Eagledad

>>Since we have no idea who you are or who the scout is it would seem that there should be no concern for confidentiality as far as published BSA requirements.

>>but I believe that an out-of-shape scout may also fail to complete a trek.

>>I agree! If they have just begun their training program, I'll lay odds that some of them won't be in good enough shape to finish the trek.

I have found that when the adults dreams of adventure is bigger then the scouts, the scouts usually get the short end of the stick. Now of course we dont know all sides of the story, but something doesnt feel right about all this. I have developed and trained several Philmont and High Adventure Crews and a lot of adults tend to take a lot of the fun out of the experience. Adult/scout relations on the trails are a major problem. Philmont attempted to relieve some of the stress by using a Crew Chaplin to give the scouts an avenue to vent out their frustrations (Thorns and Roses). By the way, one way to satisfy the third adult concern is asking an 18 year old to go. Philmont accepts them as adults and they usually add more fun for the boys side. Barry

Im an off trailer. Not just in hiking or hunting, but I think of life in general. Im disappointed the political correctness bled all over the thread, but not surprised. Off trailing is action of individuality. Our society today defines individuality as becoming part of the group. I dont think there are that many people who feel an impulse to go off trail. Or maybe they are just too afraid. Going off trailing is searching out a moment of personal fulfillment without being selfish. Not going against the flow, but instead finding a place of no resistance in the flow. It is a place that for the moment feels like where we are meant to be. More often then not, going off trail is spontaneous because a moment of gratifying solitude is hard to plan. And you dont have to be alone to find that kind of solitude. I found myself putting down the fishing pole at the Fish Camp on a Philmont trek just so I could sit and watch the scouts fish. Along with scouts quiet in their task, I was surrounded only by the breeze in the trees, the trickling of the creek and an eagle circling above. Of course the choice to put down the pole is not the same off trail adventure as turning left to find yourself in the center of a meadow sitting between two mountains. But the inspiration is the same. Im not sure I can explain it where most people could understand. There are two many rules and in our lives that seems to erode our patience to listen. Barry

Hi All Dont assume anything becaue you are likely wrong, just mention the behavior and let the parents ask questions. I never had a parent resent hearing such information. Wouldnt you as a parent want to know? I talked to all the parents when we got back from and outings. Usually a few words to brag about their son, but occasionally there was mention of about not so good behavior. I wanted my parents to know everything about their sons scouting experience. Barry

>>If your older scouts are fed pablem year after year most will drop out. They need more challenge and more variety to keep growing...so a multi tiered, multi-purpose program makes for longer retention and a more energetic program.

>>As for your bike riding example, I don't think anyone has posted anything against using your resources have they? The exceptions should not create the rules.>If you have twelve scouts who want more adventure than the other scouts it would seem like a time to start Venture Patrols wouldn't it?

>>In fact be structuring the Patrols by age and skill level you can better follow the Patrol Method than by using mixed patrols, and you can keep scouts more active and interested, and in the program longer.

>>That simply isn't true. The older scouts who want to work with the younger ones can ofer their services to the SPL as Troop Guides and Instructors, as well as in other offices that serve all the members of the troop.

>>So here's an example of everyone going on the same outing, but having somewhat different activities: more advanced Scouts have a chance to do their own thing, middle group of Scouts are teaching and helping new Scouts.

Packing a pack does take practice. I think attaching a sleeping bag is one of the hardest parts of packing an external pack. But that was one reason I wanted younger scouts to get and external before an internal pack. Internal packs require a more systematic approach to packing, so the external gives them that practice. I personally remember that just rolling up my sleeping bag into a nice tight roll so that it didnt come apart from just picking it up was a challenge. Its all a learning experience, and for most, a fun learning experience. Barry

>>How exactly do you attach the sleeping bag?

>>I am surprised that you are unfamiliar with this as it is in the Scout leader training and the Scoutmasters Handbook. As well as other Boy Scout leader training and resources.

>>It's ok to have a campout that is easy enough for a NEW Scout to go on as soon as he joins (and you should). Just don't make the other scouts go on it too.

