their own skits practiced on their own time (usually before the meeting) and performs the skits. Every den was going to stand in front of the Pack at every pack meeting. The Webelos were expected to do at least two skits or songs at every meeting. The Webelos IIs lead every Pack opening and closing ceremony. The Den would pick two scouts who had to show up 30 minutes before the Pack meeting to train the Wolf or Bear den next to carry the flags in the ceremony. The Webelos I den also selected two scouts whose job was to assist the Webelos IIs, but in reality, it was basically training them for next year. The two Webelos IIs stood in front and did all the calling for the flag and prayer presentation. The Webelos Is stand slightly back and to the side of Webelos IIs. As you can see, each age group is given just a little more responsibility and exposure to standing in front of the group. Also, the Webelos IIs are expected to show up early to set up the chairs for the Pack meeting, and the Webelos Is are responsible for cleanup. Other activities I did specifically to get scouts ready for Boy Scouts were camping. Our Webelos did one campout in September and May where they also prepared the Pack Campfires. And they went to a summer campout where they camped for at least three nights. I learned that most scouts who were afraid of camping never camped in a tent with other boys and never more than one night at a time. So I made sure that the Webelos had camped at least once without sleeping with a parent and had camped at least once two nights or more in a row. I did teach some scouts skills but more to have games that reassembled the patrol they may join. I asked the Webelos dens to start their Den meeting like a Troop. One scout was selected call the flags up and lead the Scout Law and Oath. It usually took at least a year or more for most scouts to learn the oath and law without a cheat sheet. I had no trouble with cheat sheets. I was more concerned about time up front as leaders. Doing those ceremonies were huge confidence builders because the very first thing they will do as new scouts is the opening ceremony. My Webelos were always bragging after visiting a Troop that they could lead an opening as good as the scouts in the troops. That was the kind of confidence I was looking for. Our Webelos were given the responsibility of role modeling for the Bears and Wolves. I told the Webelos they had to dress in full uniform because it shows the younger scouts how to dress. The Webelos always assisted the CM when presenting awards and anything else where the CM needed more than two hands. The Webelos helped with running the pinewood derby event and they were asked by the Bear Den leaders teach Flag etiquette and knots at their Den meetings. Now that may sound like a lot for Webelos, but they loved it. And I praised them a lot. Webelos were different in that they got to wear the cool military boony hats. Those are great hats because you have the choice of several colors styles. Our Webelos were very cool and every Bear and Wolf couldnt wait to be one. I think that is more than you were really asking for. So I will let other share their experience and ideas. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My opinion is that it isn't a good match, and I told Mom that as well. Am I correct that the Pack decides the assignment, provided that the den leader is willing to take on the den chief? Is that the Committee or the CM? Of course the SM would need to approve as well...

>>The reason for a prohibition on fixed-blade knives is some ignoramus doesn't understand how to do real risk management.

MarkSs reply is right on and exactly what I was going to say. This is a difficult age for boys to take on this kind of responsibility and I think made worse because most of his patrol is the same age. I doubt really that your son is the problem as a leader, but instead the patrol dynamics is the problem. It may be mixed age but if most of the scouts are only 12, likely the patrol isnt very mature. I think this is one of those situations where along with guiding your son as a leader, there needs to be some coaching and guiding of the patrol as a whole. Just getting someone to sit down with the group and ask what is going on will give the boys a chance to explain their side, but almost more importantly give the mentor opportunities to coach these guys on the importance of follow ship, team work and understanding the task of the patrol leader. Its not that it will fix the problem because positive patrol dynamics takes a long time to develop. But it may ease the problems enough so that your son can finish the next couple months. Meanwhile, a search for a good patrol mentor is in order. I say mentor because Ive seen some older scouts do a good job at that role. Hope this helps, I understand the struggle when the SM isnt much of a help. That is his job after all. Barry

>>Eagledad, you are of course correct with the use of acetone instead of alcohol

>>Not to excuse inappropriate behavior - the boy needs some clear limits - but let's work on the adults rather than tossing a disruptive first grader out without some serious effort first to deal with the problem.

