Eagledad

Seems like you poking the GSUSA in the eye to me. I'm tired of hypocrites using girls in the BSA as a prop to brag about girls in scouting without any comment of the existing Girl scouting organizing that does not promote a co-ed program. The BSA took a lot of heat for not being, well lets say progressive, but the GSUSA gets a pass. Comes off a pollical male bashing to me. You have your coed BSA, now go deride the GSUSA like you did to the BSA and push for the first 1000 Gold Award males. Barry

So, you believe the GSUSA Gold Award is not as worthy of an accomplishment as the Eagle. Irony is that I find all discussions of BSA girls showing off to the GSUSA as sexest as the intent of the bragging. Better to say nothing because there is no moral high road in such comments. Barry

I find that, in general, adults ignore what the youth want. Certainly the National doesn't listen to their members of any age. But, I think the biggest driver of integration will be the need for volunteers. Truth is that true patrol method troops require very few volunteers. But in this helicopter parenting culture, patrol method isn't being driven in the program. Barry

Because of the title, most folks give the CM and SM higher stature than the positions deserve. In the hierarchy of the units, the CM has a pretty simple job of taking care of the pack meetings and supporting the Den Leaders. But, supporting the Den Leaders is really dependent on the personality of the SM and committee. .A good committee can deal with them with the right leadership. Our pack was pretty organized, so support on my part basically dealt with recruiting and training leaders. Scouts love fun pack meetings, so I spent most of my time planning fun meetings. I find that dealing with trained Den Leaders is more often than not personality issues.. Our committee was pretty good at that. So, what are the committees expectations of you? I'm not sure I understand this. Is you son in a situation that requires you to be part of the adult staff? If not, let him go on his own. It's the right age and the right opportunity to give him more independence. Barry

This is a warped discussion with the book ends of helicopter parent protectionist to patriotic extremists. Thank goodness Matt brought reason into the discussion. i was talking to one of our past scouts who Eagled 10 years earlier. We ran into each other at Walmart and while he was holding his two kids. I don’t remember how the subject came up, but he told me that one of my Scoutmaster minutes made an impression on the kind of person he wanted to become. The story was about A few soldiers who played a joke on a new recruit by dropping a dummy grenade in the group. While group al leaped away pretending the grenade was live, the unknowing recruit jumped on it to save their lives. The group was so taken by the action, he received a medal even though it was peace time. The scout told me he wanted to have that kind of reactionary courage. It’s was important enough for him that wanted to tell me 10 years later. There are a lot of high moral takeaways a person can take from that story and stories like it. I can’t even imagine it being debated. I learned over the years as a scoutmaster that there are a few requirements to make an adult story interesting for a large group of scout age young men. Action, humorous, and short. A scoutmaster minute requires at least 2of those traits to hold the interest of teenage male mind. I got SM Minutes down to less than 2 minutes. And I found humor was just as memorable as action and adventure. i don’t know how to make an impression to the female mind with a SM minute, but I worry that trying to do it by sterilizing the attempts to make scouts think about morality will loose the scouts respect. It’s not the concern for subject matter that is appropriate for the age that worries me, it’s the lack of understanding for the scouts maturity as adults. Leaders seem to want to treat all the scouts as first year Webelos 9 year olds. My warning is that adult leaders reap what they sow. Barry

Media! There are several forum members here who used harsher words to describe the BSA that need to own up to the hypocrisy. Barry

Every single person has a different set of standards, especially in moral decisions. And most people don't want the weight of being the person who sets those standards (expectations) on the group because that is a huge responsibility with a huge risk of hypocrisy.. But, by default, the SM usually is who everyone expects to set minimum standards of behavior. whether the SM realizes it or not. Everyone should be responsible for their own actions, but the truth is the SM is by default responsible for everyone's actions in the program. The difference between inexperienced and experienced Scoutmasters is the techniques they use to motivate everyone to live up (or sometimes down) to the their expectations. There were nights when the weight of being the SM kept me awake all night. But, I have no regrets, just wonderful memories. I love this Scouting stuff. Barry

