Eagledad

>>I suspect that male obesity is THE primary force supporting the "re-invention of Boy Scouts."

>>Guess I am asking - any advice? for the older guys to not feel like glorified babysitters.

>>I would like to see a recognizable senior patrol leader and patrol leader, boys leading activity's.

Hi All My son's troop visits are the reason we decided to start our own troop. We ended up taking over a dead troop of six scouts, but it was for the reason that we didnt like the way troops we visited were running. Most of the troops in our district have a CS campout as well, but our troop doesnt plan campouts or troop meetings specifically for recruiting. Our goal is every campout should be a great one and we tell the Webelos leaders that when they are ready, give us a shout. We just ask for one weeks notice so a Troop Guide will have time to help them prepare. Sometimes we ddidn't get it and we still did fine. I know we were lucky, but we never had a bad experience with the Webelos and they got to go with us on fun campouts like Biking, Shooting Sports, Triathlon Camping, Rappelling and campouts I dont remember. I think part of it is Cubs just like being with older scouts. Still, I like the idea that the what the Webelos see is what the get for the rest of their scouting experience. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Example: Troop base camp on Fri night. Patrols spread out as local conditions allow. Program during the day. Mid-afternoon the PLs are given instructions to relocate their patrols to new locations. Sometimes this is using map&compass, sometimes they're just given GPS coordinates. They pack up and head out to set up their solo patrol campsite for the evening. The guys love it. After dark, adults and/or SPL usually sneak around to check on things. If conditions are really rough (severe cold, rain, etc.), we might openly visit a campsite for a few minutes. For a different twist, we'll hit them with a surprise relocation after dark. This adds extra adventure and avoids the hassle of hauling food and cooking stuff.

>>Yah, easy there, Hal. I didn't really catch that you were tryin' to ask any of us how to run independent patrol treks, eh? More that you were fearful of 'em and arguin' against them. Maybe Eagledad and I both missed it. It's just that folks who really do run units with independent patrol outings think it's normal, and don't really see your worries and objections in the same light.

>>Each Scout leader needs to decide where his or her bravery line is drawn in permitting independent youth activities.

So Hal, are you saying the answer in your troop is NO? Barry

>>I have read many books from the early years of scouting and it was always the responsibility of the patrols to recruit their own members to fill out their 8 man patrols.

>>What level of first aid training do the scouts have, what are they carrying as a first aid kit, what are the "bail outs" along the trail, how would you get help if you needed it?

You can go as far as you want really. Or troop sometimes looks for a place where the Older Scouts take off in one direction and the rest of the troop go the other direction and rendezvous somewhere in the middle to camp. We brake camp in one location and move to another. Start small like letting your scouts out a mile or so away from your camp site on monthly campouts and have them meet you there. Next time do the same thing only have them carry their packs. Next let them out three miles away or just get creative. Look for opportunties for the scouts to hike without adults. Like summer camp, do the adults have to hike with the scouts to the dinning hall. Develop your scouts independence (and get the adults use to it) over time to where everyone is comfortable that the patrol can be left on their own. We adults tend to limit our scouts by our fears of what could happen. So what you do is train and practice the skills necessary to ease the adults fears and push out the envelope of scout independence. I had so much confidence in of our older scout groups that the two adults I sent with them to Philmont had no experience what so ever in backpacking except for the shakedowns. Both adults where in their 60s and the older scouts took very good care of them. Training and experience, thats all you need to do. Its just that some folks automatically dont consider the idea so they dont even start training to get the experience. But it all adds more fun to the program. Funny story, we dropped off the scouts to hike into camp one weekend and planned it so that they would walk into a simulated car accident. Our older scouts set up the mock accident with fake blood and broken bone and such. It all worked out well and everyone had fun. But two months later our caravan of cars drove up on a real accident while going to summer camp. Ever scout jumped out ready to help the injured. The accident was caused by slick roads from a recent rain and we adults were afraid another car would loose control into one of our 80 scouts. So we asked them to get back in the cars and you should have heard the bashing I took by not letting them help with the first-aid. Ah, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>As a point of interest, how do your Scouts follow the MB sign-up guidelines (get a list of counselors, contact counselor, set up meetings, etc.) at summer camp?

>>When in doubt, ask the Scout. You will be amazed at how often the solution will be simpler and fairer than anything you could think up on your own.

