Eagledad

>>The remaining older scouts resented the change to the patrol method and more work being put on them. That increased their attrition rate. However, it increased our recruiting dramatically. 80% of our scouts are now under 13 and our numbers are increasing. I'm hopeful these new scouts can be formed into a model example of the patrol method. It hasn't worked well with the old guard, they just aren't interested in leading. I wish this all happened two years before we joined. Its been difficult for my son but now he has an opportunity to set things right.

>>Have you ever really given the concept a chance? Rotating PL once a month and giving each boy a chance to sit in at the PLC , run a patrol meeting and organize the patrol for the monthly outing is a good way for them to gain experience. How does a boy get OTJ training for PL your way?

Yes, the stories of adults behaving badly come every year about this time. While it doesn't really help the situation that much, it's important to understand that even as adults, we are still learning life by our mistakes. I must say that Beasties Mom's (Beastie's Mom?) pack had the right formula for a while there. We found you can restrict and creat as many rules as you want, but letting folks vent their creativity and competive spirit in a positive manner always works best and is the most fun. Open class races solve most problems and let the whole family in on the fun. Our pack was much like Beaties Mom's and Pinewood turned into one of our favorite family nights. I remember even the grand parents came to that one. It's not just Pinewood Derbies you know, for some reason high adventure trips seem to bring out the worst in adults as well. We adults get excited and dream for months of that mountain top experience. But when it seems the boys are getting in the way of our fun, we become a nasty lot. However, as I said, experience is the greatest teacher of wisdom. I know of one adult who is a pretty good SM now because he learned from his foolishness in the Northern Tier. Boys learn most by our role modeling and sometimes that is not a good thing to look back on. And while we look down on these childish adults thinking we could never behave in such a manner, I'll worn you now that it is not a matter of if, but when our turn comes up. Have compassion for those Pinewood parents because the roles may switch soon and you might be next in line to drop your head in shame. Take heart though, humility is Gods favorite human behavoir and He rewards those who are willing. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The leap between pack and troop is a big one and some boys aren't really ready for the independence, the responsibility, and the interaction with older (sometimes a little rougher) boys, without the adults there to mediate as much as may occur in cub scouting. Some boys will hang in there and take the time needed to make the adjustment (generally, because their parents are encouraging them to do so, in my experience). Some won't do this and will quit.

>>Scout spirit is living the Oath and Law in your everyday life. Explain to him how not wearing his uniform conflicts with that.

>>I don't think there's an obligation to take that to the Committee, so that all the other parents in the unit can get in an uproar. Sometimes kindness demands a lighter touch.

>>To even hint that my suggestion of getting trained PRIOR to leading a group of boys is a "high horse" issue is ridiculous and insulting. Shame on you.

>>This is only learned through experience, and the only way we get experience is by making mistakes. Rather than getting on a high horse and telling a SM that he needs to be trained before he be allowed to have the responsibility of a troop of boys, I would advise that the leaders get together for a thorns & roses type of discussion for everyone to learn from the experience.

>>What a shame that sometimes parents themselves are the worst role models for their children though.

>>Face it the adults have to have some input we are the transportation element as well as supervision.

Most here know my heart with the patrol method. We've had many discussions and most of the time I come away thinking that most adults stumble because they don't focus on the outcome, goals or vision. I enjoy reading Kudu's post, but I always feel he hasn't yet understood the the means justifies the end. He is trying very hard to build a program that looks like the old program. But looks doesn't get you the old program. Fscout is right that todays BSA can enable the old program. I've seen it. But my observations of successful programs are the adults first understand the man they are trying to build, then build the kind of program that will allow that man to come out of the boy. Most adults go wrong in that they think they can force a boy to become a man. The old program, as you call it here, is only different in that the adults step out of the way and let the boy find himself. That is a very hard concept today. My questions here are what do you want the boys to get from the program? That is a question Kudu needs to ask as well. I don't think the answer is simple or easy. But I do think they give direction of building a program of using todays BSA and getting the old programs results. Barry

This is an interesting discussion. A few months ago I was asked to present the Eagle to one of three scouts at their ECOH. I was also asked to give the Eagle Charge and I was so honored by the request that I was almost in tears. I turned them down because I felt that was a place for an Eagle and I am a Life Scout. I have no regrets about turning down the reques, but I still think about it a lot because it was so hard to turn down. I would have given a heck of a charge. The best ECOH I ever attended was a short one where the Eagle spent much of the time thanking all those who helped him get to that point in his life. He did a good job and that ECOH always sticks in my mind. I don't remember if there was a charge. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My two accidents both were from using a bow saw, some boys might have gone home but I just bandaged up my finger tip and kept camping.

>>If this Scout is not responsible enough to maintain his own equipment and can not find his pocketknife (which he misplaced) is he then responsible enough for a sheath knife? Will he continue to misplace his pocketknife before every campout?

>>As for the driver, I think I would thank him for having volunteered, invite him to ride with someone and never ever call on him for driving support ... period. Driving isn't the only parental support task in a unit.

>>If done right, extending the wheelbase of a car will improve stability and permit the to roll straighter down the track (less rubbing means less friction and more speed

Hi Gonzo As one who enjoys tinkering with these things and pushing the limits, why do you want to drill the holes? I'm trying to imagine any reason other than insuring perfectly perpendicular axles. Depending on what you find out on the rules, you can still fill in the groves with wood filler or even glue and then drill them out. I don't see that giving you any advantage and still accomplishing your goal. I love this pinewood derby stuff Barry

Good reply Crew. Barry

>>jblake47, I'm impressed! I've seen two different troops attempt Venture Patrols with disasterous results described by others above. When both of those troops disbanded the Venture Patrol(s) and mixed the guys back in to mixed-age patrols, their level of participation in troop events and leadership sky-rocketed.