The February/March thing came in when the BSA changed to New Scout Patrols. It was kind of forced because the big idea was to get the Webelos to crossover in herds instead of by birthday. The intent was that a shy scout would come with his buddies when he wouldnt come by himself. Not a bad idea really. Im not sure National saw the changes it would force through the whole program. February/March are standard crossover months for several small reasons. If the Webs waited until the end of the school year, they would likely not be ready for summer camp and troops might loose them. If they waited until September, then the troops might again loose new scouts who just decided during the summer to not come back. February works well because that is Blue and Gold and when most Webelos were done with AOL. And most Webelos leaders will agree that their maturity is ready. So while National didnt push February, it became the most logical. To answer one other question, back when scouts crossed over by birthdays, there was consideration for those few unusual scouts whose birthday didnt fit with friends. Just like now, National didnt want to loose scouts back then either. Oh one other thing, the discussion keeps talking about annual planning. Bob is right that there is no uniform set time for annual planning. But it is still different now for troops. That is another thing the New Scout Patrol changed. Before when scouts joined on birthdays all year long, the program didnt really have a repeated annual program because it had to stay a bit mixed for advancing new scouts through the year. Now most troops follow a kind of First Year First Class program that starts in February or March. There is no official national annual planning of course, but the addition of the NSP and/or FYFC has kind of forced one to some degree. Barry

Hi Lisa Ah the memories. We learned to talk a lot to the parents. I talked about the process within the chaos. Even just an outsider watching a patrol walking from the opening to the patrols corners looks chaotic to an outsider because the scouts are joking, laughing and even poking at each other. You know boy stuff. But once you get that parent to look at how they are walking together to the next activity and that the patrol leader truly is respected as the leader, you can start to melt away some of the chaotic fog. Show them what they arent looking at. It is very important that you discuss boy run independence. Many of the adults are used to seeing and hearing organized progress. Stuff like organized advancement classes, letters from the adults and calls. They are going to get a lot less of that now and it will stress the parents a little. So you need to explain that developing independence is part of putting responsibility on their son. The program is still going on, they just arent hearing as much about it. If their son doesnt seem to know what all is going on, then they should call the troop guide or older scout. If that doesnt seem to answer the questions, dont get stressed, call the adult adviser. What you want to head off is the adult getting so frustrated that when they do eventually say something, they arent venting on a scout. While you are saving a scout from that situation, you are also saving the parent. We eventually developed a new parent program that required the parents attend three meetings. The meetings were basically an hour of explaining the troop program, aims and methods, PLC and PLC meetings, advancement, merit badges and MB counselors and youth protection. While at these meetings, we would visit a PLC and Patrol Corners meeting for a few minutes. And again, we would explain that while at first it does appear chaotic, there is process happening, it is just a youth age. As for getting a lot of new scouts, we spend a lot of time training all the scouts how to have patience with the new scouts and how to talk to them when they are little out of control. New scouts are your least disciplined and most likely to get out of control. New scout parents like to see adults jump on that, but that doesnt help the new scout learn who the youth leaders are. So we worked on procedures for all the scouts to stop new scouts running around out of control by stopping them and talking to them about proper behavior. No yelling or forceful touching, just walking over to the scouts, asking them to stop. If they dont stop because they think you are just another scout and dont care, then ask for help, but do it all respectfully with a smile. That is what the parents must see. You are right to understand that the parents are the difficult side of this situation. Many troops are so overwhelmed that the put all their energy on the scouts, but the parents are the ones that need to feel safe. Teach them your program. Also, you are in a new level of your troop. These familes joined because you have a pretty cool troop. However, the troop may take a little step back in performance for a little while until everyone gets their feet under them, so ask them for a little patience. Ask for their help also by asking questions instead of waiting and maybe get more frustrated. If little Johnny is frustrated but to shy to ask for help, then while Johnny isnt looking, talk to his older scout leader or adult so that we can find a way to work with him. Give us a chance before things get to frustrating. One other thing, I found that adding more then two brand new scouts to a patrol at once can really upset the patrol dynamics. Your patrols may be fine, but when we had enough new scouts that would add three or more, we did new scout patrols for six months then mixed them in existing patrols. I can add more detail if that becomes a consideration. But you know how much I hate NSPs. You will know how well you have done by the end of summer camp. That is when the scouts will not come back if they dont like the program. But I expect you guys will do very well. Hope this helps. We were where you are at many times. Barry

>>I'm not going to debate the circumstances of is this/is this not an appropriate trip. Regardless of what the National Council says, if the local SE says do one, then you do one. Period.

Great Friday All >>But if something happens on the trip (some serious injury) you could have serious liability problems if you didn't have one filled out.

