Eagledad

Hi Gonzo As one who enjoys tinkering with these things and pushing the limits, why do you want to drill the holes? I'm trying to imagine any reason other than insuring perfectly perpendicular axles. Depending on what you find out on the rules, you can still fill in the groves with wood filler or even glue and then drill them out. I don't see that giving you any advantage and still accomplishing your goal. I love this pinewood derby stuff Barry

Good reply Crew. Barry

>>jblake47, I'm impressed! I've seen two different troops attempt Venture Patrols with disasterous results described by others above. When both of those troops disbanded the Venture Patrol(s) and mixed the guys back in to mixed-age patrols, their level of participation in troop events and leadership sky-rocketed.

>>Maybe because earning the Eagle rank as a youth years ago has nothing to do with the story?

The most successful programs are usually the most fun for all the scouts. They do it by constantly challenging each scouts maturity and skills. JASM is that next level for scouts who have mastered most of what the program offers the youth. These are young men ready to take on adult responsibilities and usually they amaze themselves as much as they amaze the over 18 adults. Sadly, scouting is about the only program for young men of this age where they get the opportunity to act their age. And this is one big reason why I love this Scouting Stuff so much. Barry

I having a little trouble here: Scouting is an adventure...but only on high adventure treks? I understand what you are saying, but may I suggest another direction of thinking. I know a lot of folks think adventure is the only attraction for older scouts, but I disagree. Scouts go were they feel good about themselves and leading a bunch of younger scouts in different adventures is very also rewarding for young men. I hate these whole older scout younger scout discussions because I think many adults unintentionally hold adventure back from the younger scouts. We once had a new 10 year old bike racer. Should he be held back on a high adventure bike trek planned to cross the state of Oklahoma? Troops should be an adventure. In one years time, our older scouts lead the troop to a mountain bike campout, shooting sports campout, backpacking campout, water sports campout and visit to a Civil War reenactment. We did more but I dont remember. Maybe there needs to be some thinking out of the box here. Barry

Wow, I said all that! I find it humbling that Beav and I met for a couple hours and he said in just a few short sentences what it took me a couple hours to say. Boy he is good. But we sure enjoyed talking scouts for those couple hours. Part of what we Beav and I were talking about is that adults only need to step in where the scouts maturity and experience lack to keep the program successful. A 15 year SPL with five years experience is going to run a different program than a 12 year old. That doesnt mean the 12 year old cant run the troop, he just needs more resources than the 15 year old to achieve the same performance satisfaction. The struggle for the adults is learning how far is too far? When do you know the Scout is beyond his maturity and experience level. My best answer is when the scout no longer wants to be a scout. My best suggestion is allow the scout to get reach that limit so that both you can learn his limits. Its hard, I still remember listing to a crying SPL telling me that the job was so very hard. But we both learned that day. He learned when to ask for help, I learned when to offer it. Im not suggesting push the scout to breaking down, I learned to watch closer from that experience and I did a lot better with the rest of my SPLs. But I do suggest getting close enough to learn when he is there. And adults have to learn a lot too. Ive said before, adults have to learn twice as much, faster than the scouts so that we dont get in their way. That means while we look passive at our job, our minds are constantly watching to see what works and what doesnt. Everyone should welcome the first mistake because we are always students of wisdom. But we should despise repeating the mistake because that means we are a fool. I learned quickly that boy 13 and under do not enjoy leading a troop all weekend long. He is still a boy and wants to boy things. 15 year olds however are adults, and adults can and do like to be leaders all weekend long. How can we adults compansate without tweaking? I dont know, what is tweaking? In one since this is a very difficult discussion because how can a program be progressive if something different is never tried. On the other hand, there are important reasons to hold to traditional methods that keep the program driving toward the vision. Personally I think it is the hearts of the adults who make the difference in good tweaks and bad tweaks. A few weeks ago Eamonn asked if he performed an action correctly as an adult in his unit. I dont remember the action, but I remember thinking that it didnt matter because his heart was in the right place. I know that scouts know this because I once had to apologize to my SPL for a mistake I made. He said, no harm done, I know in your heart you thought it was the right thing for me, and that is all that counts. As Beav pointed out, we are each in a different place in our experiences of life, so we have to do the best we can with what we have at that point in time. Where we tend to get off the trail is when we dont know or understand the Vision or methods. Some folks dont care, and they are the worst kind of leaders for boys. But most do care and its a simple matter of education and practice. Tweaking? It was all because I love this scouting stuff. See you around Beav. Beary

