Eagledad

>>How do you get all the info out and avoid announcements at Pack events?

Strange, I didn't realize I put OA down. So lets just say that if a program is run the MOS program, we would have twice the scouts. Our OA programs in this area struggle a lot. If we would learn from the MOS, "and I guess your OA program as well", it would be a boost for our scouting program. Barry

There isnt really a default role to follow. It really depends on the adults. Allow me to give a few facts I learned that might help you on this question First, let me set this basic premise: Meetings should no longer than an hour, and the goal should really be 50 minutes. The whole family is more likely to go watch big brother in short meetings because the sibling can be controlled for about 50 minutes. If the meetings are long, them typically one parent will stay home to baby sit. You want a Pack Meeting to be a family event. So with that in mind: 1. Add at least 5 minutes for every additional person who gets up in front of the group. 2. Scouts loose interest in 30 seconds if the subject is not fun. 3. It takes at least 1 minute to get the scouts focus back. 4. Announcements average 15 minutes. 5. Boys HATE announcements. 6. Pack meetings should be planned as 100% fun and entertainment. No boring business. If the Cubmaster is a good entertainer, then they should do as much as the meeting as possible to keep it going. If not, then the Cubmaster can take more of the circus announcer role and introduce entertaining adults to lead each part of the meeting. Understanding of course of adding 5 minutes to the meeting for each adult. One example is I eventually learned to be a pretty good entertainer, but was a lousy singer. So when it was time for a song, I brought up a fun song leader. After the song, that adult was gone and I was running the meeting again. Part of the reason you add at least 5 minutes for each additional person who gets up in front of the meeting is the amount of time it takes just to get on stage. As I said, you lost the boys after 30 seconds, so if it takes Wolf Den 3 a minute to set up for a skit, you have lost all the other scouts and are loosing control of the meeting. The Den 3 leader will likely need another minute just to quiet down the group so they can start their skit. The way to help that problem is give every person on the agenda a copy of the meeting agenda so they know when their time is in the meeting and ask them to be ready by the stage so they can walk right on. Your goal is no pauses between changes. That works well for adults who can start right into job like leading a song or telling a story or even annoucements. But, for those dens that need a minute to set up, that is when the Cubmaster or entertaining adult pulls out the joke book and keeps the boys focused. Or what ever, but dont allow the scouts to loose focus because it takes a least a minute to get that focus back. One last thing. If it is not fun for the scouts, take it out of the program. Which leads me to ANNOUNCEMENTS ARE NOT FUN. We created a Pack news letter purely for this reason. If you have to make an announcement, make it fun. Or, use an announcement to have fun. Example is the Cubmaster coming out on rollerblades to announce the annual roller skating party next month. Or a quick skit with Tim the Tool Man coming out with a chain saw and a pinewood derby car to talk about the Pinewood Derby. I hope this was a little clearer than mud. Only bring up adults that can keep the interest of the scouts. Do as few changes as possible to keep the meeting rolling. Keep the meeting short so families look forward to the meetings. Sorry this was long. Have a great scouting week. Barry

>>I'll simply say: - There's a reason the Missouri Councils are near the top of the National list on Eagles earned, religious awards earned, and youth camped per season. - There's a reason youth attend resident camp for 5-6 years running ... in addition to doing HA or staff work, plus their other interests.

I've not heard of any camps that function well with both styles of providing meals. Both methods are demanding in there own way, so providing both methods requires pretty good logistics. I'm sure there are good camps that do both, but it is probably best to find camps that just provide the one way or the other. I do agree that patrol cooking is one of the best activities for developing patrol method habits, especially for new programs where the adults are trying to get up to speed. I also agree that a troop that has good patrol method habits doesnt require patrol cooking for good patrol method performance. It does however require adults who know and understand patrol method to get the best performance. Barry

>>"Several of our scouts who witnessed the incident, didn't want to attend camp again." I often wonder how many scouts see our behavior here and don't want to do anything scouting related anymore as well...

>>Still, a scout is courteous and filling a space that he has no intention of actually using, isn't courteous to those scouts who would have liked to take the MB in question.

>>is it zero tolerance in your book)?

>>In 30+ years we have only had to use this once, when a scout simply refused to do any work whatsoever in his patrol.

>>It's when he signs up for MB and then we find out the last day that he didn't go to the "sessions" (we're not allowed to call them "classes") that we get upset.

There needs to be an unbiased third party involved. Barry

>>Adult-led units are a difficult animal to control and modern scouting does very little to rein them in. Maybe it's time to scrap adult-led methods in a program designed to promote boy-led leadership.

