Eagledad

Gwd-scouter is right. It saves the adults from being the bad guys and know it alls. The first time I gave it to our PLC was when they planned a weekend using Jet-skis. That was about the time I started showing scouts the Scoutmaster and Committee Handbooks so that they could see why we did anything the way we did. I gave every new PLC a copy of the Aims and Methods so that they saw why a troop functions the way it does and where the scouts could add their own dreams, visions and ideas to make it more fun. In fact, I challenged each PLC that if I couldn't justify any troop activity did toward the three Aims, they could take it out of the program. At first the uniforms took a lot of shot but the Boy Scout Handbook and ability to explain its value save me there. Giving the PLC that challenge forced me to become more accountible for knowing, or learning how every piece of the program works. I guess you could say it help the scouts understand that there was method behind the madness. Or a game with a purpose I guess. I've said it here before, adults could simplify their lives if they would just use the SPL and PL handbooks along side the scouts because the program is laid out pretty well in those two simple easy to read books. Then there would be no mystery about the program for the scouts or adults. Everyone works together with a common guide book and a common goal. Great discussion. Barry

>> EagleDad, it had never occurred to me to hand over the G2SS to our PLC and let THEM look up what they can and cannot do within the BSA guidelines.

My vision was idealistic. My experiences "in the trenches" are real. I usually make it a habit to not pass along idealistic rantings. I am and engineer by trade and we tend toward proven logic. Developing a true boy run program held within the limits of the Aims and Methods but with the goals of helping boys develop the skills to change themselves into men of character is not easy for adults. The idea that a scout can think for himself takes practice for both the scouts and the adults. Think about it, most adults simply don't trust kids. That takes practice. I am the first to say that I failed a lot more then I succeeded. But I took those failures and developed the style scouting that tended toward a successful boy run program. I'm not the only one here who expresses idealistic approaches from successful experiences. All I ask is that everyone have and open mind so that they can try different approaches in their program. By the way, in my passion to work with boys in scouting, I did a lot of reading and research that led me toward the type of program and experiences I pass along here. Just about all the resources I read came from the BSA and Baden Powell's writings. There is plenty of help to become better leaders for anyone who seeks it. Barry

>>Boys who join , don't want or don't have the patience, to see how popular elected SPL is fumbling with the agenda. A boy does not join for CITIZENSHIP, or CHARACTER building....but to have fun , excitement ,adventure, games, fellowship, challenging activities, learn scout skills , and etc.

>>there is no reason one needs to destroy any organic detritus (however small and insignificant that amount may seem to us); finally, while lightweight, it looks unwieldy compared to a collapsing stove.

>>Eagle dad,thinks that running a Troop with 14 year boy, is what scouting is all about...I think he is mistaken. Then all of us experienced adults should sit back in our rocking chairs, and watch scouting program fall apart, or at best develop into a mediocre organization competing in numbers, so to get more finances.

>>So Beavah, do you tell the PLC that Troops don't have the authority to set their own uniform policy, other than for hats and neckerchiefs? Or do you expect them to figure that out on their own? Or do you just not care about that BSA policy? If the last, then what other BSA policies do you let your Troop ignore?

>>There were three brothers in my Troop who always said "(Fill in ) sucks". No big deal. Sounds like this lady was a little too stiff to be working with young men.

If our scouts had the skill, they usually did the teaching even when adults where the students. But I think the best place I saw where adults were a little taken back by youth instructors was our Woods Tools and Totn Chit class. Every March campout, our troop gives the class to both the new scouts and adults. Even if the adults are parents but not leaders, they are asked to attend the class. That is where I heard the most talk from the adults about being instructed by boys. Always a very positive experience for everyone and a great initiation into the boy run program, which is why I ask parents to participate. I once had a dad who was also an eagle question the youth instructors technique for sharpening knives. I told we were always open to corrections and improvements and for him to go look it up in the Scout Handbook. He came back very embarrassed that he had always been doing it wrong. He was very impressed by the scouts. While I was the Council JLT Chairman, I always had the JLTC youth instructors teach the new adults coming into the program. Again to get the adults to trust the scouts and learn who was truly the leaders of the program. It works very well and I find adults enjoy watching scouts taking charge. Great question. Barry

Bob White was by far the most controversial contributor Ive ever seen in a Scouting forum. His method of persuasion was hammering his doubters into submission. He was a company man to say the least, but he loved Scouting. While he and I didnt agree on many aspects of the scouting program, he knew how to build a successful program. Personally I think we need to first come up with a general description of success. Bob White says some good things, but his list is way to long and it leaves out many troops I consider successful. I like Beavahs list because it pretty much includes most traits Ive seen in most successful troops. From my perspective, a lot of folks say scouting is for the boys, but I think scouting is an adult program to develop boys into citizens of character and leaders of integrity. For an adult program to meet those goals, you have to start with good adults. Barry

>>I heard this once ... The job of the Scoutmaster is to set back in his rocking chair and observe what is going on. If he has to get up then the youth leaders are not doing their job.