Hi all With todays technology, even many of the $40 boots are up to the task of most hiking trails. My experience is bad socks are usually the cause of most foot problems like blisters. What ever boot you buy, get good hiking socks along and liners to wear underneath the socks. Most brands intended for hiking will work fine; just make sure they don't have any cotton in the material. Moisture is the main cause of blisters and cotton holds the moisture to your skin. I agree REI is an excellent place to look for boots because the sales folks know how to fit them to your feet. But I live in the Oklahoma City area where the nearest REI is five hours away. So look for a reputable store with a staff that knows how to fit "hiking" boots. But also remember there a lot of stores that carry good boots and you might run into a good deal. A friend of mine once walked into a Base Pro Shop and found them selling their Vasque Sundowners for half price. If you find a boot you would like to try on and you can't find a salesman, a good quick test is wear the boots with socks similar to your hiking socks and stand on the top end of a steep incline. This is simulating the most stressful part of the hike to your feet, which is hiking down a steep hill. You should be able to comfortably wiggle your toes without your foot sliding into the toe of your boot. Good luck and have fun. I always enjoy looking for new hiking boots. Barry

>>On the other hand, the SM taking scouts on a hike without other adults is wrong. Not having a fire bucket handy is kinda wrong.

Boy, there are some great replies out there. Michelle always knows how to take me back. I dont think you can know exactly what you will bring and what you will take from the experience. We are each different and gifted in our own way. The bible says we grow from our challenges and I cant think of a more fun or rewarding way to grow than from the challenges of being a Cub Master. While I was a boy scout for a long time, it really didnt prepare me for being a role model for a 120 boys. I look back on my adult scouting experience and I can honestly say that it help me grow up a lot. Scouting helped me be a better father and husband. Boys will look up to you, respect you and follow your every word simply because you have the title. That to me is scary because no adult should have that kind of power, yet most Cub Masters do. But in a sense, I found myself when I became a Cub Master because it was a time and place where everything really is all about the boys. That sounds so simple, but when real life hits you in the face, you will be confronted a lot with choices of whats easy and whats right. As I said before, all of the boys and most of the adults will automatically look up to you for all the answers just because you have the title Cub Master, but one of the first things I did right was I found a mentor to help me find my way. It was an accident, but I needed direction and God placed before me a Webelos leader with 18 years experience in Girls Scouts and Boy Scouts. She was good and she was willing to show me the way. Find your mentors so that when the hard stuff smacks you in the face, you have a compass. 95 percent of Cub Mastering is so much fun that you will fall asleep every night with a smile locked on your face. 5 percent is a growing experience that will make you a better man. Keep your eye on the ball and remember that no matter what you are doing, if it is fun, then you are likely doing it right. You are the Fun tester, it has to be Fun. Oh how I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>"One hour a week" they can maybe deal with (drop off), but then we ask for one weekend a month, summer camp, popcorn sales, COH (bring a dish!), be a leader (which means double the time or more).

My gosh, I remember so well what you are feeling. And just imagine, your program only gets better. >>I hear all the time "Johnny Scout NEEDS a POR for such and such rank" and here are these boys in front of me working hard at PORs that are not needed for rank advancement, but will surely count in their growth as Scouts.

>>Honestly Brian. I do believe that Scouting is appealing to most all the youth. But, it seems to be less appealing to their parents.

>>I'm all for boy led units, but one must remember this isn't a free-for-all organization. Certain scouting traditions are not optional.

>>Seems to me the process worked just the way it should. The BOYS discussed it and worked it out. Could it have been more efficient? Sure.

>> Barry, I like the idea of the weekly meetings, however, I think the meeting needs to have some structure more than a week in advance.

