Eagledad

I was in charge of developing a Webelos to Scouts program for our distirct. We tried a lot of ideas, but the one biggest hurdle I found for both the Webelos and Troop leaders was meeting each other. If nothing else, have a district coffee, or lunch or snack or what ever you want to call it, but creat an opportunity for all the leaders to casually meet each other and put a face with a name. Invite the SPLs as well if possible, but a minimum, get the SMs and Webelos leaders together. It makes a huge difference for the Webelos leaders looking to hookup for meetings and outdoor activities. Huge! Barry

Our pack had three CCs in three years. All three committed to the job for several years, but unexpected events force them to move on. The pack didn't suffer from the changes because all our leaders train an assistant. Whatever you decide, always train assistance as if you might not be there next year.

>>Barry, I understand that is what your faith teaches, but please dont presume that mine teaches the same thing. I don't acknowledge your god and I rather suspect you wouldn't recognize mine.

Tell you what; as soon as you can get religions to agree on whether polygamy and eating bacon is moral or not, get back to me. Hey, the BSA doesn't dictate which religion has the final word, only that a scout will do his best to do his duty to God. God is the one source of morality, choice of religion is how each person gets personal with God and find their moral base. Scouting is just a place to practice. Barry

HI All I kind of follow these threads every once in a while to see the angst of the day. I like that we have forum to ponder our thoughts and even challenge us to think in a different direction. This one started off OK, but when it gets to the BSA is bad and if they did it my way, well then. Thank goodness the BSA doesnt change with the mood of the times because I think this subject has gone in the direction of: Scouting is a wonderful program for our youth until the adults get involved. Take religion out? How in the world can any organization agree on any form of moral development without religion? Without a reference to a single source, in this case God, you only end up with compromises of a consortium to what feels good at the moment. My Girl Scout Leader friends tell me this is a huge problem in their program right now and they are afraid the Girls Scouts are close to only being known as a place to just get cookies. What is that saying; If you dont believe in God, you will believe in anything. For the morals of the Scout Law to have integrity, there has to be a single source. Now you may disagree, but that is why we have choices. Take religion out of the BSA and the program becomes purely a camping program. It would then surely fail. You want to ask the BSA to add a program because the Cubs have to do it. Well OK, but either more religion or no religion? Barry

Hi All Well since that is my quote, I would like to contribute; our troop uses the Patrol Leaders handbook (PLHB) and the Senior Patrol Leaders handbook (SPLHB). The SPL and ASPL will from time to time review those handbooks and see where the troop and patrols are not functioning well and develop some training in those specific areas. Its kind of a work as you need thing, when some part of the program seems to be struggling, then a JLT is provided to work through the problems. This is exactly what I taught when I was the Council Junior Leadership Chairman. Dont get in the habit of doing JLTs just because it is something to do, give them only when they are needed to attack a common problem in the troop and to get scouts up to speed in new responsibilities. That way JLTs will maintain integrity as a tool. When you look at JLTs like that, you will find that not only are the scouts more willing to participate, they are looking to participate. Look at it this way, if your program is functioning as designed, a scout feel annoyance when he is failing of struggling performing his duties. Boys dont like annoyance, so they seek out ways to relieve that annoyance. If they start experiencing that JLT usually takes away their annoyance and makes the program fun again, they will start wanting a JLT, even asking for a JLT. I like the PLHB and SPLHB because they are simple to the point references of how to run a troop using the Patrol Method. I think these references are so good that I ask Scout Leaders and Scoutmaster to use them for along with the SM Handbook or even instead of the SMHB. 90% of Scoutmasters have never read the full SMHB. In our troop all the youth leaders have the manuals so that if they do have to discuss an aspect of the program with an adult, the scout and the adult can learn from the same resource and get on the same track. I believe the PLHB and SPLHB are all that a troop really needs to get up to speed as a full functioning troop. Barry

>>One spot where I really do wish you'd reconsider is da idea that boys today are lazy, want things handed to them, or whatnot. I think boys are boys, pretty much. They respond to their environment the way boys always have. I think when we see behaviors we don't like, we should look to ourselves and our program for the causes first, not to blamin' them.

Well Long Haul, your experience is impressive and I bow to the time you've given to our sons. Maybe it's just the way these forum works, but to me you came across fighting to sell these programs on every Troop until the day you die. The military thing really thru me because as Beavah stated, the two programs have nothing in common. I am still confused by your apparent passion for programs that even in your vast broad experience struggles against your best experience with your dads troop. Just as you stated, the BSA is trying to solve the problem, but how long should we try something before we acknowlege that maybe we need to try something else. I really think that is what Beavah was asking in his Patrol Method post. What is the difference in the program in the 70s that is different today? And, what lesson can all of us even take from this discussion? Hey, great reply, I really enjoyed it. Have a great week. Barry

>>I find that the biggest critics of NSP, FCFY and Transition are those that didnt like the concept when it was introduced. They never really tried to implement the idea and never promoted it among their peers.

