Eagledad

I don't think this is a good question. Webelos are told over and over that Boy Scouts is more fun because they get to make all the decisions. So, yes, they are excited to join. The problem occurs when they find that not only do the scouts tell each other what to do in the patrols, they are also responsible for their safety in the cold dark scary woods. "It's going to be OK" is not a sufficient answer to their real fear. There are ways to help this problem, but this isn't the right thread for that discussion. Barry

This is the list I sent to National back in 2000. Especially drop Lions and Tigers.

The "re-up" as you call it, wasn't a significant number until after around 2000 when National added to the Webelos requirements of visiting a SM and filling out the application form before crossover. Yes, there were a few even before that, but not the significant number compared to scouts who do attend their first meetings and drop out within a year. Scouts who start going to meetings and drop out in the first year is easy to track. The problem is that the solution isn't easy. Barry

As I said, when you work with the program and membership everyday at several levels, a picture starts to form. I'll add one more statistic to the Boy Scouts membership 21% drop; more scouts drop out in the first year (really first 6 months) of the troop experience than any other single year of scouting. That is the result of the sudden shift from the scouts safe adult lead lifestyle to a more self-independent boy lead expectation. That drop has been consistent since National started tracking drop outs. The cause is a human nature reality that is hard to get around. I'm saying the 21% would be a lot less if not for the first year drop outs, which would expose the cub program problem to be even more significant. Barry

I have always felt that the very top heavy program structure of the Cub Scouts is the direct problem with the constant decline for scouting at all ages. If the scouts leave at the Cub level, they never get to the older age levels to experience the program. Most of the changes National has done to the Cubs program in the last 30 years added significant burden on pack leaders. Tigers is a killer. It's hard to measure because there weren't any exit polls for families leaving the program. But, for those of us who worked in the weeds of program and recruiting, a story developed. Cubs, more than any other BSA program, drives families away. All that being said, I think opportunity is knocking at the door with Covid. The problem will be that the issues I'm talking about in the Cub program are still there and will eventually cause the same decline. Barry

Covid is a whole new experience, but in the past scouting families don't come back. However, good marketing can do wonders if this a Covid response. I don't get the feel the public cares much about the law suit, so my gut is Covid just pulled families back from a lot of activities. My neighbor has two scout age boys and the parents pulled them from everything a year ago. We've rarely see them out. Families might be ready to jump into a scouting type program. Great marketing opportunity, but National has never shown themselves to be marketing savvy. Barry

Yes, but suggesting that both groups are equal is just as stereotypical and neglects possible advantages of single gender approaches. You're is attempting to shut down a thought process again, which is condescending to the other members on the forum. Until folks are willing to have an intellectual discussion on the subject, it will continue to be a two -sided debate. I wonder how a discussion on this discussion among intelligent minds would go. Seems pretty close minded, even hostile. Do you really believe yours's should be the only one opinion counts in the group? Forget the question, you gave your opinion. Folks are tired of being discounted and demonized for having a different opinion. Barry

This is correct. Girls on the other hand prioritize "organization". Organization applies to the other parts of the program, but the problem is the boys lack of organization tends to drive them to retreat and let the girls run the show. And let's not confuse organization with leadership. Being Organized isn't a higher drive or ability to lead, boys of that age just tend to default direction to those with better organization skills because following the direction is easier than being organized. Where girls struggle is their lower instinctive priority for adventure. They will tend to let the boys come up with the fun ideas and then organize for it. I've noticed in girls only programs that it's the adults who give the girls the ideas for adventure. Adults could certainly balance the situation if they understood it, but most adults believe the instincts of boys and girls are equal. They may say otherwise, but they don't know where they are different, so they treat them as equals. I found the natural adult reaction for girls being more organized is to brag about them with the intent of using peer pressure to drive the boys to grow. The boys instead just resent the adults and retreat even more. Boy grow is better when boys are developing within a common struggle of the group. Girls too. Yep, 70 percent of our scouts earned their Eagle age 16 and older. My inclination is Girls don't have any higher desire to advancement than boys, if they advance faster, it's because their organization skills making advancing easier. That being said, for some reason adults want the girls to prove themselves, so they drive the girls harder. The problem here is that adults get antsy is their scouts aren't close to Eagle by age 15 (mothers are the worst) and start driving the scouts to advance instead of doing adventure. There are a lot of scouters who really believe that scout loose their drive to earn the Eagle completely after age 14. As you point out, if they are having fun, their motivation generally comes at a later maturity when the earning the award actually has some personal meaning. Barry

,,

Well, yes and no. Yes, they wanted to girl membership fees without loosing the boy membership fees. No, my experience is that until puberty, the female's instinct of "organization" runs all over the male's "lack-of-organization" instinct. Once through puberty, growth is more equal and gender competition isn't such an issue. At least from a scouting perspective. Barry