All ideas here are good. One of the issues you may be dealing with is lack of routine for the scouts at home. If you can somehow get them to dedicate an hour every week at a certain time, that may help your problem. Personally I think a month is way too long for young men with limited leadership experience to try and stay on top of task that are weeks away. They need weekly goals with weekly communication for accountibility. Our Troop solve this by replacing monthly PLC meetings with weekly 30 minute meetings. I am not suggesting that kind of change, but instead understanding how difficult it is for boys of this age to keep up with a task four weeks away. Find a way to develop a routine for them that can be checked so the scouts knows where they are at in reference to the deadline. Good luck Barry

>>It seems to me that the whole premise of this thread is that the BSA doesn't understand why it is experiencing a decline in memberhip or is doing anything about it.

Hi All I was sent a private mail that showed me I was incorrect that the Girl Scout Promise was changed recently from On my Honor I Promise to do my Best" to "On my honor I will try:". I don't remember where I learned it was a recent change, but I'm stand humbled. I made a mistake and don't want to pass that mistake to others. Hey everyone, have a wonderful weekend. It's warm and sunny here in Oklahoma and my lovely wife has got me excited to put up Christmas lights and rake leaves and ...... I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>BTW: I believe the Tiger Cubs went to the blue uniform in 2001. As I understand it, Tiger Cubs were something of an experiment at the time and treated as somewhat apart from the pack. Once accepted, they were fully integrated into the pack.

The Girls Scouts have been changing their program for over 25 years trying to stop the bleeding. Values are one of those things that took a hit. Just read the changes in their promise. It now starts out: On my honor I will "try:". I will try? That is no minor change. And, while you are comparing changing programs, go take a look at the Canadian Scouts program. It made huge changes in the 90's, some of which you have been suggesting. Now they are struggling and on the verge of folding. Oh, and go look at the Campfire Kids. They made huge changes to their program as well including some political correctness changes and the big one, excepting boys. Has that helped their declining numbers? No, not really. As I said before, declining numbers in a long standing organization are usually caused by something much deeper than uniforms. The Canadian Scouts, Girl Scouts and Campfire Kids are all programs that have made major changes in their programs and struggled ever since. And while there are many contributors to their problems, Canadian Scouts major changes werent reacting to declining numbers. They were reacting to a political environment changes in the country at the time. But they are seeing now that it is one thing to say that morality is not that important to raising moral kids, it is something different when you have to trust your kids to be alone with adults who really believe such that. This is a tough environment for youth programs who base their philosophy on values. But it gets worse when those programs choose to change into just outdoor camping programs. Say what you want, you know what you get with the BSA. The other organizations are finding that parents want a little more than just an outdoor experience for their kids. Oh, just a little side information, the creation of the Tiger program in the early 80s was a reaction to the Campfire Girls changing their program to recruit boys in the first grade. I still wonder if both programs regret those changes. If you really want to take a lead on finding why the numbers are declining Brian, then you have to ignore your own prejudice, beliefs and opinions and start looking at real facts at where the numbers make the big drops. Let me give you a place to start. Tigers, Webelos and first year Boy Scouts. If you want to use an example of how well research like the Girls Scouts just performed really works, look at our own Tiger program. The BSA have been performing the same kind of reseach for years trying to find a fix to the Tiger numbers problem. Since I have been a leader in the early 90s, the BSA has made several significant changes to the Tiger program, and the changes have not done a thing. I think I know why, but my point is I think the Girls Scouts are not going to improve their numbers because they aren't willing to except the real answers. Oh, and by the way, the Tigers changed their uniform last year. We have to wait to see the data, but do you think that will make the difference? Personally I dont think so. The real question is how will it affect the Webelos program? You started off on the wrong foot with this group Brian because there are some folks here that know what they are talking about. When you want to get serious about stopping the declining numbers, some folks will be glad to help. Barry

>>My Cubmaster refuses to go over 1 hour. Is this normal? I seem to remember them being longer (and a lot more fun) when I was a kid.