All units go through this. The definition of integrity in every unit is what the culture expects and practices. For your scouts to develop habits of making good decisions, they have to feel it's right when nobody is looking. The expectations has to be culture expectation. That doesn't happen overnight, cultures have to be formed. And it is the nature of humans to take the path of least resistance, so yes, human nature will seek the most lenient accountability. For both adults and youth. I think you are making a mistake taking scouts out of the process of accountability because you drew a line between youth and adults as if being an adult automatically makes us moral. If your scouts are ever going to behave like adults, they have to be treated and respected as adults. Role modeling expectations is the best form of teaching. The culture sets accountability, at all ages. As you stated, even the adults have different expectations of accountability. So, what's the difference whether the scouts or adults are lax. You have to figure out how to set accountability in the culture of the troop for everyone. Scouts must feel they are making the right choices. The moral choices. But, everyone in your program must also feel their choices a practical results. I imagine your scouts and adults don't see the practical effects of the skills they are being tested on, so they are trying, get away with minimum expectations. Your program expectations set the practical expectations. A small example that pops in my head was I found our scouts really struggled with lashings. We rarely use lashings in the woods, so we started doing camp gadget competitions and requiring a lashed flag pole at every outing. It helped, but the reality is lashings are not really required in a duct-tape bungy cord society. So, setting expectations can be a challenge. The expectation will be set from the lowest level of practical application. Cooking is another example of expectations. We started requiring cooking at every meal to force the scouts to practice the habits of cooking. This culture makes eating without cooking pretty easy. All that being said, attempting to raise expectations and integrity can easily cross the line of overbearing, condescending, or just plan boring. I learned that Scouting still has to be fun. Don't take away the fun trying to make scouts better decision makers. Add fun instead. I always took a box of Tootsie Pops to every campout. I ask the SPL to set it in middle of camp every morning with the conditions that each scout could have as many Tootsie Pops as they want provided they took only one at a time and that they put the wrappers and sticks in the trash. The SPL would remove the box if either of those conditions was broken. No lecture, just the consequence of making a bad decision. The box was removed within 15 minutes on the first campout. But, within three campouts, the boxed was usually emptied before being removed. .The culture changed to meet up with expectation because scouts developed better decision making habits. I also carried candied Fireballs in my pocket and gave one out when I saw a scout perform a good deed. At first a few scouts would do a silly acts of good deeds in front of me just to get a Fireball. But eventually the troop, as a whole, saw me give out the Fireballs for recognition for real acts of living the Scout Law, they saw the expectation of good decisions. The behaviors grew more mature. The reward of feeling good for making good decisions eventually dominated the reward of candy. I always carried a few fireballs, but the habits of making good decisions continued when I wasn't around. Which was 99% of the time. In your attempt to raise the level of your scouts quality to your expectation, search for fun passive ways to give the scouts opportunities to feel good with making good decisions. Those actions will turn into habits. I found that cultural changes happen a lot faster than you would think.. Barry

The ticket is the most educational part of WB because it's On the job training. As the WB ticket counselor (Troop Guide ASM), I would guide you to write the ticket toward getting experiences in your position. And, it's a lot more fun too. Barry

Great post. We used the first MB to guide scouts in Building confidence for contacting adults. We showed them how to write down on a piece of paper the scouts name, the troop he is with and the reason he was calling. He could practice his first call simply by reading the list. The list is really a crutch to help them through brain lock. We also contacted the parents to encourage them to cheer their son on if he needed. This was also a passive way of saying “let your son do this”. We originally thought a scout would need to do at least 3 MBs to gain the confidence for calling adults, but we found that only 1 or 2 was all most needed. As DuctTape points out, MBs can teach a lot of life skills beyond the skills of the badge. Barry

One of the ways we were able to track MBCs in our district was require them to come to our training once a year. The training was a half hour long. Now, things are more complicated and challenging, but I threw that out there for ideas. Barry

Stopping discussions with self-righteous declarations isn't going to contribute toward a working resolution. Don't you agree? Barry

There is a famous statement, I forget who said it, but it goes something like "debates and discussion are intended for the purpose of learning, not winning". I remember back when the BSA started requiring MB counselors to register; the explanation was the new policy was to protect the counselor as much as the scouts. So, I personally don't believe only protecting scouts from abuse ends the discussion. This is a complicated situation that forces the a look at the intention of the MB process as well of its benefits in the present day. The subject has to be discussed with some depth, and with some degree of reason. Barry

True, this is one method. Hmm, have you ever worked with boys? I see the detail orientated style of girls eating this up, but not the big picture boys. I think we just found a place where your extremism is more extreme than mine. But, I don't think you were a SM. The simplicity of your suggestion triples the resources for a scout to track his advancement. True, once he learns the management style, he will take that life skill with him. But, the chaos of scouts loosing track will force a lot of new procedures and adult interventions. If scouts can't keep track of their books, a few notes on used envelopes will really push the struggle. .I'm not saying don't try it, I'm just saying not me. Barry

This is worth discussing. When I was a scouting the 70's we had 3 fold advancement cards instead of using the handbooks. I imagine that changed in the 80s because loosing cards was so easy. But, as a SM, I collected more lost books than any other item except for hats. And, since more scouts quit in their first year of a troop than any other year, that is a lot of books there that are wasted. because the advancement part is partially signed off. I would be willing to go back to advancement cards again so the handbooks could be reused. Of course that doesn't help funding. Barry

