Eagledad

I''m not in favor of a Co-Scoutmaster thing because there will be times that you agree to disagree. I think you can still do everything as you explained, but everyone in the troop needs to know who is responsible for the boys side of the troop program and vision. My best friend and I built our troop together. He was SM first then I took over after four years. We were of the same mind and you would have thought that we had a mental connection when it came boy scouting. But people are different and there were times when we did disagree on things. That is when the the SM at the time had the 51% vote. It will save you on friendships and cut down time on debates. True, this is a team effort, but there has to be a leader with one vision to keep the team on track. As for good readings, The SM Handbook is a great start. Get the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook to complement your other readings. Those books are really the core of the boys side of the program and that is where you need to start your focus. The are a fast read and I think you will find they basically highlight the SM HB. Barry

Hi tcherven How much experience and knowledge do you have about scouting? What was your experience as a youth? I also was involved with my younger sons pack while I was a SM. It worked out OK one my wife set the ground rules. Personally, I dont feel Wood Badge is that big of an advantage. Understand I was on several WB staffs, so I understand the course. WB to me is excellent at understanding how to build a team and seeing your goals, but other then that I would get your CC to take the course and you guys would be a great team. For a first time SM, it takes even the best adult three years to really learn and understand the position to be fully productive. If you have and understanding of Aims and Methods, and I mean a real understanding of those guidelines, goals and objectives, then I think you could handle the task because the rest is on the job training anyway. So long as you know what you want the scouts to gain in character, fitness and citizenship while they are in your troop, then youve got the hardest part out of the way. The only other thing I would like to add is on average, a volunteer typically burns out in two years. Many will push themselves to three if needed, but those who perform best after that time are usually motivated by passion, which I think describes a lot of us here on this forum. Im not sure you can really know what kind of person you are until that time, but you might consider that. I have a friend who like you was an ASM in his older sons troop at the same time a CM in his younger sons pack. He was also on several training staffs. He had always planned to be a SM when his younger son joined a troop and did become one. He is doing OK in his second year of scoutmastering, but he doesnt enjoy it much anymore and would really like to step back to ASM. He has been a full time scouter for almost 15 years now and well, passion isnt even pulling him through now. You are about to eat, sleep, drink, talk, dream scouting for the next several years. Can you make it to 10 years? Can your wife? Good luck and know that we are with you no matter what you decide because we love this scouting stuff and we want no less for you. Barry

>>I find that if a boy is trained in servant/lead by example leadership they have no need to lead by intimidation/direct command. While it may work once or twice, as soon as a boy gains the reputation of bossing or bullying, they have to start over earning the follower''''s trust.

I always get excited when the PLC changes a part of program to improve performance. I agree with Fscout about guarding the principles of the program, but I also want to see if they have a good idea. I dont see this becoming a bad it, I wouldn''t hesitate explaining my concern to the PLC and having a discussion that might lead to an even better idea. That has happened several times. I love it when scouts think out of the box. Barry

Excellent post Jblake. I applaud everything you said and wish we talked about servant leadership more, even in our training. I disagree on one point. After working with our older scouts in our troop, the council JLTC and the OA, I believe the ages these young men are mature enough for direct commands is closer to 16 and 17. The problem I found is that even at those ages, most adults still don''t see them or trust them as adults. WE just don''t give them enough opportunites to allow them to show their abilities. But give them the environment, they prove themselves very well. Barry

>>What''''s the purpose of a tour permit? Probably to let you council know where you are taking your unit & supposedly to ensure the proper traveling procedures are followed.

