Eagledad

Ghost Chickens in the sky sung to the tune of Ghost Riders in the Sky. Lyrics: A chicken farmer went walking out one dark and fateful day He rested by the coop as he went on along his way When all at once a rotten egg hit him in the eye It was the sight he dreaded Ghost chickens in the sky! Bok bok bok BOK Bok bok BOK The ghost chickens in the sky The farmer had raised chickens since he was 24 A-working for the Colonel for thirty years or more Killing all those chickens and sending them to fry Now they want revenge... Ghost chickens in the sky. Bok... Their feet were black and shiny, their eyes were burning red They had no meat or feathers, these chickens all were dead They carried off the farmer and he died by the claw They cooked him extra crispy And ate him with cole slaw Bok... P.S. I learned pretty fast that if the song doesn't have some kind of guts or isn't loud or doesn't let the boys jump up and down, it is no fun in a pack meeting. Barry

I also agree with OGE and anyone else who wears knots for whatever reason. Knots are part of scouting and part of the uniform, so wear them with pride. That being said, I don't wear knots. I have abnormal fear of letting such things go to my head, so I leave temptation in my dresser drawers. Since I'm not as active with scouting right now, I am thinking of mounting them in a frame before I loose them. I also don't like to wear my WB Beads, but will do so at WB events so as not to stick out and become a conversation piece. I know it is silly and I agree. We all have our querks I guess. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>But we are stuck on how to get it out of the rut ... our troop meetings are either adult planned, or choas.

Great suggestions. Let me suggest Get And Use The Patrol Leaders Handbook And SPL Handbook. Those two books provide very simple guidelines for planning and agendas and should be used by both the adults and scouts. That way when a question or problem comes up, the SPL and SM sit down together, pull out their Handbooks and work for a solution. As your group gets better and more experienced, encourage them to improve what they have learned, but start very simple. We also taught the Who, what,where, when... and it works well once the system has developed. But right off the bat, it is a lot of stuff and needs to be broken up into smaller bites. I personally think agendas and plans are the primary reason most troops struggle with boy run. I found that 90% of the scouts that participated in our JLTC (todays NYLC) had never heard of an agenda. I personally think the agenda is the first thing a Patrol Leader and SPL need to learn to write and use. Our JLTC participants wrote a minimum of 20 meeting, planning and activity agendas during the week long course. But dont make it hard, the SPL and PL Handbook has it all. Scouts and adults should refer to them. The SM should develop the expectation that the SPL has with him and agenda or plan for every activity, meeting and campout. The SM needs only to ask to see it so he can see what is going to happen the rest of the day. He is not doing the planning, so he only needs to look at the agenda to know what the rest of the day looks like. Not a check on the SPL, but an education of what the troop is doing. It will take some time before this becomes routine. I really like the idea of adding this to your training. It will start slow at first, but once the scout experiences the value of writing and using an agenda or plan, they will lock on to it. Barry

>>then the unit has training issues. They do not know or understand the roles of the various levels of program, and they need more training...the council can help with that.

>>My question is, should a person who chooses not to do so, be made to feel like they are some sort of deadbeat because they didn't repay their "debt" to Scouting?

>>The basic problem is that most kids don't want to be in Scouting. They stick it through Cub Scouts because their parents want them to be there. In Boy Scouts . . . they just don't want to be there. It isn't cool. No video games.

Well there are a couple assumptions that aren't quite correct. The huge majority of scouts in troops did come from the Cubs. And, the drop out rate of first year scouts was about the same as it is now. The reason for the higher numbers back then was a successful advertising program developing a culture that second grade boys automatically join Cub Scouts. An increase of Cubs led to the increase of troops. In my humble opinion, (and I know it is a reach, but I believe it), adding the Tiger program took a huge toll on the pack recruitment over the years. First grade boys are too young for this program and problems of Tigers has taken away the culture of second grade boys automatically joining scouts. Boys today try it in first grade and we loose a huge chunk of them even before they get to second grade. Barry

Really depends on the maturity of the Patrol. I found the mature patrols elect older scouts. But I was also surprise to see that patrols also look at bringing up younger scouts to get experience. Im sure that idea bleeds down from the servant led PLC culture, but sometimes they get a little younger than I would have liked. Still, the older scouts were purposely good mentors. Our average patrol leader age in mixed age patrol was 14, I would have liked it a little older. But our program kept the older scouts pretty busy. I cant remember a problem with older scouts not wanting to be led by younger scouts. I think it was because our Patrol leaders really do lead, so scouts that show a willingness to take on the duties are respected, and also because the older scouts see themselves as mentors. Most of our pains came in same age patrols because friends of the same age tend to not want to take orders from friends. Barry

>>Young Eagles before, older Eagles now. Change in program? Good or bad?