I enjoy knots also. My only job during the chariot race at camporee was to inspect and approve everyones elses knots. But holy cow, 152 knots? That is amazing. Barry

Hi All For me this is about setting the example of serving others. A SM serves his scouts by attending to their request at the soonest convenient time. A scout serves the SM by waiting for the SMs most convenient time. Also, this discussion is pointed toward an advancement requirement, but scouts should be in the habit of requesting a conference when they struggle and need the wisdom of SM. How many discussions have we about a scout who makes it all the way to the BOR but clearly has not demonstrated scout spirit? The main advice given is the scout should be counseled through his scouting experience, not just when he is ready to advance. Personally I think a week is the longest any scout should have to wait in most practical cases. A conference can be done anywhere. Ive done many on the ride to and from camp, during hikes, at the scouts' home, even once at my soccer practice because the scout was leaving town. I did an Eagle Conference at 3:00 in the morning while doing an all night walk for cancer. Maybe I tried to hard to be convenient at times, but for me that was a service I enjoyed. Waiting for a month seems like a long time. Barry

>>So what I'd love to hear from those who have "been there, done that" is, how can the district help you?>Also, I'm curious about whether new units typically have, or take, the chance to build a better/more active relationship with their new COs,>And finally, I'm REALLY curious about the time commitment. How much time should a reasonable person expect to put into getting a brand new unit up and running, in a typical week/month?

>>*Have a vision about the troop- share it with the other adults on the committee and with the ASM(s). Make sure everyone is on board.

It's been a while, but Council will accept the Scouts records. The blue card is a little harder. Without any proof, Council will likely ask him to do the MBs again. However, the scout only has to show he completed the items and a simpathetic couselor only needs to talk with him to find that he has indeed completed the badge before. Check the dates and signatures in the scouts books, cards and records to make sure they jive with leadership time requirements. Many times the card dates are when the adult recieved the cards, not the BOR date which is the offical date. Now, I'm assuming that you saying the past leaders didn't turn in advancement records. But just to make sure, I would ask the Council if they keep the hard copies (Green sheets) around just in case. Our council use to do this and we found many records that were not on the computer. Barry

I think your troop did well Ken. I cant see the house boat as high adventure because where is the adventure, and I can see how the adults would struggle on the line of boy run there. What we did was kind of define High Adventure differently then Fun weekends or other activities. I had a group of scouts who wanted to spend a weekend riding roller coasters. Not much high adventure, but defiantly an opportunity for development from my thinking. I suggested a scout take on lead, build crew including adults, plan the trip with the crew and lead it. It worked great because younger scouts who couldnt go on older scout trips joined, along with older scouts who didnt care much for outdoor High Adventure. Our troop also planned a ski trip every year the same way. This allows you a lot of expansion of your program and opportunities for development for all the ages. Multiple trips for scouts to choice from, more opportunities for leadership and planning development, more opportunities for younger ages, and a better defined explanation of high adventure. When our troop started looking at trips this way, we found ourselves doing three or four different trips a year. At least was one High Adventure. The groups or crews got a little smaller, but more scouts and adults overall in the whole troop got to participate in at least one trip a year. And you will likely find your troop growing a lot when the word gets out. Some scouts would just rather go on a trip to NASA then Philmont. As for me personally, I got to watch a lot of Crew Chiefs develop into good leaders. Barry

I'm Lisabob here, maybe it is a Bob White thing. When we were young and learning the Boy Run game, we adults didn't give our scouts as much choice as we should have mostly do to ignorance and inexperience. And the scouts let us do it mostly out of habit of adults telling them what to do. The adults are making choices based from adult concerns like economics. The boys will make the choice based from the appearnce of fun. The two can and should work together, but first they both have to learn that they can work together. It's a growing thing for everyone. I like Lisabobs idea of the SPL approaching the SM and asking that the scouts get more involved. I imagine the SM will first justify why they didn't, but then consider the idea and make it work. Barry

>> BSA has chosen to align themselves with a segment of society that is viewed by a growing majority of Americans as fundamentalist, intolerant and judgemental.

>>Another trend I've noticed is that some of the more "adventurous" boys are not making it through Cub Scouts because it's all boring and about crafts. They don't see the adventure ahead in Boy Scouts.

>>There IS a generational gap there, and it is reflected (among other things) in the skill sets we have.

We dont talk about it much, but scouting is basically building confidence to be brave. Just talk to any boy who has just set up a tent in the dark or rain for the first time and compare them to a boy who has not. There is a clear difference in confidence and maturity between the two boys. Well knot tying is the same. First of all, how do you teach lashings without first teaching the knots? You have to start somewhere. Second, watch the smile grow on the face of a boy who just learned a knot. His confidence and desire to learn another is 10 fold. I remember very well teaching one of dyslexic Webelos how to tie a knot. I did not know it at the time, but he was terrified all his friends would laugh at him because he would not be able to tie a knot. His dad had to explain to me later why his son cried after learning the square knot. An Eagle told me once that he knew he was going to be and Eagle after I asked him to teach a tenderfoot knots. Up to the point, he was terrible at knots, yet the SM had the conifience to ask him train a new scout gave him the confidence to realize he could do anything he wanted. I always challenged the adults in my Scoutmaster Specific class as to why we teach knots in a bungee cord/Velcro culture. We do it because it build character and makes builders from dreamers. To adults, the knot is a simple tool for simple needs. To a boy, the knot is a complex machine with unlimited uses. To a savvy Scout leader, the knot is a magic wand that has the ability to change wondering boys into men character. I love this scouting stuff.. Barry

Personally I think we are doomed. Society has come to believe that only politicians can fix this problem. Yet, what expertise if any do most politicians have in education? To make that worse, politicians motivation is not for the youth, but for themselves. Why in the world we let them do it is beyound me. There is really no accountability because the politicians are gone when their failures are realized. The only way to fix the problem is get the parents back into the picture, but we have let the politicians do it for so long that most parents don't want the responsibility anymore. Just ask most teachers how hard it is to get parents to even get involved with their own kids. So we have to leave it up to those who are in it only for themselves. We are doomed. Barry

>>A Scoutmaster could use B-P's principles to make this process boy-run while still working within the existing BSA structure:

>>From my experience the 12 and 13 year old PLs and SPLs don't have it. The difference in maturity between a 13 year old and a 16 year old is quite big.