EagleInKy and GE gave good responses. To me there are three parts to the question. The first is the intent of running for the position with wrong reasons. The scout is not being trustworthy, loyal or helpful; in fact he is being just plain deceitful. This is not a leadership skills issue, its all about character and nothing drives me harder than a boy in real need of new habits of character. The second part is the leadership skills. I make no bones that leadership is an opportunity to grow and learn skills that will help the scout for the rest of his life. I have no trouble with a scout's struggles and failures when he gives his all to succeed. Infact a scout who is truly trying will never find me angry or disappointed, they usually find me positive and excited that they are trying. I love to be a cheerleader. So, I dont want a scout who doesnt want to learn from the experience and only takes the position away from someone who does truly does want to learn. Leadership in our troop is all about learning. This SPL either will take that seriously and learn a lot, or he will want to consider a change. And the third part is the scouts who elected him. For whatever reason the scouts elected this young man, they now need to live with it long enough to learn just how bad leadership can affect their personal experience. There will be no adults taking over for this SPL. I start out guiding the SPL the same way I do all the SPLs. I teach them how to write and use the agenda and send him out. Our Troops PLC meetings are weekly so that I can coach and guide more often to give them more opportunity to improve their previous performances. I will watch the first few meetings and meet the SPL after to listen to his critique of himself. I will add my part if any is needed. Typically as the SPL gets his feet under him, I attend less of the meetings until eventually I dont even show up. But if this SPL is how Longhaul describes, he will find the SM hanging closer and closer. If he chooses to ignore my coaching and the program suffers, the SPL and I will spend more time discussing skills and ideals intended to help him improve. In fact he will find us together talking an hour before the PLC and Troop meeting, and an hour after. He will also get calls to check up on his planning and agenda items. The SPL will find the SM near him all the time. Something that is unusual for our troop. I smile and keep my voice normal and I dont show impatience. On the contrary, I enjoy the idea of helping boys develop new habits that lead toward positive character. Especially a kid whos intent was to use the position for his own self-serving intention over the rest of the troop. He will get a lot of advice and coaching on service to others and how the power leadership can be used for good, or bad. If he continues along his deceitful track, he will be guided on choices and the right thing to do. He will find the SM next to him all the time. At the same time, I will coach the PLC on how to handle responsibility when the leader doesnt perform as expected, or more important, as needed. The will learn how to initiate taking charge where the SPL is lacking. They will be guided on how to work with the SPL to get him up to speed. The PLC will not lack in growing and learning new skills. I also usually bring the parents in as well. Typically I get very close to my SPLs parents because we work as a team. Sometimes the parents dont want to be that involved and that is fine, but they will hear how their son performs. The worst parents are the ones who pressure their son to do this in the first place. My experience is they will coach their son to do just enough to make me happy. They are not concerned about their sons character or leadership skills, just the title of SPL. This is how I have worked with these types of Scouts. I will say that scouts learn pretty quickly what they can get away with in our troop. So getting such an SPL is very rare. Usually our SPLs are the cream of the crop. As for the For those who believe boy led means boy led comment, I understand that there are many different feelings of what boy run should really be. But feel there is a little sarcasm from that statement. It is my opinion boy run is the freewill that adults willingly give the scouts. To me boy run is a description of the troop adults, not the scouts. How much freewill we give the scouts is a matter of perspective and it is different for each adult because we all have different levels of fear and trust. Fear pretty much drives most of what we let the boys do in scouting. And, boy run doesnt ignore the Eight Methods, one of which is Adult Association. This needs to be a different subject, but I think most folks will likely find the hardest working adult scout leaders in the most boy run troops. Sorry this was long, but I enjoy working in these kinds of situations. Thanks for allowing me give one example of how to handle this hypothetical situation. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi There is nothing that really says that the SM conference requirement is intended to be the last stop before the BOR and I think your situation is the reason why. If it was written that way and a mistake was made, then there would be additional administrative hoops to jump through to get everything straight again. As it is now, nothing is required except to wait for the scout to complete the time in service requirement. Barry

>>the Scoutmaster does not get veto power over nominations or the boy's choice for SPL