Beavah and EagleInKy just gave two excellent replies. Your scouts have been raised all their life to do what adults ask of them. They dont have experience with doing what the other boys tell them to do. That is new and it has to developed. As Beavah points out, they need to be motivated to respect their SPL. You cant just tell them to respect the SPL. EagleInKy makes an excellent point to always support your SPL. This is very important. He is the boss, you are only his advisor. The other scouts have to see that you also respect his authority. When you need to talk and advice, do it in private. To emphasis the important of giving the scout leaders respect, the adults are trained to never put up their sign first. The youth leaders must get control of their scouts. IF we adults need control of the scouts to talk about something, we asked the youth leader in the room to get control of the scouts for us because they are the leader. That also reminds the adults how to maintain respect even though there are going to be those days they dont deserve much. One other thing about this. IT is easy to get frustrated with scouts on these kinds of things, but it is not a scout problem. IT is an adult problem. You just havent figured how to deal with it yet. We all went through it or are going through it because no adult knows how to be a perfect scout leader first time. You will learn how to work and with this problem and be better prepared for it the next time. That you are asking these questions is proof that you are already a pretty good leader. I look forward to reading future stories of how your troop matures. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>This Troop is large (~80 scouts). PLC decides the menu for the whole troop. The Troop has a Gubmaster that is in charge of buying the food for the whole Troop. Duty roster is done by the PLC, on a patrol basis, with things like cooking assigned to a whole patrol or multiple patrols, same with other duties on Troop activities.

>>I was once told..."scouting is for every boy...but every boy isnt for scouting"...I fought the idea, at first. But then it becomes a matter of resources...where to spend your time and energy to do the most good...do your best and dont beat yourself up too badly

>>the official interpretation of the APA is that the *credible* evidence out there supports that childen in households with two same-sex parents are just as successful in all measurable ways as children in households with two opposite-sex parents. But, again, you''''ve made your opinion of the APA incredibly clear from previous posts. However, like you, I am also nauseated by the misrepresentation of research for political gain (such as a "traditional family, anti-SSM" agenda).

>>Well, Barry, I am a psychologist who actually works in that field. We''''ve gone back and forth on this before, and will get no where doing so again. You say the studies supporting one conclusion are biased, I say the studies supporting the other conclusion are biased. But I can''''t let Gonzo''''s statement go without giving challenge that perhaps it is not a solid, accepted fact as he has presented it.

>>"Studies show that children do better in two parent male and female homes." No, they don''''t. At least, not ones done by anyone other Focus on Family.

Very Typical. First year scouts are the most challenging scouts because they are going through that shift from adult run to boy run. While the idea of boy run is exciting at first, it becomes challenging and scary. Scary because now they realize the older scouts are truly in control of their survival. Challenging because they find that the older scouts are truly in control of their fun. The way through this is to have the first line of control be the TG and second line the TG Advisor who gives a lot of SM Conferences or advises the SM to give a conference. The new scout must learn that it is a team effort. Each member of the team has a role and the leaders role is to delegate. His role is to learn from the task he is delegated. But also a benefit of being on the team is giving ideas for having more fun. Each scout should be able to express his ideas and dreams to improve the program. The troop may not take up the ideas, but the scouts should see how the system will fairly give him a chance.By the way the roster is one of the best ways for a new scout to understand fairness of each scout on the team. Not that the older scouts can be unfair, but that is a different problem and a different conference. By the way the roster is one of the best ways for a new scout to understand fairness of delegating. The first six months is the most critical for new scouts and the TG and Adviser have to really work to get them up to speed. This is why in my experience the best TGs are 15 or older. I know that is impossible in many troops, but that should be the goal because older scouts are in it more to serve then to just get another requirement signed off. I never had a good 14 year old TG and I never had a bad 16 TG. As for some scouts are just going to quit, I agree. I had a whole patrol of new scouts who decided that being led by other boys was not for them and they left, after six months. This is one of those areas for adults that takes practice. Don''t just talk about the problem, try to come up with a different approach for the next group. BArry

>>I''''m getting a little crispy around the edges. Some of the older boys have asked me to be their Ventureing advisor and I''''m thinking of doing that to stay involved. And like I said, it could be a year or more. I''''ve dropped the hintbut haven''''t seen any bites yet.

Have you not been called yet? When I was SM, I got a call just about every week asking me to head up this or help run that, but my response was always "check back when I give up SM". I fully planned to help with our troop with our new SM, but he wanted me to sit back a little to give him time to grow. I was getting calls the night I handed over my SM badge and I never skipped a beat. I must say that working with NYLT was very rewarding. Staffing Wood Badge has its rewards as well. You can make a really big difference teaching adults everything you learned. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Generally, filing a suit involves finding a lawyer to take your case. Fortunately, most lawyers know enough about the law to not waste 2 minutes thinking about suing a volunteer Boy Scout leader carrying out his duties, no matter how ballistic the mom gets or how loud she screams.