Yes, me to. I was impressed how dad wanted his son to prove himself with us. He was a great scout. He resuscitated a baby found face down in a pool. Came back a hero from Afghanistan. I am honored to have been his Scoutmaster for the year he was with us. I wish we had him from Webelos. He would have been amazing in our program. Barry

Withholding? Please! Self righteous posturing comes off uncouth-like. Better to ask questions so as to better understand the Poster’s opinion. Equiping scouts to succeed while letting them fail is complicated. But I’m reminded of the father of a scout ready for his ECOH. He appeared at a meeting to discuss his son’s struggle to complete and submit his Eagle packet to the district advancement committee. He was lost and felt we werean’t cooperating. The 17 year old scout moved from another state and joined our troop 6 months earlier. He only had three MBs to finish when he joined. Once he finished the 3 badges, henmet with our Eagle adviser to complete his Eagle packet. Our advisor gave him the information she gives all the scouts ready to submit paperwork. However, he was clueless and was too shy to ask for more help. See, each scout in his other troop is given a schedule of advancement classes to Eagle when they join. The adults also keep all the scouts advancement records and important paperwork. TheY organize it all and submit it to the EBOR. All the scouts have to do In that troop,is wait for a call from their advisor telling them when to go to there EBOR. Our troop, on the other hand, doesn’t set any advancement agenda, we don’t hold or organize any advancement paperwork, prepare the Eagle packet, or contact the district EBOR. In fact, the scouts have to tell the SM the date of the EBOR. I explained to dad the differences between our programs and finished with “we believe the Eagle has the character of an adult, so expect him to handle his advancement as an adult”. The reason I remember saying that is because his dad smiled and nodded with agreement. We were certainly on the same page. I told him we would be certainly help give he and his son all the information they required for his son to make the contacts and submit the packet. We had a wonderful ECOH on a campout 3 months later. Now I admit the two troops are the extreme ends of the information spectrum, but the 100 other scouts in our troop never complained. From day one, they were expected to take responsibility for finding and using information and resources they needed for the goals of their scouting career. It’s not that we didn’t provide information, but like qwazse, we expected them to use the handbooks. That was how they grew in the program. From my experience, treat a scout as an adult with adult expectations, they will behave as adults. Barry

It's not that attention should be paid first to the struggling units, it's that those are bigger fires that need attention. I know that sounds the same, but typically struggling commission corps are the cause of struggling units and they in their unstructured mind only fix big problems. Units would likely see their UC in a well run corp. But, many folks feel they should see their UC every week, That is not the case. You contact the District commissior. Infact, all units should know the District commissioner. They are usually the one that handles the more challenging problems. UC's are usually more observers and advisors. But, in a well run District, the UC is reporting to the DC and they are working together on any guidance if needed. Quality units usually typically come from the vision of the District Commissioner. The DC is the heart of the District Program. The UC is supposed to be working at the guidance and permission of the District Commissioner. The DE is the council representative for the district. If the DE is doing the job correctly, they recruit a capable District commissioner. Recruiting UCs would take a lot of time and work for a DE. The District Chairmen runs the District committee and is not expected to recruit for each subcommittee member. Yes, but let's keep the hierarchy in context; the UC works for the DC. The DC is the member of the Key 3 and liaison for the council and district. The UC is the liaison to the DC. If noting else, the UC/DC are a filter for what a unit really needs directly from the Council level. As I said, I believe the quality of a District comes from the District Commissioner. A district could have a mediocre DE and District Chair, but still have a high quality program with a good DC. On the other hand, a good DE will recruit a good DC. I believe the bad commission reputation has come from a lacking to understand the value of the District Commissioner. As a result, most don't do a good job. So, the UCs are left to their own without general district guidance. Barry

Wow! What a mess. First off, you claim your running one of the best programs, but not getting any feedback. What feedback do you want? My experience with a struggling Commissioner corp program is that the resources are applied to units that need help. Do you need help? You state that the commissioner is the liaison of units to the Council. Commissioners are the liaison the DISTRCT. The DE is your liaison to the council, if you need it. Whether the DE does their job through commissioner corp or personally is up in the air and dependent of their character of how they work. What do you want to know about Council to continue to run your fine program? I do agree the commissioner Crop is there to help you build a quality program, but again, if you have a quality program, what else do you want? If your commissioner corp is lacking and struggling, and I have the "Been there done that T-Shirt", then help them by not taking recourses you don't need. Use them when you need them for situations that are beyond the experience of the unit volunteers. As for the missing DE, OK, so. But you really want to see is the District Commissioner. The DC has the most power to influence units. Sadly, most districts don't understand their power and they seem to fill the position with someone who doesn't have the skills. But, if you really want to invite District/Council to see your program, the DC is the person you want because that is the Key 3 connection to the outside world. Finally, I cheer your desire to become a commissioner, but let me point out that you can only be as good as your District Commissioner manager (DC). And you aren't painting a very pretty picture of your DC.. Every situation is different, but my suggestion is to get on the District Committee somewhere where you can do good work and earn your way to the District Commissioner position. I took that route, and I was offered the DC position. I was Sadly, the offer came 5 years after I retired from scouting and I wasn't ready to jump back in. I was flattered they remembered me and felt I was their person for the job, but I moved on with my life. To bad really, I believe the District Commissioner has the most power for influencing program in the units. I believe a unit should never see the DE if the commissioner corp is doing their job correctly. I'm always excited to read your grounded opinions of scouting. I believe some of your thoughts will be influenced with district level volunteering. I know it changed a lot of my idealism. I look forward to reading your future posts. Barry