>>The sm has never liked this kid and has never hidden that fact.

This is a really cool idea. I remember wearing my dads Scout Hat from 1940 and the adults really liked that. I wore my dads shirts as well and GW is right, they were uncomfortable compared even with the shirts in the 70s. I don't know how far you can push it because the limitation on the supply. We once saw a whole troop wear the campiagn hats. They were a big troop, so it look really sharp. Everything that troop did looked sharp. You could tell they took a lot of pride in their program. Our troop check into the idea but somehow it didn't go. I wished it had. I think this is a fantastic idea and hope you can work out a way for all the scouts to get in to it some way or another. Barry

It really depends on the program and even on the personalities of the scouts. We didn't seem to have scouts Eagle in groups, but we had several scouts who waited almost a year so they could have the COH together, my son included. I can see this happenging with new troops because adults new to scouting tend to follow the advancement part of the program pretty close until they start to learn and understand the other seven methods because advancement is the easiest to do when you don't really know what you are doing. That first group of Webelos will likely Eagle pretty close to each other. Barry

Personally I dont see this as more adult led dynamics moving into the boys program. In fact, I almost think it was created to prevent that. But I do feel that it wont help the boy run dynamics because it keeps the parents just a little to close. Our troop was rather large and when we saw the adults closing in on the boys just to be part of the program, we assigned a couple of JASMs to lead the new adult patrol. The JASMs would pull the adults together at all the troop meetings and campouts to brief them on the PLC meeting (we have one every week) and organize the adults for the next campout or activity. The objective from the SM was to keep the program boy run and to help the adults stay in a boy run frame of mind. It worked pretty well. It was a good experience for both the JASMs and the adults. What I think is wrong with the Parent Coordinator idea is that it takes the SM away from the responsibility of personally guiding the adults and continually guiding them on the program philosophy. I found that adults work best in boy run programs when the SM continually teaches and guides adults to how the program works. I see a few up and coming Scoutmasters developing that technique here on the Scouter forums. Everyone will say that the Scoutmaster should spend all their time with the boys. In reality the boys do just fine when the adults get out of the way. I have said many times here that I learned that 50% of the scoutmasters time should be teaching and guiding the adults on the boy run program. It keeps the adults out of the way of the boys and it solidifies the program philosophy into the whole of the troop, not just the ASM circle. But, our culture is changing faster than I can keep up. I wouldnt be surprised if the scouts start doing their PLC meetings with text messaging. Barry

>>These kinds of decisions, and changes to policy, aren't generally made in a vacuum or on a whim.

>>If the Scoutmaster is being "secretive" you can expect many more situations like this one. Open and honest communication is one of the most necessary skills of a useful leader.

>>No deaths I know of, nor has the ceremony been reduced to reading names from a list.

Sounds like a great trip. The Brazos river in central Texas is the closest river I can think of that will fit your needs. I can't help you with an outfitter, but I know there are several on the river. Barry

>>If that were the case, PeteM, the entire ordeal would have been changed.

This was an honor we save for the Webelos IIs in our pack. They are the leaders and instructors for all the other ages in pack meetings, but it is their thing for special events. Barry

