Eagledad

This is one of my favorite ceremonies. I've done it so many times that our pack asked me to find something new because it was getting boring. It has to be practiced so that you know what to expect and how to have everything placed. I had two adults sitting close by with extinguishers. I'll bet I've lite a couple hundred necherchiefs on fire and never had one damaged. Barry

>>I have always admired and respected McCain. I thought he had better sense than this though.

I disagree Gern, McCain was hitting Obama's experience this week even when he knew who is VP was going to be. I don't think he is worried about it. Who knows, maybe he sees it as an opportunity to keep hitting her experience, which is quite good really. She reported Republican corruption, which got her elected and is one of John's favorite topics.

>>This woman is supposed to be the icon of conservative, family values eh? Didn't she just have a child in April who has Down's Syndrome?

>>It may also because some people know that trying to convince others to vote for a particular candidate is usually a pointless exercise in an Internet forum, especially one that is not primarily devoted to politics.

>>So, Eagledad, unless you have anything more official that is to the contrary, I will accept your apology in advance.

>>OK so sure, 72 is the new 52 and blah blah.

>>Eagledad, why do you have to be so nasty about it?>I'm saddened by it, but I guess times have changed. I remember when a scout leader would have felt proud to see a Scout Uniform at such events. Now some feel shame. I will never understand it, but I will file it in my "Scouting is a great program until the adults get involved", folder.

>>This is assuming I am correct on the regulations, which I have not looked up.

>>And I still want to know why those guys were on stage at a political rally wearing their Boy Scout uniforms! Isn't there a specific rule against that?

The decision wasn't pandering for the liberal womens votes, it was an effort for the conservatives who are not energized by McCain. As for her experience, well I guess three years in the Senate might trump that. Barry

I think this situation became very complicated by the reaction of the father. There is something strange about all to me. So with only the information provided to us, this is where I ask the would scout if he really thinks he is ready to be an Eagle. I have done this many times, I first ask the scout to define the kind of person worthy of this position (in this case the Eagle) and we discuss that. Then I ask him if he is that person and up to role modeling that person. Then I leave it there for the scout to mill over. 99% if the time the scout makes the right decision and in most cases, they set a plan to reach the goal. It doesnt really matter if we think these actions are worthy of an Eagle Scout. It only matters what the Scout thinks because he has to live up to that expectation the rest of his life. If he is not ready, we just can't tell him that, he has to believe it himself. Otherwise he won't feel motivated to change and develop himself toward that stature. Barry

>>"But god or gods or goddesses are incorruptible and their word is eternal." This is actually a fairly recent notion. Throughout history, most gods that people have worshipped have been selfish, cruel, and deceitful. (Just like people, go figure...)

>>and if people decide to take the country in that direction I want them to embrace it AND the outcomes explicitly.

>>Without a basis (rules or guidelines) there is nothing to base ethical decisions on. How would you know if something is ethical if you have no basis?

When time washes away the slanted emotional gobbledygook of politics, history will record Bush as a good president. From a world view point, there is more stability in the Middle East than before 2000 and the Iraq war will be viewed as a major catalyst toward the peace with Israel. Since 9/11, there have been 40% fewer world wide terrorist attacks and zero attacks on U.S. property. The economy didnt take a dump after the national disasters of 9/11 or Katrina as was predicted and the unemployment remained stable considering those events. Bush will also get quiet credit for the stability in the Korean peninsula. Our grandkids will read these as historic accomplishments. Barry

Lisabob is right, offically it is "non-member". But I would like to see what the computer does. Barry

>>I don't know where to go from here. Dad doesn't understand what's appropriate and what's not. Now I see where the son gets it.

>>Debating this issue based on safety is a red herring. It is not a safety issue and no amount of safety will alter the policy.

I have had to work with and cooperated with police because of my experience of working with such boys who gave threats at the Virginia Tech level. Real problem kids don't just pop out of nowhere. Just like the Virginia Tech shooter, boys like that have a track record. Typically the SM is very acquainted with these boys and their past, which is why police like to work with them. I would have expected gcook to mention a past if the boy had one. A Scoutmaster Conference is in order and that is about it unless the boys response warrants something more. I would also talk with the parents, but I usually talk with the parents anyways about all my Scoutmaster confrences with their sons. Barry

>>First of all, NO, you are NOT overreacting. This is how Columbine and Virginia Tech started.

