Eagledad

This is one of those discussions that no one wins. I work in a scientific environment and I have to kind of laugh at the assumptions of how we get from point A to point B thru science. Or what we assume is science. Sometimes point B is only the opinion of the guy at the top of the tower. It isnt until many years later after the tower crumbles that the truth is really found. I see it everyday. I think we will see that in global warming. Anyway, as much as I know what goodness God brings into our personal lives, much less our culture, I can relate to LeRoys view when thinking about homosexuality. Many folks claim gays are born gay. Or even that God designed them that way. Yet there is no evidence that the biological body was designed to for homosexual relations at all. In fact it is just the opposite, the body is not designed for active long term gay relationships. Eventually something has to give. So, when I hear or read someone suggesting that folks are born gay, I have to assume that their belief is only held on, well faith. Barry

I understand that one of these boys has a reputation for this kind of stuff, but remember that they are 7 year old boys. It is not in their nature to stand or sit being calm and quit while waiting for the next activity. Staying quiet for just a few minutes is painful for a seven year old. Many times I've sat in camp toward the end of the day of day camp listening to inexperienced cub leaders yelling at the top of their lungs. I never had too much problem because if I saw the scouts loosing control, I changed the environment. Sometimes that meant skipping a day camp activity to go over and play in the stream of just run through the woods. Kim Near Seattle has some excellent suggestions. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The troop is new having formed only in October of last year so we don't have much of a cultural institution to draw upon.

>>There is also the rumor that he has gotten some girl pregnant. Not my most stellar Scout.

>>As to the JASM in question, I have an ASM who only shows up when work doesn't interfere with him also - same rules apply - glad to see you here! I just wish either of them would show up more often and more regularly.

>>Essentially the scouting program is a 13 year old program. When a boy turns 16, the program offers him little (except perhaps a leadership position), and they do not like to "hang around" the "little kids".

I did this several times. Back when our Council Webelos Summer camp left a lot to be desired, we did our own Webelos summer camps. The first thing I did was send a very long letter to the parents that while we will be camping as a Group, it was in no way condoned by the BSA, Council or District. The parents had to sign the letter understanding that the BSA was not responsible in anyway. Each family had to prove the ability to pay for any health issues. A parent was required for each scout, however we highly encouraged the whole family to join the fun, which most did. We also had a couple of boys who couldnt send a parent, but other familes took on the responsibility for each boy. We still did the Boy Scouts swimming test and had all the scouts got physicals. I included our unit commissioner in on everything. Everyone knew what was going on. In fact I told a few years later that it was my campouts that motivated Council to fix and improve the Council Webelos Summer Camp. Those were some great times for the families. I just attended a funeral for one of those parents last week and many of the pictures they showed of him were from those campouts. We just wanted a better program than the BSA provided at the time. We had a blast. It was a lot of work, but we had a blast. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The problem with not participating in popcorn sales (or FOS) is that it increases the burden on the units that do. It also forces the scouting professionals to focus on raising money instead of supporting their units.

>>It makes me feel dirty that I have to sell popcorn to get a patch! and on top of that the Cubmaster Knot requires your unit to get Quality Unit twice during your tenure.

>>My council removed fire buckets from summer camp because they didn't want untrained people fighting fires and because of the mosquito problem caused by standing water. Extinguishers are present in structures, but not in campsites.

"Ghost Chickens in the Sky" seems to be a fun favorite for all ages. We sang it from Cubs to Wood Badge campfires. Goes real well with a guitar. To the tune of Ghost Riders in the Sky. Lyrics: A chicken farmer went walking out one dark and fateful day He rested by the coop as he went on along his way When all at once a rotten egg hit him in the eye It was the sight he dreaded Ghost chickens in the sky! Bok bok bok BOK Bok bok BOK The ghost chickens in the sky The farmer had raised chickens since he was 24 A-working for the Colonel for thirty years or more Killing all those chickens and sending them to fry Now they want revenge... Ghost chickens in the sky. Bok... Their feet were black and shiny, their eyes were burning red They had no meat or feathers, these chickens all were dead They carried off the farmer and he died by the claw They cooked him extra crispy And ate him with cole slaw Bok... Barry Oh great! Now I will be singing this in my head all day long.

Pretty Good. Leave the snacks until the last. Have you thought about Smores? That is what the little brothers and sisters will remember most. Barry

Hi All >>On a side note, kids are not allowed to fiddle with the fire -- no sticks poking in and out of the campfire. Sticks that get poked in get added to the fire perminantly. This earns me some hairy eyeballs from the kids, and some of the Dads think I'm too up tight, but I don't really care. Trips to the ER ruin my camping experience.

>>Otherwise boys would only be in regular patrols for one year until they turned 12. Kind of silly, don't you think?

>>It is perfectly permissable to give the Scout a rope and ask him to tie a bowline. It is perfectly permissible to ask the Scout to demonstrate first aid for a choking victum. It is perfectly permissible to ask a Scout demonstrate how a compass works and to orient a map.

>>Using terms with different common meanings is just going to be confusing to the rest of us that use the Scoutmaster Handbook for guidance.

>>I won't comment on the workability of a single-activity "patrol" except to say you cannot find any guidance on how to work the concept in any BSA publication.

>>Again, that is how Venture Patrols operate! Boys stay in their regular mixed age patrol and the Venture Patrol exist only until the activity is done, then are re-orged/reformed.

>>Your description of your "temporary activity patrols" is basically Venture Patrols.

