Eagledad

I have observed in my own experiences and watching PLCs that generally attendance requirements are an easy attempt for lesser experienced leaders to fix difficult problems. But as the leadership gets more experienced and more skilled at their jobs, the attendance requirements go away. Looking back on it, I dont have a problem with some level of attendance requirements for that reason (with in reason). Its kind of like developing a program using JLT. The BSA JLT (TLT) course isnt really all that good, but is a good start for new troops trying to bring JLTs into their program. If our troop has attendance requirements, they were from way way back when. If they are still there, it is only because no one has taken the time to edit them out of the job requirements. Neither the adults nor the PLC have needed to use required attendance for a long time. Barry

>>Mike went on to earn his Eagle & we never had another problem like this again.

>>Or we can just chalk up scout spirit as an ideal to be reached, as defined by the scout and coached by the leadership.

>>Pint- you should have spoken to the toilet-tongued Scouts immediately after using those words and not when you got to a clearing. That gives anyone who may have heard the impression that that behavior is condoned by the troop.

>>He has supposedly changed his mind recently and does want the Eagle award himself, but has failed to show "scout spirit" in any form.

>>By erecting an impermeable barrier between themselves and those on the outside of the social group, people highlight differences and obscure similarities (Think: We dont allow black people in our country club, even if they, like us, are wealthy and have Ivy League degrees).

>>Some people question the wisdom of having a "core component" that is, at best, vague to the point of meaninglessness ("My god is this rock!" "You're in!"), and at worst, divisive .....

The same basis as you, reading the accounts and watching the news. That was some years ago, but I seem to remember it all started when they were cubs. They were forced out of the program when they were teenagers. Just how many boys in Cubs would go that far because they object to some part of the program? Boys don't think that way and don't have that kind of power. It was an adult thing. And as for the BSA wanting them out, well sure, anyone when push comes to shove and every move they made was watched, recorded and scrutinized, you are forced to make the hard decisions. They were left with no choice, but I am sure that was a lot of effort to keep the boys in and prevent the situation from turning into the event it had. Boys don't have that kind of power. So far that is two boys in one family you can think of, who else? How many boys does anyone know that werent given the scouting experience because they hadnt committed to god? I personally know of several scouts who didnt know, but everyone was willing to let them have the scouting experience to learn. Most folks involved with the BSA are good noble folks, it just those self-serving few adults with a point to make that are willing to throw out the baby with the bath water. Barry

>>The well-known cases like Rick Sherman, the Randall twins, and Remington Powell are well-known only because they were reported by the media. I've seen a few anecdotal cases on the web where people have stated that they (or a friend) were thrown out for being atheists.

>>The tenderfoot requirement is a cubscout refresher. Now I don't have a problem with this because all new scouts will be brought to the same level. Plus, when teaching math for example, each progression is a mix of old and new stuff. But I could see where if these requirements didn't have some freshness to a scout he could get bored.

I hate to say it, but how about adult training for JLT. Our Council created a three hour adult course given on the last day of JLTC. Theoretically an adult had to sign up for the class for any of their scouts to qualify for the JLTC course. The course spent time in three areas: Boy Run, Aims and Methods and How to help their Scout Impliment New Ideas They Learned During The JLTC Course. Leadership Development was the main objective during the course. It was a big hit and we had several units sent their whole committee when they learned about it. Barry

>>What is the benefit to a boy who is excluded because of his religious faith or worse, the faith of his parents? The absence of answers is, in fact, the answer: None.

I once lost a whole den of first year scouts in three months. They knew their scouts skills better then my second year scouts and were bored in our troop. They weren't trouble maker type kids, but you know how it goes with students that need to bumped up a couple grades. I would be better prepared for a group like that next time. An additional problem with overly prepared Webelos is they have to be mixed with other not so prepared Webelos. I would much rather have new boys who have never camped over Webelos who camped every month for the past two years. I wrote about this a few weeks ago, but I think preparing Webelos should have to do more with getting them comfortable in front of strangers and not being afraid of new challenges. Barry

What is worse, at least in our district, less than half will join a troop. Barry

>>Part of the "Blame?" lies in the fact that many come from Troops where the POR's are filled with PW's (Patch Wearers)

Two things: How good where these scouts at planning before they joined the Ship. Is that a correct phrase? I found that older who hadn't been around planning much have a very hard time with it. If that if the case, then assume they need to learn the skill first. So chop up the planning in smaller bites. Teach them the over all plan (menu) and repeat it all the time so that they learn the big picture. But let them do the plan in smaller bites. Maybe assign each person a small part or take on only a couple parts. That will allow you to fill in blanks and keep momentum going. Do you have a simple formula to do a plan that you can repeat at the top of your head? Second, have you tried bribery? Tell them you are providing pizza and pop at the next planning meeting. That sure works for me. You can even go as far as doing a movie, but the planning has to be completed by a certain time to make the movie. I am not assuming this is a fix all, just trying add a few ideas. BArry

I was in charge of developing a Webelos to Scouts program for our distirct. We tried a lot of ideas, but the one biggest hurdle I found for both the Webelos and Troop leaders was meeting each other. If nothing else, have a district coffee, or lunch or snack or what ever you want to call it, but creat an opportunity for all the leaders to casually meet each other and put a face with a name. Invite the SPLs as well if possible, but a minimum, get the SMs and Webelos leaders together. It makes a huge difference for the Webelos leaders looking to hookup for meetings and outdoor activities. Huge! Barry

Our pack had three CCs in three years. All three committed to the job for several years, but unexpected events force them to move on. The pack didn't suffer from the changes because all our leaders train an assistant. Whatever you decide, always train assistance as if you might not be there next year.