Yes, you are right BW, it is discrimination. Still, Ga is basing his discriminating decision from a series of experiences. Fair or not, the culture is the problem because it develops the habits that lead us to make our educated decisions. Sometimes the decision is wrong, but more often than not it is right. Barry

>>Thats a bit predjudiced isn't it Ga?

Don't get stuck in the mud Bob, I got that statistic from a leadership course a long time ago and they used the words "World Poplation". Actually we were taught 3.5%, I shouldn't have rounded off. After my life experience, I agree with it. Even with scouts, you see it in those boys who at age 11 have the gift. My youngest SPL at age 13 had such a gift. Also, it really doesn't matter what age, experience or training folks have, the statistic represents those folks who have the natural ability to sway people to follow. That doesn't mean they lead in the right direction and even have good leadership skills. It only means they have that something about them that when they talk, people listen and willingly follow. Most politicians fit in that group. Don't make a big deal about it, it has nothing to do with folks who have learned and developed the leadership skills to manage groups to success. I've always said that scouting was for developing the other 96% into great leaders. Thanks for the clarification Ga, and again thanks for presenting your observation. Actually what you presented is wisdom derived from your experience. I think it goes a long way torward how you develop adults into better leaders. It is these kinds of things that help other folks understand better the situations they are in, and how they progress beyound it. Barry

Ive told this before and it has been awhile, so the numbers may be a little off, but I used to poll troop level folks at Wood Badge. I found about 20% (give or take) of adults owned a Scoutmaster Handbook, 5% had read half of it and about 2% had read the whole thing. These were adults who were taking Wood Badge, most of whom where not entry level scouters. Im impressed with your observation GAHillbilly. I agree with your observations, but I think every new adult leader, no matter their experience starts off at concept three and works their way through concept two as they get experience and training. I do agree that some folks kind of hang in concept three, but most will move down to a large degree to concept two. There are several reasons why you have folks that hang around three, lack of training, arrogance, ignorance, or lack of self esteem. From my observations, the best boy run Scoutmasters are the ones who moved on to Concept One. While the BSA provides enough literature and guidance for an adult to develop their program into a good boy run program, they dont do a good job of developing the philosophical mindset that adults need for progressing to a mature boy run program. Badon Powell and even they early BSA developers did a much better job of painting the big picture of scouting from a philosophical point of view. As an example, the simple phrase we all seem to hang on "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" came from that generation. What you find is those adults who wanted to go the extra distance of boy run found themselves researching the literature of scoutings founders because there isnt much literature (if any) like that provided today. There is only a very small group of folks who spent much time trying to get to your first concept. But those scouters usually stick out of the crowd as well as their programs. Many of those adults stand out here on this forum. I think this is a very good subject if we can stick with how to get folks from Concept Three to Concept Two. But I think we must start from the point that most scouters are not like your example of your guy who thinks he knows it all. Of course there are those kind of folks, but most folks are trying to just move forward from what they already know. They may appear to be arrogant, but I find they are very willing to listen when someone they trust stands up to guide folks. Remember, less than 5% of the population are natural leaders, so the rest will follow when given the choice. When a leader stands up, the rest will follow. The problem you present is when a leader happens to be the guy in your example. So how do we handle folks like that? By the way, I find there are a lot of women that fit in that description as well. We once had a very successful Troop in our district lead by such an adult. It was a well oiled merit badge mill of almost 200 scouts. Everyone knew it, but what are you going to say to such a successful person? Typically adults from that troop were at least half of my Scoutmaster Specific course. A group of those adults once approached me at a council event and explained that they wanted to turn the troop more to what I had trained, but there was no way they could stand up to the very strong minded SM. And they were right. This SM was the kind of person that not only knew how to run such program, but he also knew how to get folks to donate six digit money each year to the council. Ive gone long, but I think what you are asking is how do we confront those small group of adults in the third group who have the kind of personality to drive a program the wrong direction. Barry