Hi Michael You ask a complicated question because every Scoutmaster uses the JASM differently. Neal and Beveaher gave excellent answers to your questions and I really cant add to Beavehers explanation. Since your SM wants you to hang with the adults, he is certainly trying to build a program where mature scouts can take on more mature responsibilities. Our JASMs were given the choice to hang with adults if they liked. They tried it and do pretty well, but I found that when 16 and 17 year olds needs some down time and they would rather do it with friends their age. When it comes to gas, girls and video games, teenagers just have a different perspective than adults. So while the JASMs hang with the adults and do adult responsibilities during the day, they tended to hang with their friends at night wear they can let their hair down a little. However, as I did with my scouts, I will still suggest to you to give a try and see how it works so both you and your scoutmaster can learn from the experience. Your SM seems like a decent fellow and we are all learning at this game. You sound a little frustrated with your SM at the moment, but you need to understand his job. He is responsible for you and all the other scouts growing up as men of character as well as bringing you safely home from each outing. I rarely slept the week before a campout with all that weighing on my mind. It is not and easy job giving boys responsibilities were they might screw up. What if a patrol forgets their food for the campout. It easy to just say let them figure it out and learn from the lesson. But as a father and the responsible adult for sons of all the fathers and mothers in the troop, letting the boys starve is a difficult choice. I know, I made it many times. Of course they dont starve and they figure things out, but how do you know until you let it happen. So there is a huge learning curve to the Scoutmaster gig. A mature 16 year old JASM with great ideas just might be the blessing he needs to make his learning a little easier. Be bold and let him know how it is going. Be aggressive and suggest a few things that might give ideas to improving the program. Be humble and remember that nobody is perfect and that we all learn from our mistakes. Remember your place and set an example by living the scout law and oath. I have worked with a lot of JASMs and ASMs from ages 15 to 25 in scouting. In many cases these folks were better at scouting than most of the adults. They knew well all the scout skills and leadership skills required for a safe campout and fun Troop meeting. But I pointed out to them that their biggest challenge as a JASM or ASM was just living an example of the scout law and oath. Later on they would come back to me and agree. You are THE role model for all the scouts. How you act and what you say is giving them permission to how they can act and what they can say. If you do a good job just at that, you will be well ahead many adults, and you will then understand why leading boys is so hard. Seems like great opportunities for you and your troops future. I look forward to reading how it goes. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Home made GORP is the best. Barry

>>Still have no idea why I would have been issued two.

Well here a few random thoughts: >>I'm torn as to what is really best for the youth.>If I were to accept the SM position I would likely step down as a UC.>I belive that in a Troop the CC is almost as important as the SM>If I change positions I should do so before I answer the 20 questions.>The current SM and myself have worked to change the troop in the past year from adult led to youth led, which was one of my main concerns when I accepted the CC position.

Our troop planned their own triathlons where the troop would hike, bike and canoe in one outing, but I have not heard of an organized version. That would be really cool. Ideally the crew changes camp every day by hiking, biking or canoeing to and from camp. Depending on the requirements like what you can carry, biking could be the hardest for a crew if they have to carry all the gear. But, a following crew of cars can solve that problem. Takes some long term planning to get all the gear and get prepared for using it. It was a perfect program for a troop because it required learning so many skills and learning a lot about setting up the equipment. An organized outside program would help that a lot. Sounds like a great trip, please keep us in formed how it works. Barry

>>Aside from the book keeping issues that might be involved, these are the two arguments I'm anticipating. (And if you do get these, how do you combat them?)

Sounds to me like you are already doing a pretty good job getting ready. Since you have knee problems, I would suggest you look at hiking poles to go along with your knee brace. Hiking poles look very much like ski poles and are used about the same way. They are made of light weight material so they dont add a lot of weight to your load. Dont worry that you will look nerdy, there are usually a few hikers using them in most groups at Philmont. When used correctly, hiking poles can take as much as 80% of the stress off your knees, especially hiking up and down inclines. Im told by my friends who have bad knees that going down hill is murder and that the hiking poles make a night and day difference as far as taking impact pressure off the knees. Do some research to make sure you learn the best technique for using hiking poles. Wear the knee brace and boots with good ankle support. Do a few miles at home with all this gear including a backpack until you get used to it. Philmont isnt really that strenuous as mountain hiking goes. Usually the altitude is the main problem. The best way to prepare for that is aerobic exercise. If you cant run, use the cross trainers. But even for the most fit, some times it is the mental toughness that struggles the most. Have a wonderful trip. Barry

This might be a balancing experience for your troop. I know that one of the spring boards that gave our troop a huge jump in numbers was our adventurous outdoor program, much the same as yours. New families always knew what they were getting in to when they joined and they were either financially willing or prepared to work hard on fundraisers. I cant ever recall anyone telling us they didnt join our troop because of cost. I can also say as things got more expensive, we started going every third year to council camp. That was about as much as we could stand. Im betting your troop will pull things in just a bit, but your new scout numbers will remain consistent. Im not really in favor of subsidizing new scouts as that could lead to other issues. Providing fundraising opportunities was usually enough for most of our scouts. We did have funds for hardship families and used them often. If you allow Webelos to earn money in funraisers, be prepared and state up front what will happen in case they don't join your troop. Barry

>>So, the good kid, in order to gain the attention he feels he deserves from his parents, strikes his sister whos perpetrated no wrong against him. Hmmm. If youre trying to convince me that this kid is inherently good, this example doesnt do it.

Rooster>>I think when a three year old smacks his younger sister because she has the audacity to pick up one of his toys; it has nothing to do with survival. Its just a kid acting out and being selfish.>Explain a >50% divorce rate and the amount of child abuse thats reported here in the U.S. and elsewhere. What happened to all those great kids did they do through another developmental stage?>Yah, Rooster, Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction, not a documentary. Yeh might as well cite Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde to justify believin' adults secretly turn into hairy monsters at night.

>>eventually, it's not about development...it's just about ourselves. My vote - we're inherently bad (i.e. prone to please ourselves...prone to sin).

So many questions. The best answer for these questions is Religion has stayed pretty consistent over time. Interpretations vary some through time but usually seem to get back to the same basic alignment, which is why history repeats itself. Have a great day. Barry

>>Eagledad, which religions have been consistent since their inception in moral teachings about slavery and homosexuality?