Eagledad

>> It really irks me, when fellow Scouters tell others, that they are "benefiting the entire BSA".... I did not like the donations being handed to us at all; but I have finally given in,

I remember asking the District to change its Scouting for Food policy of delivering food bags to each house door with a message to leave the bag on the porch for a scout to pick up the following Saturday. The scout never got to meet or speak to the persons donating the food during this whole process. I agree with firekat, we can't complain about a struggling program when the community doesn't know we exist. Barry

>>But I do think opprotunities should be provided for them,

>>And that's part of the problem. We have a clear cut transition, bridging, from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. But NOTHING for Boy Scouts bridge to Venturing. Or from Boy Scouts/Venturing to adult leadership.

>> believe Eagledad has hit it somewhat on the head. You do have a lot of leaders who do not allow the scouts to develope into leaders. I do disagree with the women statement as I've seen men do the same things.

>> I personally think the mistake we made is shiftin' the Boy Scoutin' program down into little kid land, not shiftin' it up. Though that may now be irreversible.

>>My thought is to set a plan for these boys before any advancement can be signed off, say 3 months (under the auspices of "scout spirit"). I am, however, at a loss of how to quantify improvement in this area.

>>Like as not, if yeh start talking about "bullying" the natural kid reaction will be to roll their eyes and assume that this is just "some adult thing." Real bullying to boys means physical stuff.

Ask your DE (District Executive) or District Commissioner for help finding a pack that will loan you their track. Set a date so you dont use the track on the same day as the other pack. I advice a Friday night and make it a family night. Have hot dogs, chips, and sodas for sale for one price so the families can eat dinner there, it adds more fun for everyone and your pack can make a few bucks. If the other pack is using the track on a Saturday morning after, they would love for you to leave it set up. Give out the cars all together so each scout has the same kit and require taht they use only the materials in the kits. Have a car building day a couple weeks before the derby so the boys whose parents cant help them will have an opportunity for help from a handy dad with some tools to help them work safely. Many dads tell me that helping the boys is the best part for them. Have a final weigh-in and check in the night before the race so your crew isnt rushing to get all the cars checked in before race time. There will always be a couple cars that need some help. And make be sure to help the boys get their cars close to weight either by adding or taking some weight off. That means have some tools and materials ready. Again, some boys come in totally clueless. Your job will be to help them get the cars at least race ready. Have some way of keeping the cars together safely until the race. We always set up chairs on both sides of the track so everyone can watch, but I leave a clear space next to the track where the scouts can sit right next to the track. It is very exciting for them and only requires an occasional caution to not be tempted to touch the track or cars. Now you need to understand that these kinds of competitions bring out the worst in some folks (dads), but Im not one to add a bunch of rules designed to keep them at bay. Instead I explain at the pack meetings that this is a family event. But this is also scouting and a perfect opportunity for the boys to learn the satisfaction of watching their creativity race with their friends. So the parents need to participate without taking over. Of course the younger the scouts, the more the parents might need to help. This should be a good start, Im other will be excited to add their wisdom. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Lots of good stuff here. I wanted to support a couple things mentioned. First, the parents have got to know their sons behavior in your troop. My scouts learned quickly that whether the news was good or bad, the parents got a report of their behavior after outings. It wasn't hard for me, I enjoy bragging to parents about their sons after outings. Once in a while the news wasn't so good. While I think it is our job to judge behavior (good or bad), we are not expected to implement change ourselves. The parents are a part of your team and usually they do a really good job without you having to get pointed. I never asked a single family to leave the troop, but I did ask a few to choose helping their son change his behavior, or look for another troop. A few choose to leave. I only had trouble with one parent and he was an ASM in the troop. We didn't have a good relationship, so I picked someone he trusted to explain the problem. Second, I also agree that in this world today, bullying is a broad term used in many situations that really don't deserve it. Be careful not to make a bigger deal about an incident than is required. I just may be a difference in cultures. I had this same problem with cussing. Some boys come from families that except cussing as a part of their communication and don't understand why some people are offended by certain words. They are not purposly trying to hurt other scout with cussing. What scouts have to learn is that while they may not have meant harm, they did create it and they have to step back when they see that. The Friendly Courteous Kind part of the Scout Law is different for everyone one, but each individuallity has to be respected for their interpretation. The scout law is about serving others and serving others is the opposite of hurting or offending. It isn't that hard once you get the scout to understand that is how you will judge their behavior toward others. Good luck with this. I think it will be a good lesson on being a better SM. What ever you do, you will learn from it for the next time. Barry

>>I think since the oath and law are usually only words to memorize and not necessarily applied in the actual methods of scouting- as is clearly evidenced in the Lisabob affair (bullying breaks about half of the scout laws and the oath), then really what the oath and law serve to do is sell scouting to mom and dad and the CO which is now usually a church.

