Eagledad

>>The TG should be like a guy looking to be replaced. That is, in the beginning he should be basically a Patrol Leader. Gradually he should be move away from the PL role to an Instructor role. The NSP-SA should be just like the Scoutmaster of a truly boy-led troop. He should be in the deep background, only coming forward to make the occasional inspirational message or present a recognition. He should be available to the TG and PL for advice and guidance, but they should have to come looking for him. And of course he should be available for the usual conferences with individual Scouts.

>>When the following years cross oversarrive, the OBS Patrol moves out of New Scout Patrol status and becomes a "regular patrol", they now participate in a different program, but they are still with their buddies. In three years, they graduate to the level of a Venture Patrol. The same eight scouts, in the same patrol, who have stayed together with the program that the troop offered to it changing as the boys matured

Well! I apologize Gonzo1, my advice doesnt fit your situation at all. Your problem is not really a PLC high-jacking problem, it is purely an adult problem. It is very difficult to give advice when we cant see the dynamics of the adults, but I can see how frustrating this is. How does this mother get so much power? How does she hold so much respect and is it her good oh boys club? My one quick suggestion is to somehow get across to CC and SM to get all adult leaders trained. Then bring in a district trainer who will spend a lot of time on the boys part of the program. It is a way of sneaking in the training so everyone can see how the program is running and how it should run. I was brought in to train a troop like this once for about the same kind of reason. I was told later that there was a lot of pressure to change after the training. >>Would some of you please email me a sample PLC agenda / meeting notes for our SPL, please email to jgonzalezdc@doctor.com Thanks

I think Beavah's reply works temporarily for the immediate situation, but usually there is more than one adult thinking this way. And usually they act this way more out of ignorance, not self serving aggressiveness. Happens a lot when a unit gets a few new adults who have a strong personality and they take off in a direction they think is appropriate for the program. They just need a little education. When this happened in our troop, I asked the CC to give me 20 minute on the next committee meeting agenda to teach Aims, Methods, and BOY RUN. We didn't have any trouble after that. By the way, when you teach adults about the program, have the SM Handbook, SPL Handbook and PL Handbook with you so they see that your are doing by the book, not by the Barry method. Have a great scouting week. Barry

From Kudu >>Start by telling this problem Scout the truth: a BSA Troop is NOT "boy-led," it is adult-led. BSA adults do not believe in B-P's Patrol System, so they took all the evaluation powers away from the Patrol Leaders and gave them to themselves. BSA leaders call their Patrol Leader powers "Adult Association." >Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function.>BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders.">If it doesn't matter how the program is set up then you must agree that the BSA's Eight Methods of Scouting are of no real importance, but the Adult Association Method, which strips the Patrol Leader of his authority over Tenderfoot through First Class advancement and sets up adults as both moral and technical judges of a Scout's Advancement> Eagledad writes: I don't trust you Kudu Your continued personal attacks are especially inappropriate in a thread about Scout Spirit. Kudu

>>the BSA has the adult-led method called "Adult Association" which is a collection of powers taken away from the Patrol Leaders and given to the adults by the adults.

>>It is designed not to develop kids in as much as to keep parents and kids happy.

>>Since the BSA program, which is used for TLT, states an adult will sign off, I don't see how that can be seen as "emasculating" the PL.

Hey, Im with you brother. It is much better to build a system that forbids human actions of kindness and compassion for fear of that one thing that might possibly happen someday. Idealistic principles should trump common sense and logical reasoning so we can justify throwing out the baby with the bath water. Preach man, preach. Barry

I know, I know, those are all fine Great words Merlyn, Im sure they bring you joy every time you recite them. Still, more boys had access to scouting before adults forced their legalistic idealism on the system. Barry

Never the less, more boys (including boys from families of atheist and Wicca) had more access to scouting before the interference by those trying to force the program be more inclusive. Barry

>>I've seen it done both ways, though myself I always did the elected thing. These days, I lean toward appointed or screened, with youth input. Makes for more youth-run in all the other areas.

>>My answer is pragmatic. If we already ignore this stuff (and I sympathize with desire to remove dead weight), it is just as easy to keep the status quo which is a de facto 'local option' approach. So while I support the removal of the DRP as ineffective or widely ignored and the word, 'God', on similar grounds,...as long as the de facto local option approach continues, I'm OK with that too. In effect, both ways amount to the same thing. The fundamentalists and absolutists will not turn back the clock on this because the numbers are declining and BSA needs to be as inclusive as possible. And, given that the fundamentalists and absolutists are here still, in spite of the widely-practiced local option approach, they are not likely to leave because of it. They just flame off once in a while. And that's kind of interesting to watch too.

>>he is NOT the BSA PARENT figure who judges the Scout's behavior by taking Advancement away from the Patrol Leaders and holding it hostage to his judgement.>However the author looses integrity when the dialog is interlace with insults, rants and negative comments toward other people or other programs. It goes without saying a negative style of discussion doesnt live of up to any definition of the Scout Law and Oath of any Scouting program of which Im familiar.... Hit the "send" button on that classic example of the BSA "Adult Association Method" a little too quickly there, Barry?