>>The remaining older scouts resented the change to the patrol method and more work being put on them. That increased their attrition rate. However, it increased our recruiting dramatically. 80% of our scouts are now under 13 and our numbers are increasing. I'm hopeful these new scouts can be formed into a model example of the patrol method. It hasn't worked well with the old guard, they just aren't interested in leading. I wish this all happened two years before we joined. Its been difficult for my son but now he has an opportunity to set things right.

>>Have you ever really given the concept a chance? Rotating PL once a month and giving each boy a chance to sit in at the PLC , run a patrol meeting and organize the patrol for the monthly outing is a good way for them to gain experience. How does a boy get OTJ training for PL your way?

Yes, the stories of adults behaving badly come every year about this time. While it doesn't really help the situation that much, it's important to understand that even as adults, we are still learning life by our mistakes. I must say that Beasties Mom's (Beastie's Mom?) pack had the right formula for a while there. We found you can restrict and creat as many rules as you want, but letting folks vent their creativity and competive spirit in a positive manner always works best and is the most fun. Open class races solve most problems and let the whole family in on the fun. Our pack was much like Beaties Mom's and Pinewood turned into one of our favorite family nights. I remember even the grand parents came to that one. It's not just Pinewood Derbies you know, for some reason high adventure trips seem to bring out the worst in adults as well. We adults get excited and dream for months of that mountain top experience. But when it seems the boys are getting in the way of our fun, we become a nasty lot. However, as I said, experience is the greatest teacher of wisdom. I know of one adult who is a pretty good SM now because he learned from his foolishness in the Northern Tier. Boys learn most by our role modeling and sometimes that is not a good thing to look back on. And while we look down on these childish adults thinking we could never behave in such a manner, I'll worn you now that it is not a matter of if, but when our turn comes up. Have compassion for those Pinewood parents because the roles may switch soon and you might be next in line to drop your head in shame. Take heart though, humility is Gods favorite human behavoir and He rewards those who are willing. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The leap between pack and troop is a big one and some boys aren't really ready for the independence, the responsibility, and the interaction with older (sometimes a little rougher) boys, without the adults there to mediate as much as may occur in cub scouting. Some boys will hang in there and take the time needed to make the adjustment (generally, because their parents are encouraging them to do so, in my experience). Some won't do this and will quit.

>>Scout spirit is living the Oath and Law in your everyday life. Explain to him how not wearing his uniform conflicts with that.

>>I don't think there's an obligation to take that to the Committee, so that all the other parents in the unit can get in an uproar. Sometimes kindness demands a lighter touch.

>>To even hint that my suggestion of getting trained PRIOR to leading a group of boys is a "high horse" issue is ridiculous and insulting. Shame on you.

>>This is only learned through experience, and the only way we get experience is by making mistakes. Rather than getting on a high horse and telling a SM that he needs to be trained before he be allowed to have the responsibility of a troop of boys, I would advise that the leaders get together for a thorns & roses type of discussion for everyone to learn from the experience.

>>What a shame that sometimes parents themselves are the worst role models for their children though.

>>Face it the adults have to have some input we are the transportation element as well as supervision.

Most here know my heart with the patrol method. We've had many discussions and most of the time I come away thinking that most adults stumble because they don't focus on the outcome, goals or vision. I enjoy reading Kudu's post, but I always feel he hasn't yet understood the the means justifies the end. He is trying very hard to build a program that looks like the old program. But looks doesn't get you the old program. Fscout is right that todays BSA can enable the old program. I've seen it. But my observations of successful programs are the adults first understand the man they are trying to build, then build the kind of program that will allow that man to come out of the boy. Most adults go wrong in that they think they can force a boy to become a man. The old program, as you call it here, is only different in that the adults step out of the way and let the boy find himself. That is a very hard concept today. My questions here are what do you want the boys to get from the program? That is a question Kudu needs to ask as well. I don't think the answer is simple or easy. But I do think they give direction of building a program of using todays BSA and getting the old programs results. Barry

This is an interesting discussion. A few months ago I was asked to present the Eagle to one of three scouts at their ECOH. I was also asked to give the Eagle Charge and I was so honored by the request that I was almost in tears. I turned them down because I felt that was a place for an Eagle and I am a Life Scout. I have no regrets about turning down the reques, but I still think about it a lot because it was so hard to turn down. I would have given a heck of a charge. The best ECOH I ever attended was a short one where the Eagle spent much of the time thanking all those who helped him get to that point in his life. He did a good job and that ECOH always sticks in my mind. I don't remember if there was a charge. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My two accidents both were from using a bow saw, some boys might have gone home but I just bandaged up my finger tip and kept camping.

>>If this Scout is not responsible enough to maintain his own equipment and can not find his pocketknife (which he misplaced) is he then responsible enough for a sheath knife? Will he continue to misplace his pocketknife before every campout?

>>As for the driver, I think I would thank him for having volunteered, invite him to ride with someone and never ever call on him for driving support ... period. Driving isn't the only parental support task in a unit.

>>If done right, extending the wheelbase of a car will improve stability and permit the to roll straighter down the track (less rubbing means less friction and more speed