Eagledad

>>I hope all this almost stream of conciousness helps. Adulthood is not easy. Sometimes it is not fun either. We muddle through, one day at a time.

>>While it won''''t solve the Guide to Safe Scouting challenges which demand two adults at a Den meeting, there is a program person who can be a huge aid:

>>No big deal. Why would it be?

HI All Been there and done that. When push finally came to shove and no one else was going to lead, then I explained to all the parents that would be my asstance. First I asked for two dedicated assistance so that if one of us got sick, there were two still there. I didnt do it for Safe Scouting reasons, I did it to maintain adult sanity. Then, the rest of the parents had to take on a month of planning. I planned all the meeting except the theme activities part. The parent of the month led that part. My part was basically flag ceremony, games, and closing. I had my assistance keep up with the advancement paperwork because that can be a lot for 13 boys (17 in my case). Have your meeting and give the parents a basic agenda for the year with themes for each month. Then ask a parent to volunteer for a month. Another way I keep better control and the boys busy is I generally had two activities going on at the same time. I divided the den in half and each half would go to one activity for 20 minutes, then the switch. That does require two parents planning for the same meetings, but I found they like that anyway. The advantage to this is you wont be over worked, your parents will become close to the boys and the den because they are part of the activities and you will have a close group of families. As for wild meetings, there are a lot of ideas here to help that. But the main thing to understand is these are boys and boys like fun, mystery and to be moving all the time. Action and activities. Action and activities. Do as much outdoors as possible. One other thing that helped me a lot with that many boys. I went from three 1 hour Den meetings a month to two 1.5 hour meetings a month. That extra half hour gave me the time for two activities and one week off for a breather and planning. You have come to the right place because there a ton of good ideas here to choose from. Your active parents will come out as they get comfortable. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Removal may well cause the Scout to walk away from Scouting. Is that what the young man and the Troop need and want?

Hi All A lot depends on your response. Do you want the other scouts to learn from this scouts example? Do you want to just get rid of him so the PLC will perform better or up to adult expectations? Does the scout know he is not doing well? Personally I look at the troop as experience for real life (real life scaled down to a boys size experience). First, I want the scout to make the decision to give him the experience of practicing habits of character. I want the PLC to see me and the SPL give the scout a lot of counseling before the scout makes that decisions so they can learn a method of trying to resolve a difficult situation of accountability. Finally I want the SPL making the announcement at a PLC meeting so that business matters are handled in proper places by the proper people. And I would guide the SPL on how to make that announcement in enough detail that the troop moves on without further discussion because sometimes more damage is done by not saying anything. Everything about this situation should be a learning experience so that it can be done better the next time in each persons life. Accountability is a very difficult skill to develop for youth and adults. Not just in PORs, but in all behaviors. Holding other people accountable requires a large portion of patience and understanding along coupled with an equal portion of compassion. Barry

There are some Den Chief trainings out there. I would call the DE and ask if your district has one. If not, ask him/her to check the other districts in the council. Our district did not have the training, so we did our own. After the district found out about our training, they ask our trainer to do a district Den Chief training course. It is not really that hard, its more of a review of what the Den Chiefs duties are with the Den Leader so that the Den Chief and Den Leader go into the first meeting as a team. I would say couple hours. I will admit that as a CM I didn''t care for den chiefs, they weren''t trained and they actually increased the work load of den leaders. But, as a SM working with Patrol Leaders, I noticed that scouts with Den Chief experience where had a lot more leadership maturity then the other scouts. So we started including Den Chief as part of our JLT program. But they should be trained or it could be a negetive experience for the Den Leaders. Barry

>> Wow, with a CO of that size, maybe they need to charter two packs? Seriously.

>>Frankly, some of the comments and reactions here leave me with the impression that bad training and disorganized adult-led troops are much more common than good training or effective boy-led troops. So I have to be careful not to burn any bridges.

I''m with lisabob and funscout on this. I support your pack''s decisions Pack212scouter because I''ve been where you are at. We never turned away a scout, but I think we wished we had. I took a personal responsibility to make sure our Den Leaders only had what they could handle because they are the key to success of the pack. Still things don''t always work out and I personally had 17 Webelos that required so much dedicated work that I wouldn''t wish that experience on my enemies. Not that I have enemies. But just as important, I had to ask a few adults to quit their den leader positions for different reasons and that is a horrible job. Looking back on it, we knew they weren''t a safe choice in the first place, but we didn''t have any prier experience with them to say no. This adult gave you a window into his behavior. Is that the person you want to lead your son, or all the other sons of parents in your pack? By the way, talking with upset parents is a way of life for Scoutmasters if you are thinking in that direction. You will develop very good social skills from the experience. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Why would you lower the expectations?