This is an interesting idea. The only issue I could see is if the leader and expert have a difference of opinion for completion. Happens with scoutmasters all the time. I'm not sure there is an easy answer. When learned that parents envision Sandy Hook possibilities in their unit, there is no way they are going to let a stranger work independently with the scouts, even under your idea. I see virtual meetings becoming a real path for these things, but I don't believe the scouts will get the same benefits as they would from a personal experience with the MBC Barry

First class requirements. Barry

Like the cooking MB, I don’t believe camping should be a required MB for what a Scout should be an expert at doing anyway by age 14. A Eagle Scout should be as much of an expert in the woods as a first class scout. I feel the rank badges should require the minimum number of Scout skills to qualify the scout to be a confident outdoorsman. The Eagle should be more skilled in public speaking, group management and leadership. i like that first-aid qualification idea. We did that as a troop. Barry

Which minorities? My high school teacher son has been teaching in higher risk schools for over ten years and he says that resistance to higher education (or even K-12 education) is a cultural issue, not an opportunity issue. Barry

That was 20 years ago on an old computer that has crashed since. But I can kind of give an outline. I first discussed how scout growth is the result of scouts learning from their decisions. Lots and lots of decisions. Then I led into the problem that many adults aren't willing to let scouts make the harder lesson-learning-decisions because they are afraid of what a wrong decision will do. Adult Fears. Then we led into how to identify exactly what causes the fear because surprisingly adults don't think through that far when they say no. Let's use the five mile hike for example, adults afraid, the scouts will get lost, so teach them how to read maps, use compass, even use a GPS. Or, even let them do the hike around town in an area they feel safe and work their way to the woods after that. Then there is the fear of a scout getting hurt. OK, teach first aid to the point of feeling they can deal with that situation. Of course to many a fear of letting scouts alone on an activity seems obvious. But, one scoutmaster told me he wouldn't let his SPL run a PLC meeting until he was 14. Why 14, I don't know. His fear was the meeting would be disorganized and take all day to complete. So, we discussed how to guide the scout through a meeting without adult in the room. You know the SM never thought of teaching the SPL how to use and agenda because the SM never used one himself. The SMs fears were a result of his own bad habits. We we spent some time in the handbooks where they talk about agendas and running meetings. He was another example of how that one lesson should him how to get past other fears he dealing with in his program. The real point of the class is to first identify the fear, then figure out what needs to be done to feel to alleviate that fear. Simple really. But adults are so used to parent reaction of saying no, they haven't developed the habit of considering the idea and asking themselves why not? If you was your adults, you will see it a lot in many aspects of the program. That's all you are really trying to teach. The other point I was trying make is that the habit of young scouts making challenging decisions really does create growth and maturity. Believe it or not, most adults don't really trust that reasoning. I find it harder to get adults to consider that ideal than getting them to confront their fears. To many adults, what's the point of confronting a fear if the result doesn't change the outcome. This is why a good SM will spend half their time working with the adults. Adults have to grow more and faster just to keep up with scout growth. Does that help much? Barry

I actually created an adult leadership course on how to get past fears that restrict scouts from doing their activities and making decisions. Motivation to create the course come from a new troop I was asked to help. The adults were all new and they wouldn't even let their scouts (all first year scouts) lead a flag ceremony because they believed the scouts didn't have the maturity to recite the Pledge of Elegance, Law, or oath without messing up. The steps to get past our fears are simple really, identify the fear and then train the adults or scouts how to deal with the situation of the fear. In one class we used an example of a patrol doing a five mile hike without an adult. One participant got pretty aggravated and loud with the idea as we discussed the steps to alleviate the fears restricting the scouts from the hike.. But a couple years later he was a participant at a WB course I was staffing and he found me to say, that while he was skeptical, he tried the suggestions and they worked. Really, working past our fears is a process we all go through a lot. The real problem is that fear which stop us from trying to get past. Depending our our experiences of life, adults have different fears that hold them from letting the scouts mature and grow. We just have to be willing to try. Barry