I've done this ceremony many times and it is always a hit with the scouts and parents. I do agree, practice, practice practice. Here is a copy of the Post from where I got the ceremony from way back when forums were just starting. Oh, I used a Hiking Stave with clothes pins instead of the two hangers. Let us know how it goes. ------------------------- Magic Neckerchief Graduation Ceremony Script This Ceremony is written for Webelos Graduation to Boy Scouts. With slight modification, it can be used for any level rank advancement. It is written assuming several scouts, but with minor changes could be used for a single scout. Materials: Neckerchief (if using Webelos neckerchief, the Webelos patch must be removed - it holds too much acetone, and will result in burning the part of the neckerchief above the patch) 2 coat hangers and 2 safety pins 1 large mouth Peanut butter jar with lid Acetone Water A lighted candle or advancement log with lighted candles Fire extinguisher Setup: Stretch out the hangers, attach one safety pin to each. Mix the "Magic Water" in the jar. This should be done outside with good ventilation. Keep the lid tightly closed except when dipping the neckerchief. Magic water consists of EXACTLY 40% Acetone and 60% Water (2 parts Acetone to 3 parts Water) You will need an assistant for lights, one for handling the dipping of the neckerchief, and one off-stage with the fire extinguisher (just in case).. When it is time to dip and burn the neckerchief, use the following procedure: 1. Attach the corners of the neckerchief to the hangers with the safety pins. 2. Lightly shake the jar of Magic Water to remix the components. Tightly wad the neckerchief and dip it completely into the jar containing the Magic Water. The whole neckerchief must be wet or the dry part will burn. 3. Squeeze out the neckerchief and quickly extend it, holding the hangers. While this is being done, the lid must be replaced for fire safety. 4. Pass the neckerchief over the flame. Make certain the neckerchief is spread between the wire holders. It cannot be rolled or folded in any part. Make certain that the neckerchief is well in front, or off to the side of you. We used an old broom stick, with the hangars attached to it so that no one had to be real close. If you work quick enough, the whole neckerchief will appear to be engulfed in flames, and the flames will extend several inches above the top of the neckerchief. 5. Shake gently when just the edges remain burning. This will extinguish the flames along the hems, which hold more acetone than the body, due to the additional fabric here. You must move very quickly through steps 2, 3 and 4, or the acetone will evaporate before it can be ignited. The jar of acetone must be kept away from the flame, and be covered at all times except when actually dipping the neckerchief. Acetone is highly flammable. You might want an additional assistant or two to help with this. Practice the steps above outside, before the meeting to make sure that you can get it right when the time comes. It will be embarrassing if the wet neckerchief doesn't burn due to evaporation of the acetone. This trick works because the acetone burns, while the water keeps the neckerchief from burning. Remember that the acetone will evaporate pretty quickly, or you will miss the effect. Script: Tonight Webelos Scouts _____________________ are graduating to boy scouts. Will they come forward with their parents. These young men have completed their Cub Scouting activities. There remains but one test before they may cross the bridge into Boy Scouts. "Have they done everything they can to BE PREPARED?" Deep in the heart of the mountains and deserts of New Mexico, there is an Indian village along side a small stream. The village and the area around it are very green and lush. This is very unusual, for the village is in the middle of a very harsh desert land. While hiking in the area several years ago, I came across this village and stopped by the stream for a rest. There was an old Chief sitting in the sun by the stream, and I asked him: "Why is this area so green and your people so healthy?" The old Chief replied: "The waters of this stream are magical. They assist all who come, by telling the people if they have done everything they need, to be prepared. By hard work with the assistance of these magical waters, my people have done the things needed to be prepared and prosper in life." I thought for a while and said: "I too could use these magical waters, for I know of many young men who are working hard to be prepared for life. Could I take some of these magical waters with me?" The old Chief smiled and nodded. "It is for the youth that these waters are most special." "Take something special from one of the young men who are to be tested and dip it in the water. Pass the special item over the flame, and if the special item burns, but is not consumed, then they have done everything needed to be prepared." From one of the cub scouts before us, we take the Webelos Neckerchief. And dip it in the Magic Water. Then pass it over the flame of the Spirit of Scouting. Scouts, you have passed the test and are prepared to cross over into Boy Scouting. May the Great Spirit of Akela go with you throughout your scouting days.