A few years back our district committee was having trouble finding someone to plan and lead our annual District Merit Badge Fair. Because of that, we (the district committee) considered canceling it. When word of that got out, I got a rush of calls from Scoutmasters complaining that if we canceled the fair, their scouts would not be able to advance. In short, the troops in our District had developed their unit advancement program down to the MB fair and summer camp. I got the brunt of the calls from SMs because it was my suggestion to the committee to cancel the Fair. I wasnt a fan of the fair anyways, but my suggestion was based from the idea that District shouldnt have to provide any activity that the units arent willing to support. The committee took the calls from the SMs as a sign of urgency to get the MB fair going. I got up and told them that it is the units job to provide a healthy program of advancement and the fair is a major cause of the problem and continuing the fair was just feeding the problem. We should be training the SMs to how they are supposed to lead the advancement part of their program. The committee didnt take my suggestion. We keep getting into discussions where folks on the forum keep promoting the old traditional scout program, and then follow with ideals and activities that counter traditional scouting. Our district MB Fair started 25 years ago as a way of providing scouts an opportunity to earn hard to earn MBs like oceanography and veterinary medicine. In the beginning, there wasnt more than a dozen badges offered. But the fair grew into the monster we see today because each year the adults planning the program try to one up each other by making the next year bigger and better. Bragging rights go to the planners who bring in the most scouts. Planners of our district fair are reaching out to scouts in other districts. The fair has developed into a day where scouts had to be in the building by 8:00 am and couldnt leave until 4:00pm. One room was used to hold those roudy scouts who disrupted a class. Adults roamed the halls trying to catch scouts not in a class during class time. Does this sound like Scouting? I talked to one scoutmaster who brought scouts in their Webelos uniforms. He just signed them up for his troop that week and was trying to give them a good start, he said. Sheesh! The BSA has Mission of developing men who make ethical decisions, is this program working toward that goal? If you look at the policy recommendations for a scout to sign up for a MB, the scout is supposed to seek a list from the scoutmaster, choose a counselor, contact that counselor, set up schedule of meetings with the counselor, fill out the MB card with all the information and then get the Scoutmasters signature before he even starts to work on the badge. Those proceedures are all very important opportunties to practice organization, communication and social etiquette. All important traits that young adults should practice for their future in society. All of this was skipped in our MB fair by getting the scout to sign up for all his badges weeks before the fair. The SM is not envolved at all and doesn't sign the car until the scout is finished the class, typically in one day. There are those here who talk about the bad example of scouters not following all the YP rules, yet it is OK to ignore these little guidelines to streamline a scout to faster rank advancement. Honestly I think in the big picture of the Mission of scouting, skipping the simple guidelines for signing up for a MB is a greater crime. And yet, just about every BSA summer camp requires the units to do just that. Its hard for me to define and Eagle mill. With adults who feel determined to raise the number of Eagles, Im not so sure that our whole program hasnt made the turn to being and Eagle mill. I personally think that sort of attitude feeds an Eagle Mill mentality and hurts the main program in general. We have a few troops in our district that brag that they will get your son his eagle by age 14 if the scout cooperates with their program. Interestingly those are the biggest units in the district, and yet have the weakest older scout programs. The adults of those units tend to lead our District Merit Badge Fair as well. I feel strongly that you will accurately measure the quality of a troop by the quality of the older scouts. I'm starting to also believe that you can measure the quality of the adults by measuring there priorities of the Eight Methods. A troop that needs outside MB programs to advance their scouts have poor quality program. I think the first challenge for any unit to try and not be an Eagle mill is to guide their scouts to follow the procedures for signing up for ALL their MBs. Even at summer camp. That alone will get the adults to focus a little more on developing skills of character instead of badge of stature. I promise that those units will see a dramatic difference in scouts confidence and social skills with other adults. And if that scout fails to earn his promised Eagle, well he still has those other skills to use the rest of his life. Sorry this went long. I promise that it started short and just went on and on. Hey have a great day all. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I've been in the program over 35 years and just found out I've never had a background check. Had to fill out a new app for recharter and I doubt it's made its way through the hoops yet.

>>Teaching them Greenbar, JLT, and TLT/NYLT gives them all the options for their consideration. As it has been pointed out, there's a lot of myth floating around and even more adult interference in the processes. (after all where does one think is the #1 source for these bogus myths?)

My wife volunteered me to be our new Cub Master in the month of June and my very first scouting activity since I was a youth was attending a Webelos summer camp with my oldest son. During the second day, all the adults were called together and told in no uncertain terms that if the YP Guidelines where not obeyed, the camp would be shut down. YP training wasn't required back then and I had only been in scouts a couple weeks, so I was clueless. The folks running the camp seemed competent, but not all that professional. Ironically a few years later, I would be training them to be Troop Leaders. We became good friends. Anyways I left the meeting unsure of what it was really about. These camp leaders were clearly putting their foot down, but for what? I found through a parent from antoehr den that a female Webelos leader had been seen walking in on her Webelos as they were changing out of their swimsuits. They were having a good-O-time as boys do yelling and playing around inside the bathroom, so she walked in and told them to cut the horseplay. I found it interesting that the female leader of the camp didn't recognize that this female Webelos leaders was just doing what I've seen my wife and countless other mothers do and that is control her children. I guess she violated some YP rules somewhere, but even I knew that this clearly was and over reaction to an innocent nurturing behavior. That was how I was introduced to the world of adults in scouting. It made and impression and scared the fire out of me. Barry

>>The assumption is that it doesn't really matter how good a Patrol Leader is. >In fact the politically correct position these days is that it is "wrong" for a Scoutmaster to judge which Scouts are the best leaders and to guide the Patrols in the direction of their own best leaders, as both Baden-Powell Troops AND the BSA did before 1972.

>>It'll attract a few, but for the most part, from what I have seen in my council and what seems to be common threads on the forum, it just doesn't seem to be doing the job. 2-3% of the boys Eagle.

>>I was not directing the term racist toward anyone on this forum so I am sorry if you took offense. I feel that BSA faces a choice of either not reaching out to Latino communities for fear of "unscoutlike incidents" or to face the issue head-on and take a stand that the BSA will view such behavior as unacceptable from scouts or scouters.

>>We can be a purist organization that still operates as Baden Powell did in 1909 and have a very small membership or we can adapt to the times and promote a program that interests boys in 2009 and spread the values, traditions and lessons of scouting.

>>I just hope no one thinks the solution lies in red berets.

>>"I personally think that the Tiger program added in the early 80s is the single biggest contributor to the loss of boys in the cub program today. Why?"

This will be interesting to say the least. I do agree that changes have to be made to keep up with the times. But how far and to what level? I personally think that the Tiger program added in the early 80s is the single biggest contributor to the loss of boys in the cub program today. That indirectly affects the numbers at the troop level. But you dont see the BSA getting away from it. In fact, they must be happy with the performance because they have been enhancing the Tiger program. It would be interesting to learn how National thinks about these things. Barry

>>Why do you need to let people know who you are? The Scouts know who they are isn'that enough? And they will hopefully learn from this that it is important to help others for the sake of helping others and not for the recognition they get from it.