I was talking to our Council Summer Camp organizer about why we were going out of council. When the subject of bikes came up, he explained that adding bikes to the program would quadruple their insurance cost. Might as well include calling the Bob Cat ceremony a hazing activity because the scouts were held up-side-down while getting their badge.. They could have used reason and said it was a safety concern and all would have been fine. But they instead tried to portray the volunteers innocent intension as something foul and self-serving. That was when I realized the professionals were not as professional as the standard the volunteers expected of them. We volunteers should have held National accountable for their emotional helicoptering mis-leadership actions. Barry

That is the extremism. I've talked to a lot of folks who are, were, and were never involves in scouting. None of them believe this is the BSA's fault as an organization. They believe we are getting a bad deal from ambulance chasing lawyers. So, whether some folks have lost faith the BSA, it certainly isn't "virtually no one". Barry

2000

Interesting. When we were about 80 scouts strong in a district of 12 troops, the majority of the scouts attended a large (3000 students) upper middleclass Highschool. Toward the end of each school year, all the students voted for the top 7 leaders of the school. I don't remember why 7 was the magic number, but one year 6 of the 7 were scouts active in my troop. And the 7th was a girl. I'm sure she would have been in our troop today. I have no guess to how that happened. Barry

Well thanks. The engineer in me wonders how they got that number. Still, you are right of course. Barry

I don't know how the YPT started down this direction, but I guess the engineer in me wants to see the data that would drive the discussion down this path. Barry

I disagree with your post for your one comment: Folks already notice suspicious behavior and stop it. That isn't the problem is that sexual abuse doesn't occur enough to recognize a problem. We've allowed it to sound like and everyday problem in every unit. It does not. I was talking to my 68 year old Eagle brother in-law about this last week. He brought up the discussion because he is getting some emails about getting on the abuse bandwagon because he was a scout as a youth. He was appalled by the suggestion that he had witnessed, let alone experienced abuse while a scout. YPT is already doing as much as it can. I don't see how it can be more "It's mostly just some common place best practices coupled with some awareness of what to look for" than it already is. You don't even see this level of YPT in schools.. We just allowed fearmongers to have too much voice without enough defensive reasoning. Barry

I think our education system has failed our society into believing that debates (your word, not mine) has to end with a specific conclusion. Debates or discussions of observations, ideas, and so forth in early history were intended for education, hoping for, but not always expecting, a conclusion. They can just provoke higher level thought. I can certainly say that unconcluded discussions have led to many changes of idealisms including parenting, job, and religion. No winners, losers or conclusions, just growth of ideals. I instructed my kids to formulate their opinions in discussions with the intension to not to have to repeat it. Leave the opinion without their pride as something to build the discussion, not make or break it. Pride often drives folks keep repeating themselves to sway the discussion to their conclusion because they want their thoughts to be the final winning thoughts. That is rarely ever going to happen. Some of your thoughts are quite good. Be satisfied with that. Of course we can work to make things better, but I remember that before Covoid, it seemed like the news was reporting every month a new incidence of a teacher caught abusing a student. I have yet to hear a national organized effort to stop teachers abusing students. I know from my teacher kids that local policies are constantly changing to protect both the students and teachers, but it still occurs. So, Is it safe now? How safe is considered safe? Just a thought for discussion. Barry

This is also my favorite award for the same reason. Congratulations.

No, I grouped a lot of people together, so I apologize to all of you.

I know how you feel, I am called a sexist because I would rather the BSA to stay away from coed troops. I've yet to hear anyone on this forum call the GSUSA sexist. So, yes, hypocrites comes to mind. How can I be sexist for my preference and the GSUSA acceptable for theirs? I just called it as I see it. I am certainly open to a civil dialog. I like to think myself as humble and can be swayed. But as you saw yesterday, some folks look at discussions as a battle to be won and don't mind wrestling playing dirty to protect their pride. Barry

In my world both men and woman are applauded. By the way, you emotions misled your anger. The one poster who said that was demeaning the Eagle award, not the MEN or women who earn it. Barry

Hey, don't try to force me into your emotional delusional world. There was nothing sexist about the BSA. Do you believe the GSUSA is sexist? I don't, but I'm not a political activist. But, well, you need to be very careful with your answer because I personally don't see an easy out for you. Barry

You might have made some points if you could have included some non-female firsts, but instead you proved my point that this was more a celebration of a political victory than the individual accomplishment. Your response cheapens the honor of Eagle. Barry

Yes, humility is the fertile ground of morality. I don't have a problem with the BSA bragging a little about this, it's marketing after all. What I can't stand is that the recognition is more about a political correctness victory than the personal accomplishment of 1000 individuals. Which gets back to my comment about hypocrisy, is there any mention of the GSUSA as single sex scouting program? Probably the only single sex scouting program left. Activism seems to go only one way in this hostile culture. Barry