>>Barry, I understand that is what your faith teaches, but please dont presume that mine teaches the same thing. I don't acknowledge your god and I rather suspect you wouldn't recognize mine.

Tell you what; as soon as you can get religions to agree on whether polygamy and eating bacon is moral or not, get back to me. Hey, the BSA doesn't dictate which religion has the final word, only that a scout will do his best to do his duty to God. God is the one source of morality, choice of religion is how each person gets personal with God and find their moral base. Scouting is just a place to practice. Barry

HI All I kind of follow these threads every once in a while to see the angst of the day. I like that we have forum to ponder our thoughts and even challenge us to think in a different direction. This one started off OK, but when it gets to the BSA is bad and if they did it my way, well then. Thank goodness the BSA doesnt change with the mood of the times because I think this subject has gone in the direction of: Scouting is a wonderful program for our youth until the adults get involved. Take religion out? How in the world can any organization agree on any form of moral development without religion? Without a reference to a single source, in this case God, you only end up with compromises of a consortium to what feels good at the moment. My Girl Scout Leader friends tell me this is a huge problem in their program right now and they are afraid the Girls Scouts are close to only being known as a place to just get cookies. What is that saying; If you dont believe in God, you will believe in anything. For the morals of the Scout Law to have integrity, there has to be a single source. Now you may disagree, but that is why we have choices. Take religion out of the BSA and the program becomes purely a camping program. It would then surely fail. You want to ask the BSA to add a program because the Cubs have to do it. Well OK, but either more religion or no religion? Barry

Hi All Well since that is my quote, I would like to contribute; our troop uses the Patrol Leaders handbook (PLHB) and the Senior Patrol Leaders handbook (SPLHB). The SPL and ASPL will from time to time review those handbooks and see where the troop and patrols are not functioning well and develop some training in those specific areas. Its kind of a work as you need thing, when some part of the program seems to be struggling, then a JLT is provided to work through the problems. This is exactly what I taught when I was the Council Junior Leadership Chairman. Dont get in the habit of doing JLTs just because it is something to do, give them only when they are needed to attack a common problem in the troop and to get scouts up to speed in new responsibilities. That way JLTs will maintain integrity as a tool. When you look at JLTs like that, you will find that not only are the scouts more willing to participate, they are looking to participate. Look at it this way, if your program is functioning as designed, a scout feel annoyance when he is failing of struggling performing his duties. Boys dont like annoyance, so they seek out ways to relieve that annoyance. If they start experiencing that JLT usually takes away their annoyance and makes the program fun again, they will start wanting a JLT, even asking for a JLT. I like the PLHB and SPLHB because they are simple to the point references of how to run a troop using the Patrol Method. I think these references are so good that I ask Scout Leaders and Scoutmaster to use them for along with the SM Handbook or even instead of the SMHB. 90% of Scoutmasters have never read the full SMHB. In our troop all the youth leaders have the manuals so that if they do have to discuss an aspect of the program with an adult, the scout and the adult can learn from the same resource and get on the same track. I believe the PLHB and SPLHB are all that a troop really needs to get up to speed as a full functioning troop. Barry

>>One spot where I really do wish you'd reconsider is da idea that boys today are lazy, want things handed to them, or whatnot. I think boys are boys, pretty much. They respond to their environment the way boys always have. I think when we see behaviors we don't like, we should look to ourselves and our program for the causes first, not to blamin' them.

Well Long Haul, your experience is impressive and I bow to the time you've given to our sons. Maybe it's just the way these forum works, but to me you came across fighting to sell these programs on every Troop until the day you die. The military thing really thru me because as Beavah stated, the two programs have nothing in common. I am still confused by your apparent passion for programs that even in your vast broad experience struggles against your best experience with your dads troop. Just as you stated, the BSA is trying to solve the problem, but how long should we try something before we acknowlege that maybe we need to try something else. I really think that is what Beavah was asking in his Patrol Method post. What is the difference in the program in the 70s that is different today? And, what lesson can all of us even take from this discussion? Hey, great reply, I really enjoyed it. Have a great week. Barry

>>I find that the biggest critics of NSP, FCFY and Transition are those that didnt like the concept when it was introduced. They never really tried to implement the idea and never promoted it among their peers.