>>Well for starters Barry, how about the Scouts assault on the US Army during practice manuvers?

>>The thought that Scouting was like the movie is just wrong.

>>I am a critic of BSA because I think BSA has lost its efficacy, its standing as a premier youth organization, and its reputation in communities around the nation. And I don't blame society- even though there is always blame to go around-

I am a firm believer and proponent of the BSAs mission to develop boys into men who make ethical decisions based from the Scout Law and Oath. In my own words I like to say that we develop citizens of character and leaders of integrity. I also believe that the when used correctly, the 3 Aims and 8 Methods are almost a genus system of reaching that mission. I know genus is a bold word, but I have watched the system repeatedly work so well that Im still amazed by it. That being said, we have had discussions and debates of the most important method and if methods should be applied equally. My experience is that each boy needs some methods more than others to grow toward a balance in better character. A natural leader may struggle with advancement where as the nerdy sort of fellow flies through advancement but struggles mightily in leadership. Of course most boys struggle with uniform at some point in their life and Patrol Method is difficult even for many adults to understand. And yet, we adults seem to struggle with the idea of letting a boy choose his path through the scouting program. I have always taught adult leaders that if we could only have a boy for one day, shouldnt our program be rich enough that that one boy leaves a little closer to our mission of growth in character. So, when I hear of a scout who leaves the troop on his 18th birthday as a tenderfoot, I dont pause with a moment of regret. There are eight methods to help a boy grow into a man and advancement is only one. If we are lucky enough to have a scout leave on his 18th birthday, I can only think that his family and community are blessed by how this scout will serve them in their future. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

yes I agree, but a lot of is being taught to the adults stuff the scouts already know. Since most of what adults should be doing is teaching, guiding,and mentoring, might as well let the scouts practice on the adults. If you can gets your scouts to instruct at IOLS and the boys are willing, go for it. Barry

This is a really good question. The expectation of JASMs are different for every troop, but the primary objective is to give the scout challenges more along the lines of an ASM. When I was the Council JLT Chairman, we developed the JLTC (NYLT) staff position as JASM training because the scouts in that position spend a lot of time learning to teach course classes and skills for guiding the scouts during the course. It really was great training. I don't know if NYLT does as good, but I would start there. But, you got me wondering about the adult training classes and I think that is really a good idea. Specifically I was thinking about the Introduction to Outdoor Leaders Skills. If I were still on the Council Training Committee, and I am not, I would suggest that we train new JASM scouts to teach that course to the adults. They scouts know the skills, but they would learn how to teach and work guiding scouts like ASMs but teaching and guiding the adults in the course. Since it is unlikely your council or district would use your scouts to train the adults, have a weekend or a day where your JASMs teach your new adults the same skills they teach at IOLS. I think you find everyone enjoying the experience. We kind of this in our troop. On the first campout of the year with all the new scouts, we have the new adults sit in with new scouts in Woods Tools class. The scouts teach the whole class and we find it is a good introduction for all the new parents to a boy run program. Just go a little farther and make a day of it with fire building, and many of the same things taught in IOLS. Barry

>>Can a group bully itself? Yep, they do it all the time and it can happen in a boy-led program. It's called peer pressure and this as well can be both positive and negative.

>>We are kinda dweeby. Most of us don't see the need to adorn ourselfs with the manufacturer's logo to the point that we even get "Gold Wing" tattoos.

The best one I've seen is a cooking contest between each troops' adults combined for the meal that is served to the whole camp that evening. Interestingly barbequing whole pigs, roasting turkeys and creating out of this world stews keeps the adults pretty busy the whole day. If all the troops cook in one area, the adults get to know each other pretty good. Barry

>>You have it right ITS ME. When someone is given a directive to accomplish a task from the "higher ups" the only recourse many have is to simply bully. When the SM dictates to the SPL, who dictates to the PLC, who dictates to the PL, who dictates to his members, bullying is going to happen somewhere along the way.

>>Gotta stay with the thread. >Gotta stay with the thread.

yes,those are the same natural leaders who would earn the eagle if they were in scouts. Kathy is talking about the other 97%of the youth. Barry

sports is not boy led and it generally only develops natural leaders. Scouts done correctly is aleadership development program for all boys. Iwas also a coach while was a scout leader. Barry

aims and methods are what sets this program apart from the others. I can't think of another that is better or even equal. Sports & church youth groups don't develop the confidence & independence a good troop does. Barry