Actually I thought we lost those Webelos. After Sunday service, our Troop typically works on a service project, advancement for those who want it, and a PLC meeting. Then we break for lunch, break camp and do a game or two of Capture the Flag before we load the cars. But the Webelos and their leaders were so exausted that they left after Sunday service. I was nervious we ran them in the ground. Some of the scouts could barely walk to their cars. I ran into one of the leaders the next day and all she could say was they were all still trying to recover from the weekend. I thought we lost them but a week later I got a call from both Den Leaders that the Webelos told their parents that they didn't want to visit any more troops because they wanted ours. That group had 18 of the 25 new scouts we got that year. The stations were mostly First Class Scout skills. We did the navigation in the canoes, which turned out easier that expected. It was impressive because all the design and planning was done by the scouts. It was a good experience for us because the next year our scouts planned and hosted a Night Trooporee for four other troops. That took the troop six months to get ready. They did that under the Star Trek theme. What a weekend, we got nine inches of rain in four hours time. That was my younger son's first campout and he still remembers it well. But it must have went well because two of the four troops planned a trooporee in their own Council. One of those Trooporees turn into the model their District used for District Camporees for the next few years. Who would have ever thought that the one night camporee campout we did for ourselves would have led to all that the next few years. Wow, does scouting get better than that. Great memories. Barry

>>Many studies show that people without insurance are therefore more likely to postpone medical care until their problem becomes severe, because they want to avoid the 100% out of pocket expense. This ends up being economically inefficient in the long run, both for individuals and for society as a whole

>>The pack leaders are meeting this Sunday and we will discuss this issue.

This is a wonderful post WDL Mom, thank you. I think parents in general underestimate their own kids. I am struggling with this right now with my 16 year old daughter. She is teaching me through a lot of humility to ask first before I assume. I only want add that at first as a SM, I didn't really appreciate the Den Chief experience very much. It was hard for me to monitor their performance and I had some issues with them when I was a Cubmaster. But we started to observe that every scout with Den Chief experience was consistently a better Patrol Leader in their first few months of service then those without the experience. The difference was so significant that we started using the Den Chief position as one form of JLT. I even brought that idea into our Council JLT program when I was the Council JLT Chairman. I look forward to reading stories about your son in future years. Thanks again. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>So we can all deliver a quality program with a focus on basic scout skills, what kinds of Mafeking type adventures does your troop do?

>>Our national health coverage favors the wealthy, while 50% of the country has none.

Also you can design and have an embroidery shop make patches. During my Wood Badge course, our BOB White patrol made patches that read "BOB TRAINED". Oh wait, is this something different? Nevermind. Barry

Most moms go through this one way another. It's normal, at least with most of the moms in our troop. I think there are two reasons for the anxiety and frustration; First I think most moms don't understand the process of the program. That's expected because you weren't a boy scout as a youth, so you don't know how the program works. Oh I know some have talk about how advancement, leadership, patrols and all that other stuff leads to character and Eagles, but it still can be a mystery for those who have not experience standing around the campfire on a cold night talking about the lastest movies and coolest cars. But scouting isn't series of seasons leading to win-loss record like soccer or baseball. Scouting is adventure that is designed for a boy to challenge his dreams and goals all the while learning the behaviors of a man, and not even realizing it. The other problem is understanding the difference in each of your goals. Adults by nature are basically goal driven because survival depends on the success of where we are placed against the other guy. You likely see advancement as at measure of how your son is doing against the other guys. Or at least in reference to the group. Your son on the other has completely different goals. Stature is only important in that he be accepted by the group. Sticking out is risky because it could mean being out of the group. Boys around this age don't really want to stick out, but instead have fun sticking in the group. Your son is lion cub looking to play with the other lion cubs. The last thing the lion cub wants is a serious thought about survival. Not that he isn't growing. He is camping in the wilderness, setting up his tent in the dark and taking care of himself. How many of his friends can brag about all that? He is certainly growing. You want a measurement of stature to see where he stands. He is not ready for stature because at this point in his life, it means little. But that is coming. The time is coming quickly when his vision of life will change and stature will be very important. What you want at that point is for him to have all the tools that will help him succeed. That is where he is right now, learning those tools of being self sufficient, self productive and responsibile toward himself and others. He's doing OK. Growing up into a man takes a little while. But I'm finding that it goes, went a little faster than I would have liked. My sons are men now. I'm not one who believes that scouting is about only your son and you are on the sidelines quietly hoping he does OK. I look at scouting as one of many pieces mom puts in her puzzle of building a man fo her son. You should have an active interest in what your son gets out of the program. You should care and you should have expectations. As a scoutmaster, I tried to get to know the families of my scouts. Rarely did a family not know how things were going with his son in my troop. Good or bad, the parents were on top of it because I loved bragging about their son, and I begged for help when he struggled. I see the Scoutmaster as part of moms team for developing her son into a great man. So you are not wrong in your anxiety of your son's scouting experience. You just don't understand what is expected of you and of him. So ask the questions, learn the program and have have patience. Advancement? Well that is an adult thing. Sitting around the campfire talking about the fish caught that day. That is his thing. That is scouting. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The jackhammer thing put me at odds with Bob White a long time ago, I thought they were too risky