Welcome to the forum. I will lead off by saying that there is a big difference between developing boys to lead the troop and letting boys run the troop. In one style, the adults take a very active role in making sure the scouts are learning and growing. In the other, the adults dont. The other important point that also needs to brought in is scouts leading the troop is not the primary purpose of the program. The primary purpose is to develop men who make ethical decision based from the values of the Scout Law and Oath. The BSA encourages scouts running the troop because when done correctly, it is a very efficient method of developing scouts toward the goal of making ethical decisions. Running a program as complicated as troop puts them in real life stressful situations, which gives them a lot of practice in making decisions based from the scout law, or not. To learn something you have to practice that thing. If the adults are doing their job right, they arent being proactive with the scouts, they are being reactive to their performacne. For example: The meeting should be packed full of activities for two hours. A good Scoutmaster is going to discuss with the SPL how well the meeting went, how well they accomplish the planned goals and what could they do differently to have a better meeting next week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I guess I'm not quite sure what the big deal is over 10 minutes. Most boy run PLCs struggle just to finish the meeting on time. But that being said, if the scouts are given the responsibility to start and finish the meeting on time, whatever that time is, then it will be a good experience for everyone. This kind of makes me wonder if I was over the line. I usually met with the SPL and the PLC seperatly after the meeting. We rarely went ten minutes total, but the SPL in our troop is the last to leave the building and he locks the doors. Never had any complaints. Barry

>>I now presume I mistook that, too.

The Jansport Scout is a great pack and one of my favorites for younger scouts. Depending on your sons size the bar should sit just above his head. The pack fits best on boys under 56. If your son is 52 or taller, then his hip belt needs to be moved down on the pack. If your son is shorter then the 56, then the bar shouldnt be a problem. It sit pretty far back. To adjust this pack, loosen the thumb screws on the bar the shoulder straps are attached. There is a thumb screw on each end of the bar. But be careful and make sure the screws are very loose before moving the bar because the screw attachments have a tight tolerance on the post. This is a very strong pack, but the reason it is strong is because of the tight tolerances of the attachments. When you move the bar up or down, move both ends at the same time. If you move only one end of the bar at a time, you will kink the attachment into the post. If that happens, it may require a light tapping from a small tool to un-kink the bar. With the bar loose and the shoulder straps loosened most of the way out, have your son put the pack on and tighten hip belt pretty tight. Then slide the bar up or down the post until the shoulder straps attachment points are about an inch above his shoulder. Tighten the thumb screws with your fingers and have your son pull the straps tight. The strap attachments points at the bar should still be about an inch above your sons shoulders. Now, put about 15 or 20 pounds (canned food in the pantry) of weight in the pack and have your son walk around. Is the top cross bar a problem? This is a really good pack for the younger scouts because it holds up very well to back packing abuse for its size and it is very adjustable for growing boys. I also like it because it loads from the back instead of the top. That makes it a lot easier for young scouts to find gear in the dark when the pack is sitting in a tent. Adjusting the pack is easier then most packs once you get the hang of it, especially on the trail. The reason I like that is as the pack settles on hips through the day hiking, the shoulder straps may need to be adjusted again. This pack and its big brother the Jansport Carson adjust very easy on the trail. I would say half the scouts on our Philmont crews use the Carson because of cost and quality. Our most active backpacking scouts tend to move on to better packs. Let us know how it goes. Im sure we can make it work. Barry

Call the scout office, ask for the DE (District Excutive) of your district. Get their cell number if they aren't in the office. That person will be excited to help you out. Barry

Good Tuesday All There are so many frame styles for packs. For most external frame packs, if the shoulder straps are not attached to the cross bar you are describing, then it is likely part of the frame and not intended to be adjustable. If that is the case, the hip belt is attached too high up on the frame and needs to be adjusted down. If the shoulder straps are attached to the cross bar behind his head, then that cross bar is too high on the frame and it needs to be lowered a lot. And likely the hip belt may need to be raised on the frame as well. Ya, that can all be confusing, but typically raising and lowering the hip belt on the frame is the major adjustment to how the frame fits the torso. Then the shoulder straps are adjusted to fit last. SSScout has good instructions for adjusting a typical external frame pack. If they dont seem to work for your son, then the pack may be the wrong size. Can you give us the name of the pack and your sons height and weight? Barry