Just because they are go-getters doesnt mean they are doing it right. Or that you are doing it right. To me the question isnt whether you should let the PLC realign the patrols or not, the question is why arent the patrols working better as a team and how can we get there? The way I see it, the go-getters are not learning the leadership skills of delegation and the non go-getters are not learning anything about working as a team. Whose job is it to get over that hump? Remember, adults have to learn more, faster, so that they dont hold back the scouts growth. In this case, you have an opportunity to try new ideas to help the scout to work better as a team. At the same time you are going to learn what works and what doesnt work. Every boy has a button, find their buttons. Barry

gwd, you are a successful SM of a successful boy run program. So I know you have answers to your questions. Your program is the best, why do think that? Barry

>>Talked with their (former) Den Leader last night and she told me that story. Seems she was also afraid herself of joining our troop because "you guys are doing it right and that just scares me." She meant that we do, in fact, turn the leadership over to the boys and allow them to make mistakes along the way.

>>And I don't know that that would be a good thing.

>> Are the alternate requirements for scouts with permanent disabilities something to consider in a case like this?

>>Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function. BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders."

>>But, maybe it would just have been better to forgo having a Spring Camporee this year.

May I suggest that you first talk with the parents. I got in the habit of talking with all parents as I meet them, if time allowed. Sometimes we talked about good things, sometimes it was bad. But I didn't hesitate to describe what was going on and just ask if they saw anything at home. I've been watching these medication discussions and the one thing that frustrated me was the parent not telling me anything, like that fact their son is on some kind of medication. When several of these kinds of situations occurred, I started asking justifying my question with past bad experiences. If after you have talked with the parents you feel there is something else that needs to be done, then go to a professional. I've had to do that too and trust me, it is not fun. Councils way of handling such issues is to first let the unit deal with it, then they will follow picking up the pieces where they fall. I don't disagree with that method, but you can find yourself dealing with a lot more than you bargained for. In 99.9% of the cases, parents are trying to do their best. We need to assume that when we talk with them. Go talk with the parents first. Barry

Yes, I was just thinking about this runaway thing. I've had one scout who ran away back home and one who ran away from home to come to summer camp. In both cases, I had a long talk with the parents to get a grip on their family situation. True, we are trained scout leaders, but in these kinds of situations, we are really just parents wanting everyone to come home safe. Barry

Depending on the numbers, we may or may not have NSPs, but all our new scouts are assigned a TG responsible for making sure they get a good start. Usually on their first meeting night, the new scouts are going through the exercises to pass the Scout Badge. We do that mostly to teach them our policies for filling out the hand books, asking the SM for a SM Conference and then asking for a BOR. All these responsibilities are up to the scouts, so we show them how to do it right off the bat. Then the new scouts spend the next few weeks learning the basic camping skills getting them ready for their first campout. After that, we will initiate them into tenderfoot skills, but basically from there they are slowly let go to do skills on their own. We provide and offer enough training that if they wanted, they could be First Class in 8 to 10 months. Our program tries to use scout skills through the yearly program no matter what the theme. We typically do first aid every Spring to re-teach those skills. I think we do OK, but we could do better. Now for my Philosophy I used when I was SM. When I was a boy scout, I dont remember Eagle being the top emphasis. I was in a very active Troop of 80 scouts and we didnt have our first Eagle for eight years. First Class was the big hurdle and the rank that everyone celebrated reaching because that is the mark where a boy supposedly could be left out in the wilderness on his own. That was how I tried to run our First Class program. Not sure how well I did, but I have always been offended by todays approach that First Class is just one stepping stone to getting the Eagle. There are a lot of discussions about scouts who dont get past TF for a couple years, and I agree with the idea that it is their choice. But when I was a scout, there was a lot more pressure to being first class mostly because it was important for the boys safety and survival in the woods. Of course I can also remember that First Class had tougher outdoor requirements. There is no doubt in my mind that if we would celebrate and respect the First Class rank like we do the Eagle today, we would have less discussions about scouts who dont really aspire to the Eagle rank, and we would higher numbers of older scouts. I think the quality of programs would climb because there would be more focus on skills and less on advancement. National developed the FCFY program because they found that scouts who earned FC in the First year tended to stay in the program at least another two years. This was also about the time that National wanted to raise the number of Eagles. I think the flaw in Nationals approach was that the units they polled who had quality first year programs werent focused on numbers, they were focused on quality of skills. But that isnt highlighted in todays Scoutmaster Handbook. My wife and I talked a little about the lost Scout last night and she asked where the other scout was? Now she never camped with our troop, but she was talking about that the first rule a scout learns in our Troop while camping is the buddy system. Im sure its the case for most troops, but since this is discussion about FYFC, Im curious to where that rule should fit. Should we add it to the advancement part of the program so it is taken more seriously? In each case of lost scouts that have become National news the last few years, the buddy system either wasnt used or fell a part. I can't recall a single story about the two scouts who got lost. Barry

>>I guess what I intended by this thread was to suggest that as long as they're being active in the program, it may be better to have a few happy older TF scout than a bunch of very young 1st Class and Star scouts who are totally at a loss for how to proceed. (And sure, I realize some younger guys really are ready to tear through the ranks - good for them too! - but I suspect that they're not all that common either. Most, though not all, of the boys who I've seen do this in the last couple of years are being pushed - hard - by their parents, rather than responding to some inner drive at age 10-11-12.)