>>"I just wonder why GSUSA is let off the hook by those who complain about BSA? " Gee. Its very simple. (I asked this question on a prior version of this sort of forum). You see, girls are a 'protected class'. Boys aren't.

In just about all scouting activities, whether it be leading a flag ceremony or an Eagle Project building a gazebo for a nursing home, scouts are basically only limited by the fears of the adults. I try and explain during my training that the real definition of Boy Run from my perspective is the willingness of the adults to let the scouts run their program. All adults have fears and limitations they see of themselves. I do not enjoy rappelling. I tried it and I don't like the fear I feel from it. Should I let that fear limt the boys program? The best boy run troops are the ones where the adults push the program beyound the limits of their fears. How do you do that, you train the adults and scouts to lead and control that activity safely and wisely to remove the fear. Now most of you can see the fear of sending a Patrol of new scouts backpacking in a state park without training, but I know of a new troop that was mostly led by women who struggled to let the scouts even lead a Flag Ceremony without adult help. They could stand the thought of scouts not doing it right. But at the same time, they never trained the scouts because they weren't sure how. What we think is safe for scouts is a matter of perspective from one person to the next. The only way to deal with the fears that limit the scouts program is to train everyone so that we are nolonger afraid. The Jackhammer I think would be a wonderful tool to teach scouts because it is so easy to use safely provided the proper training a safety equipment. It's not that I want boys to learn the jackhammer, it's that I want them to learn the process of how to use tools safely. All tools. Most accidents come from just grabbing the tool and using it without any proper training. Do you know that most scouting injuries come from the saw (adult and scout). And yet the saw is usually the least talked about as far as safety because it's use appears so simple. We need to set an example of respect, not fear. Never say "No", say "Show me how we can do it safely". Barry

>>Mentorship, mentorship, and more mentorship. Adult Association is as much a Method of Scouting as is Advancement.

Our Eagles have been in all PORs of the troop after they got their Eagle. For what ever reason, most of my SPLs jumped into the Troop guide position after their SPL time. Nothing was ever suggested from the adult side, they just did that. And they were really really good. Personally I see pushing the Eagle into JASM a limitation on their growth because many scouts want to go back an old position again to do it better. At the same time, while I understand why the BSA put an age limitation of 16 on JASM, I also see it as a limitation as well. Just like there are some special scouts who deservedly become Eagle at age 14, having to wait for a position that is really their next challenge and opportunity of growth. I did not use the 16 year old restriction. >>My point of view differs from the SM in that I'd like to see these guys who have served multiple times as a PL or as SPL and/or earned their Eagle to recycle back into the troop as Instructors, Troop Guides or ASPL's. Many of the boys see it as a pride and pecking order issue and think it would be going backwards for a former PL or SPL to take a "lower" position.

>>"Please provide the Troop/BSA guidelines on dealing with allegations made by one scout upon another scout and describe how your handling of this matter was consistent with such. Additionally, please explain the review process you undertook and your rationale for recommending to [the SPL] that [his son] be offered a probationary troop position."

About 50% of our Eagles do it. Some do it before the ceremony so the folks have something to watch while waiting for the ceremony to start. Barry