First of all, how do you define hazing to the scouts? I think that is a very important question and one that should be answered in one sentence so the scouts have a clear understanding of it. One of the problems I see with adults today is they don't really understand a good definition and end up classifying just about any act that offends them under hazing. I once saw a leader jump on the camp staff for singing happy birthday to a scout that wasn't even in her unit. She didn't know the scout and didn't even ask him how he felt about being sung to, she just called it hazing. Why, because to her being singled out in anything is hazing. We define hazing for our scouts as: when a person is forced to participate in something they dont want to participate in. Under that definition, there isnt a list of actions that are classified as hazing; it is instead the person feelings toward your actions that are taken into account. The BSA suggests that holding a Cub Scout up-side-down while getting his Bobcat is hazing. Yet, I have never met a boy who didn't want to receive his badge in that manner. Personally I think the BSA has only added to the confusion of hazing. It would have been much less controversial and more reasonable to just state that holding a boy up-side-down is not permitted because the risks of permanent physical harm to the Scout. We want scouts to practice serving others by using the scout law and oath and not by someone elses list of things they can and cannot do. There is no list of hazing in the scout law, just the promise to serve others by being friendly, courteous and kind. If the person doesnt feel you are being friendly, courteous and kind, then the scout must consider their actions toward that person and stop, whatever that action is. Practice a definition that doesnt define specific actions, but instead reacting to the feelings of the other person. Teach scouts to take ownership of the well being of others. Encourage them to practice being servants. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All The tiger program is all about the parent. To have a successful program, you need to cater to their needs. The packs that have the hardest times with tigers are typically the ones that put the most demands on the parents. More meetings means more demands. I know that we say it is all about the boys, and it is. But Tigers requires the parents and a lot of adult volunteer time. If the program is too demanding, the parents will not come. If the parents dont come, the boys cant come. However, the good news is that if you have the family in the program for the first year, you will have them at least through bears. Ignoring the tiger year, it is very important to understand that we lose more Cub Scouts do to leader burn out than any other reason. The Cub program is five long years and on average you will only get at best 2.5 years from your volunteers. We didnt ask much of our Tiger parents because we were saving their time for the last four years. I know, that still leaves the WEbelos years and that is another discussion. But, we viewed Tigers as more of sit back, relax, and watch and learn the program. We asked for only two outings month to keep the demands lower. One was a fun go and set it intended to get the group to bond. The other was anything they wanted, but typically it was the pack meeting. Of course they came to all the fun stuff like pinewood derby and roller skating parties. We asked each parent to do the calling of their group for one month so that they could get to know the other parents. We also had a Tiger coach to watch the dens making sure they were doing OK and to keep information flowing in both directions between the pack and the tiger families. As a result of our program, we went from 30 to 50% cross over to wolves to 95%. Our pack had to share the recruiting from the same school, which meant we started with equal number of Tigers each year. So we got to watch a side by side comparison of two different approaches with the tigers. The other pack had meetings every week. They were happy crossing over only 40% of their Tigers. Listen to the Tiger parents. They are the ones you have to satisfy. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I took one on all my campouts and treks except Philmont. It was the first thing I put up after we set up camp on our treks. It sets up fast enough to use during a long break on a hike or canoe trip if you want to take a quick nap. Sometime just getting off the ground is a relief. They are very comfortable and usually the envy of the rest of the group. The tarp works great in rain and anything else that falls out of tree. I didn't sleep in it at night where we had heavy mosquitoes. It was kind of the adult gettaway place at summer camp for naps and reading books, but I even let curious scouts lay in it. Look for survival hammocks that are made of fish netting. Very strong and very light. I think around $30. Rolls up to about the size of a softball. Try it to see if you like it. Barry

OK, here is one way I would consider approaching your problem. Find all the documentation in the BSA Handbooks that refers to how the BSA recommends the SM and troop should perform in this situation. Then, as the SM, call an adult meeting and teach everyone how the BSA suggest the SM perform in this area of the program by reading out of the SM Handbook and whatever else you need to reference . Once youve finished reading the text, explain to the group your concerns and the problems you have seen. At that point, tell everyone that the troop adults as a whole will go through SM Specific training on a date you just set with the District. And then after the training, you will hold another meeting to discuss how the troop should perform SM Conferences. I would invite the Unit Commissioner, the District Commissioner, the District Training Chairman and the District Executive so that you have some weight behind you. They are trained to stay quiet in these things, but its hard for folks to turn you down when they are there. I wouldnt allow a discussion on the subject; instead explain that if the troop is going to be so diverse from the BSA program, then they can at least go through this training together. Once they get trained, then they can express their view on the subject. Program Quality is number one with you and you feel training as a group is important. Have a training date ready with the District Training Chairman so that you are basically announcing the date and anyone who wants to have input on the subject needs to go through this training. This is going to take some courage on your part, but as BW said, you have a much bigger problem and you need to find a wedge to get your SM authority started into the long standing traditions of you troop. At 18 months, you have enough time to express concern. Dont give the group options, announce to all the adults in the troop that you are going to have a SM meeting for all the adults. And start a tradition of these meeting twice a year. Hope that helps. I know this is frustrating. You are in a tough position and its going to require to pull from parts of you that you did know you had. Oh, and remind them that you love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>This sounds like a mid-trek Philmont moment. Scouts are tired, irritable and some strange dynamics start happening.