My gosh, I might as well be sitting between my wife and daughter during the Love Story movie. OK Beavah, I like your comment about adults meeting once in a while for donuts to talk scouting, or something like that. I hadn't thought of that, but we looked for opportunities to meet at a local pub to talk scouting. We didn't do donuts because they are fattening. Barry

Gonzo posted the list to provoke a positive discussion for traits of a successful troop program. He didnt know BW or his reputation. Im am sure BW feels honored to have something he created so long ago used to motivate a discussion. I think most of us would like to be remembered the same way long after we are gone. No doubt BW has been smiling through the whole discussion. Barry

>>While the first statement is often true for kids who have ADHD (many of them no longer need any sort of medication after puberty), the second is more typical for kids suffering from Autism Spectrum Disorders like Asperger's. Puberty makes things worse, not better.

Not meaning any offense OGE, but I kind of feel like your statement is the most emotional of all the post. While there may have been a couple opinions given of BW, they were usually followed by logical comparisons between two different list, not two different people. In fact the whole discussion has pretty much been a positive discussion on elements of a successful troop. I dont think the discussion would have changed much if Kudu had created the list instead of BW. OK, bad example. Lets say if I had created the list. I think we've had a good discussion thought might encourage some to understand the elements of a successful program. If it would make you feel better, I guess we could rename Bob Whites list to Brand X. Barry

Boy Lisa, Ive been there and done that several times and Im not sure how to respond to help you feel better. When my two sons and I look back and talk about our experiences with these scouts, my sons dont have much bad to say about their experiences with them. In fact more funny stories about them are told then anything. Im trying to say your troop will survive and everyone will grow from the experience. But I do understand the whole situation and there really isnt much that can change the minds of adults. Usually there are a couple of adults who will stand with the scout and it appears you are one of them. It needs to be said that learning to work with such people is a good growing experience for scouts, and even adults. No different then learning to work with a blind, deaf or crippled scouts. We had them also. The problem is a positive attitude needs to be spread to the scouts. Adults are the role models and scouts read adults very well. If the adults dont like a scout, the boys will not like the scout. If the adults take in the scout because that is the right thing to do, the scouts will accept and duplicate that as well. That doesnt mean it will be easy. I often felt for Patrol Leaders who tried hard to include these scouts into a normal patrol routine, but lack the skills required to deal with their behavoirs. The SM has to spend a lot of time with the PL to let him know that he is doing a good job no matter how frustrating it seems. The Scouts cannot feel they are alone in dealing with these scouts. There has to be some kind of actions taken to help the troop. These scouts wear out adult staffs very fast, especially at summer camp. They tend to require four times the adult attention of normal scouts. You might just have to find adults who are willing to take on the responsibility of working with the scout personally. Let me just say that in most cases, these scouts got better after puberty. Natures chemical change is amazing to watch. One last note, we have had several difficult scouts and we developed a reputation in the district as accepting of them. Probably why we got so many in the first place. However, I did ask the parents of one scout to take him out of the troop. This scout was so severally dysfunctional that we were afraid he would get hurt. It was not unusual for that scout to just walk off, even in the middle of the night. I wish all of you the best on this. I must say that Ive learned from all your post that you have a real scouting heart. I think you can start trusting that. Barry

Do everything scoutldr said now. If these are emty threats, generally they will back down when when they learned that that the Council and district are invovled. If there really is a problem, you want to get it away from the unit and into the hands of the folks who deal with these things everyday. Contact the Scout Executive, District Committee Chairman, the District Commissioner and COR now. And try to keep the number of folks in the unit who have to know about this to a need to know basis. Many times the rumors can do far more damage then the situation itself. Barry

>>I have received a message asking me to edit the following statement I made in a prior post:

>>Even though it is not over! I asked him this week if he thought about working at Philmont or Double H next summer, he said yes he had, but it sounds like he may try to work at Northern Tier instead, he loves Minnesota and the BWCA.

>>Now tell me ! Boy run units ...is that the way to go ? ...jambo