>>How, then, do you get all the scouts you put into positions to actively fullfill their position. Is it something along the lines of if the scouts don''''t at first fullfill their position they are not put into a new one until the promise to do better?

I''m so sorry. You touched my soul. I''ll pray that God mends your heart.

>>Also if there is additional coaching because of this, why is that bad?>As adults we are suppose to be coaching and allowing our scouts to develope into leaders.>If this only last a few months, then it at least it lasted a few months. It will show the Senior Patrol Leader, Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, and other leaders that they have the power to introduce new guidelines, policies, and important decisions to the troop by going through the Patrol Leader''''s Council and then working with the Troop Committee.

When our troop started getting a little bigger, many of the parents started complaining about kids leaving their cars trashed out. So we started going to a carwash before we got home from campouts so the scouts could clean the cars with their own money to the satisfaction of the driver. After a few months we quick doing that (except for summer camp) because all of a sudden the problem went away. Use this as an opportunity to teach trust, loyalty, courtesy, and kind. Teach the scouts a new habit of behavior to help develop their character. Don''t yell, jump up and down or get angry, just think like a boy and find the right motivation to give the boy a will to change. Good Luck. Barry

>>What are your views and suggestions? This goes to our Unit Committee at this month''''s Committee Meeting. The scouts have already started following the motions of this evaluation.

>>So here is our basic plan.... -Conduct a Troop Leadership Training weekend camping trip very soon. We are planning on two weeks from now...>-Engage our new PLC in planning a year of Scouting. Currently, we have a hard time getting them to plan more than a month. Plus, adult priorities always seem to override their plan.>-Support the new youth leaders. This will very likely involve coaching and mentoring the older Scouts who have effectively abdicated any formal leadership role, and preventing them from undermining their elected leaders. We will also need to protect the boys from those "adult priorities" I mentioned above.

You could try and suggest a slight change of tradition to present the patches at the next meeting and the card with a mothers pin at Blue&Gold. This is kind of what our troop does. The SPL presents the badge to the scout after they pass the BOR (usually that night). Then at the banquet, the SM presents the mothers pin to the scout for him to pin on his mother, which is great fun for all. Covers all bases, especially mom. Barry

You''re getting great advice. We had a pack of 120 scouts and did two campouts a year. One small one in the fall then our big one in the Spring. I don''t want to repeat what others are saying, so I will pass along the huge difference we found between the troop and the pack. Cub scouts requires a lot more planning because a large number of parents haven''t camped in years. They will need as much hand holding the camping part as the boys. Some families may not have access to tents. A local troop usually will help, and might even be glad to send some scouts to help set up. I will add that camping was always a great experience for our families. We even had to cancel camp early once because we got 10 inches of rain in just a few hours. They even enjoyed that. Something about the outdoors. We had a ton of food and donated it to the rescue crews of the Merrill Building bombing. 120 families and not one complaint. Hey, thought of a theme. Native American Indians is always a fun one for campouts. CAll the Indian Nations Council in Tulsa and ask for cub World packet that gives packs all the needed instructions for getting ready for their Cub World weekend family camp. It is designed for their camp, but you can still use 90% of it for your own program. It has everything you need for four weeks of planning and program including den meetings and Pack meetings. Food recipes, costumes designes, songs, skits, and more. Very cool. Barry

>>From the "Are they ALL important?" thread: "Barry - you are employing the Method, and I applaud you." I guess we see what we want to see.

>>"Boys want to know what they can expect from you as their Scoutmaster, and what you expect from them. Strive to be consistent in word and action." Scoutmaster Handbook He didn''''t lose any respect for me, but I have lost respect for you thanks to your post. How you can make such broad assumptions based on so little information is simply astounding.

>>And every kid''''s experience will be different. Scouting cannot pretend to be providing just one gender of role model because of some perceived gap elsewhere. We really have no idea in most cases.

>>So if Scouting is designed to prepare boys to be men, it certainly would seem appropriate for them experience female leadership early on.

>>For anti-uniform folks, try sending your kid to football with his jersey and pads, but a motorcycle helmet and blue jeans instead. See what happens next.

>>The issue I see is when Football season morphs into Basketball morphs into baseball and the scout is always late, then I agree with your questioning if scouting is worthwhile, but for a few months? I think the program can handle it