>>Maybe because earning the Eagle rank as a youth years ago has nothing to do with the story?

The most successful programs are usually the most fun for all the scouts. They do it by constantly challenging each scouts maturity and skills. JASM is that next level for scouts who have mastered most of what the program offers the youth. These are young men ready to take on adult responsibilities and usually they amaze themselves as much as they amaze the over 18 adults. Sadly, scouting is about the only program for young men of this age where they get the opportunity to act their age. And this is one big reason why I love this Scouting Stuff so much. Barry

I having a little trouble here: Scouting is an adventure...but only on high adventure treks? I understand what you are saying, but may I suggest another direction of thinking. I know a lot of folks think adventure is the only attraction for older scouts, but I disagree. Scouts go were they feel good about themselves and leading a bunch of younger scouts in different adventures is very also rewarding for young men. I hate these whole older scout younger scout discussions because I think many adults unintentionally hold adventure back from the younger scouts. We once had a new 10 year old bike racer. Should he be held back on a high adventure bike trek planned to cross the state of Oklahoma? Troops should be an adventure. In one years time, our older scouts lead the troop to a mountain bike campout, shooting sports campout, backpacking campout, water sports campout and visit to a Civil War reenactment. We did more but I dont remember. Maybe there needs to be some thinking out of the box here. Barry

Wow, I said all that! I find it humbling that Beav and I met for a couple hours and he said in just a few short sentences what it took me a couple hours to say. Boy he is good. But we sure enjoyed talking scouts for those couple hours. Part of what we Beav and I were talking about is that adults only need to step in where the scouts maturity and experience lack to keep the program successful. A 15 year SPL with five years experience is going to run a different program than a 12 year old. That doesnt mean the 12 year old cant run the troop, he just needs more resources than the 15 year old to achieve the same performance satisfaction. The struggle for the adults is learning how far is too far? When do you know the Scout is beyond his maturity and experience level. My best answer is when the scout no longer wants to be a scout. My best suggestion is allow the scout to get reach that limit so that both you can learn his limits. Its hard, I still remember listing to a crying SPL telling me that the job was so very hard. But we both learned that day. He learned when to ask for help, I learned when to offer it. Im not suggesting push the scout to breaking down, I learned to watch closer from that experience and I did a lot better with the rest of my SPLs. But I do suggest getting close enough to learn when he is there. And adults have to learn a lot too. Ive said before, adults have to learn twice as much, faster than the scouts so that we dont get in their way. That means while we look passive at our job, our minds are constantly watching to see what works and what doesnt. Everyone should welcome the first mistake because we are always students of wisdom. But we should despise repeating the mistake because that means we are a fool. I learned quickly that boy 13 and under do not enjoy leading a troop all weekend long. He is still a boy and wants to boy things. 15 year olds however are adults, and adults can and do like to be leaders all weekend long. How can we adults compansate without tweaking? I dont know, what is tweaking? In one since this is a very difficult discussion because how can a program be progressive if something different is never tried. On the other hand, there are important reasons to hold to traditional methods that keep the program driving toward the vision. Personally I think it is the hearts of the adults who make the difference in good tweaks and bad tweaks. A few weeks ago Eamonn asked if he performed an action correctly as an adult in his unit. I dont remember the action, but I remember thinking that it didnt matter because his heart was in the right place. I know that scouts know this because I once had to apologize to my SPL for a mistake I made. He said, no harm done, I know in your heart you thought it was the right thing for me, and that is all that counts. As Beav pointed out, we are each in a different place in our experiences of life, so we have to do the best we can with what we have at that point in time. Where we tend to get off the trail is when we dont know or understand the Vision or methods. Some folks dont care, and they are the worst kind of leaders for boys. But most do care and its a simple matter of education and practice. Tweaking? It was all because I love this scouting stuff. See you around Beav. Beary

Hi all With todays technology, even many of the $40 boots are up to the task of most hiking trails. My experience is bad socks are usually the cause of most foot problems like blisters. What ever boot you buy, get good hiking socks along and liners to wear underneath the socks. Most brands intended for hiking will work fine; just make sure they don't have any cotton in the material. Moisture is the main cause of blisters and cotton holds the moisture to your skin. I agree REI is an excellent place to look for boots because the sales folks know how to fit them to your feet. But I live in the Oklahoma City area where the nearest REI is five hours away. So look for a reputable store with a staff that knows how to fit "hiking" boots. But also remember there a lot of stores that carry good boots and you might run into a good deal. A friend of mine once walked into a Base Pro Shop and found them selling their Vasque Sundowners for half price. If you find a boot you would like to try on and you can't find a salesman, a good quick test is wear the boots with socks similar to your hiking socks and stand on the top end of a steep incline. This is simulating the most stressful part of the hike to your feet, which is hiking down a steep hill. You should be able to comfortably wiggle your toes without your foot sliding into the toe of your boot. Good luck and have fun. I always enjoy looking for new hiking boots. Barry

>>On the other hand, the SM taking scouts on a hike without other adults is wrong. Not having a fire bucket handy is kinda wrong.