Hi Lisabob The answer to your first question is you will find that many of the scouts wont want to do all that stuff. One year when we had about 35 fourteen and older scouts, I polled them to find out how many actually wanted to do high adventure. Twelve! Of course some wanted to do some high adventure, but not enough to join a patrol just for those activities. If you encourage the scouts to create and plan the trips, I think you will find that they come up with enough trips to keep the crews managble. But, lets say you do get a large crew, divide them up into a couple of smaller groups with a leader for each group. Typically our Snow Skiing crews were the largest and we would divide them up. The leaders of the groups are basically someone that the main crew leader can contact for communication to the rest of the crew. Commitment really depends on what you want from it. We required scouts attend a minimum number of trainings so that they would know what they were getting into, and so we would know their limitations. But commitment for a snow ski trip was different than a commitment for a back packing trip. We usually tried to have enough training activities so if a scout couldn't make one, they still could make the minimum. We required a crew leader for every trip and that person was required to get planning done for both the trip and training. What that means is he either could do the planning and communication himself, or delegate the task to other scouts and adults and over see that they got done. We had some good leaders and some not so good. But the adults assigned to that activity knew how to motivate the scout if the other scouts didnt get the job done, which they usually did. 90% of the time the scouts did a great job of planning because most wanted to be there. And there is a maturity curve as well. Older scouts with planning experience took on a lot more of the task than younger scouts with lesser experience. I had one 17 year old SPL who also planned a 10 day backpacking trip in Montana. He wouldnt let anyone else help because he enjoyed it so much. I think the adults of that trip wished they had given a few tips as far as where to stop for breaks while driving, but that crew had a great time. He did good. One thing you will observe quickly by their attitude however are the scouts who dont really want to be there. Usually they are there because they are being pushed by parents or adult leaders or they just want to be part of the cool older guys. We learned that if a scouts wasnt excited about the trip, it was better to leave him at home because they are just as much of a struggle in the back county. I had the job of explaining that to the parents. You guys are going to have a great time. Barry

Hello Scoutingmama Our troop eventually went the direction of an adventure troop instead of Venture Patrols. For reasons that I wont get into here, Venture Patrols didnt work out well for us. Instead of waiting for your scouts to get old enough for the Venture Patrol, start encouraging Temporary Activity Patrols now. Those are patrols created for a specific activity like Philmont or Northern Tier or any other activity that is not planned by the PLC as a troop activity. Temporary Activity Patrols don't have an age or rank restriction unless the specific activity was limited by age like Philmont. The Patrol only exists until the activity has been completed. The scouts in the patrol dont leave their other patrol, and meet at other times outside the Troop Meeting. Ours typically met before the troop meeting or on weekends. Another advantage of a Temporary Activity Patrol is that it doesnt have to be High Adventure. One year we had three crews go to Philmont, another go to backpacking in Colorado and another go snow skiing. But we also had a patrol spend a weekend going to amusements parks to ride roller coasters. There were no age restrictions on any of those activities accept the Philmont trips. Weve also had a patrol go to Alaska and one created for the purpose of doing a service project at a nursing home. The boys created most of those patrols and led all of them. Our biggest challenge was getting enough adults. I encourage your scoutmaster to build a reputation of an adventure troop where all the scouts can choose between different activities. With a reputation like that, your troop will likely grow very fast. Barry

>>IMHO, the BOR has been crippled by decades of good intentions, and policy tweaking.

I second Bob White in that competition is instinctive for boys and you should use that to your advantage for good team building a Patrol bonding. Its in their boy nature; so learn how to use that positive energy for momentum toward their growth. You seem to be pretty successful in the patrol method part of the program, but struggling a little in the application of the Scout Oath and Law. That is OK, it is just a matter of practice for the adults and we all have to learn and grow to build a mature scout program. Remind the scouts that they are to serve the other scouts by using the scout law all the time. I find it interesting that you see a bit of the problem with the age based patrols. That is pretty perceptive. We experience the clickiness as well when the troop was more aged based and lot of it came from the leadership side. The troop had developed into a routine where the third year scouts inherited the PLC, whether they wanted it or not. The younger groups were dreading it, and the older groups were glad to move on. The ambitious leaders couldnt get in early or stay in once they were there. There werent any written rules about it, the clickiness just seem to pull it that way. There also wasnt the cohesiveness between the patrols groups that you seem to want as well. They got along OK, but they didn't have the pride of being part of a great troop. We migrated to mixed age patrols and all that changed almost instantly. Patrol pride remained, but it was healthier now. The patrol leaders felt support from the other patrol leaders, which resulted in better leadership skills and the youth taking on more the responsibility of scout discipline. The PLC was much stronger with ages that ranged from 13 to 17 years old. Scout growth accelerated faster than the adults could imagine. A troop is only as good as its older scouts because they are the role models. Keep up the good work. Barry

>>I think it could be because when the PL is there and doing his job well, there is not much responsibility attached to being the APL.

We eventually matured into a troop where the scouts pretty got to choose where they wanted to go. But that doesnt mean the adults are supposed to stand back and not have an opinion. I can write volumes on the benefits of mixed age patrols over same age patrols based from our experiences. So I'm very motivated to guide the program in a direction that is best for the scouts growth. As our troop matured, we learned what worked and what doesnt. However, if a NSP came to us and asked to be their own patrol, we would let it happen knowing the struggles they would contend. The way our troop worked was when the new scouts joined, we told them that after summer camp, they could do anything they wanted. We asked them to watch all the patrols so they could pick the one they wanted. Or they could start their own with our full support. And they could go to any patrol with as many friends as they wanted. With all those choices, we never one has a NSP that wanted to start their own patrol. And despite all the theories, we found that most boys are happy joining a patrol with just one other friend. We did have a few times when older scouts wanted to start a new patrol and started by recruiting new scouts. But the new scouts never wanted to go on their own. And why would they, they dont cook as well, tell as good stories or jokes and they like hanging around older scouts. That doesnt mean a NSP doesnt work. Given the right adults, NSPs will do fine. Barry