Eagledad

Get everyone ready Onehour, that is an overwhelming number. I learned to pull in all the parents as well as scouts and prepare them for the challenge. It is a good challenge but you need to ask for their patience as you guys are going to have to do a lot of changes to make it work, at least for a few months. As you get your feet under you again, then you can get back to normal. But if you, the adults and especially the scouts aren't ready the first meeting, everyone will wonder if it is all worth it. We got 33 new scouts our first year and lost half of them by summer camp because we we learning as we went. We got 35 new scouts the next year and kept 75 percent of them and we kept 95 percent jsut about every year after that. We made a lot of mistakes, but learned quickly and changed. Have the appearence of a plan for the new guys so that when they walk in, you and the SPL can Knowingly guide them to their spot where they are met with open arms from the other scouts. Don't let new guys mingle by themselves very long. That is when your PLC will start to loose control. Its going to be loud and kind of crazy. The old scouts need to show patience and kindness. It will feel better after the third meeting. When the parents have questions, be attentive, and understanding. Also be up front, "this is new for us too, but we will get there". Its a good problem, you just need to get ready. At least you have 50 scouts to help. We only had 12 our first time. Shesh. Good luck and we are here if you have any questions. Barry

I was talking to a dad who had four sons in our troop. His first son actually started with a different troop and he quit after the first campout. The dad told me that the troop separated the new scouts from the rest of the troop. They were put on a first class first year program and had to camp in a different area and do a different program. The troop was also sending the new scouts to a different summer camp than the rest of the scouts. His son had had enough of feeling like a Webelos, so he quit after the first campout and joined our troop. I think that was an extreme case, but I do find that most troops kind of separate the new scouts from the rest of the group for a while at least, and that is not what those guys saw when the visited as Webelos. Our troop is mixed age and if we can, we throw them in the existing patrols from the beginning. That makes it a little harder to become very cliquie. Oh it takes a little time for everyone to get use to the new guys and visa versa, but in general they are accepted as equals in the patrols. It is a struggle at the begining because any experienced leader (boy or adult) will tell you the most undisciplined scouts in the troop are the new guys. But patience and consistent positive attitudes are virtues you want the boys to develop, and adults too for that matter. Remember, the new guys are going through a major shock. This for most of them is the first time they are ask to trust boys for guidance and reliance on themselves. They are being pushed to put their lives in the hands of boys. For most of the new guys, it was likely that the parent carried their gear to the trailer on the first campout. They need just a little bit of hand holding the first couple of months just so they dont feel too lost. A good group of older scouts makes a world of difference. And let me just say, the older the scout, the better. This will come off wrong to some here, but looking back on our troop as it matured from 12 Webelos starting the troop to 90 scouts with 40 percent of them 14 and older, I never saw a good Troop Guide that was 14 or younger, and I NEVER saw a Bad Troop Guide that was 15 or older. Puberty makes a huge difference in the motivation to serve others. For those of you who aren't there yet, you have a lot to look forward to. The other thing you can just about count on is if you still have your new scouts after six months, you will likely have them for at least three years. Summer camp is the last chance for helping the new guys not feel like the new guys anymore. First class program is OK I guess, but boys join scouts for adventure. Give them adventure with the rest of the troop. Don't let them feel like outsiders looking in. In our troop, the members of the band of brothers (patrols) are of different ages and experiences. They are use to the oldest guys running the troop and eventually moving on and the newest guys joining up and needing to learn skills. It happens every year where as the same age patrols rarely see it. They become a clique by default. Good luck and help your son fix the problem. Help him to see those new scouts in his place three years from now and ask him how the troop can get them there. Then support his ideas. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>While I disagree with some of his gender-based assumptions,

We have use Seagull Outfitters several times for the last ten years. They are located at the end of the Gun Flint trail. We like them because they have good equipment and a nice bunkhouse on their site. http://www.seagulloutfitters.com/ Barry

>>I think having a permanent WebII DL would solve a lot of problems.

>>If the kids are burnt out by the time they get to boy scouts, then the Webelos need to rethink thier programs.

>>I must say though, every year I try to get more from my Pack involved, and every year it is my Tigers who are out there working on their own.

>>Obviously the adults are convincing themselves that they are having the kids lead when in fact they are setting the agenda and eventually the boys figure it out. This is following, not leading.

I agree with Lisa that we should be more focused on doing a good turn daily. Our troop did spend some time on the subject now and then. I have several SM Minutes to that subject, but honestly, we were pretty good at helping the community. I'm sure we could have done better, but the got a lot of practice. I taught our PLC that the scout goals are the Eight Methods and the adult goals are the Three Aims. I asked the PLC to make sure that all the scouts have opportunities to practiced citizenship, character and fitness on every campout. That usually included summer camp and high adventure as well. At first that scared them a little until they realize that most of what they do on campouts is practicing fitness and character, it was just the citizenship that required a little planning. But even that turned out to be pretty easy because the areas we camped usually needed some kind of maintenance that required the muscle of all the scouts. I was always trying to find fun ways to get the scouts to think in the ideals of scouting. I always had a pocket full of Fireballs candy to reward any good turn I saw from the scouts. At first it was kind of a joke that the scouts would purposely act out some good turn to get candy. But once the joke part wore off, they started taking them as badges of honor, I think because they found that selfless acts made them feel good about themselves. I also always put out a whole box of Tootsie Pop suckers in the camps for anyone to take. They could have as many as they wanted provided I or the SPL never found a wrapper and they never took more than one at a time. If we saw the rules were broken, the box was taken away for the rest of the day. That only happened a few times before they caught on. I remember one scout on the PLC commenting how those suckers reinforced the idea of character when nobody was looking. Our council quit doing the Scouting For Food Drive because a private group took it over for all of Oklahoma City, which included all the businesses and any other organization who wanted to participate in the food drive. It turned political, so the Council bailed out and we were all grateful because it was a mess. When we did do it, I had a hard time with it because the Council kept trying to make it more efficient. They wanted more food for less work because the adults keep complaining how much time it took because it required two weekends. The first weekend to deliver food bags, the second to pick them up. So to help reduce the complaints, they ask the units to deliver the sacks at the door without knocking. The sack had instructions for the house owner to leave the sack on the porch the next Saturday. I didnt like that because I wanted our scouts to meet the community and visa-versa. And I couldnt see how it really helped the adults anyway. I used to joke with the District Committee that the Troops had it down to a Mafeking type of activity of hiding in the bushes until the owners went inside the house and then they jumped up, dropped off the sack and ran to the next house. I solve the two weekend problem by skipping the first weekend, than have the scouts carry the food bag with them to each house, knock on the door, introduce themselves and why they were there and ask for the food. We found out the scouts really enjoyed meeting the folks, especially the Cubs. They seem to have a great adventure story for every house and you would be surprised how many adults wanted to tell their experiences as a scout. IT turned out to be great public relations for the scouts and it was something the scouts look forward to every year. Well we had been doing it that way for about five years when I joined the District committee and I proposed the same idea to the District. I also explained that our community needed to meet our scouts and this was the best opportunity for doing that. They werent sure how the units would like it, but they tried it. It turned out to be a huge success because the units liked it and it tripled the collection of food. So our District commissioner and DE asked me to propose the idea to Council. They also decided to try it the next year, but that was the year they had the falling out with the city and it was never tried. As for keeping a log, I know our scouts did that because we taught them to do all their own paperwork, but our troop did so many community projects, it just was never a big topic of discussion. If the scout was active at all in the troop, they had the hours. Good subject, Lisabob. Barry

>>Train: we train Provide opportunities: We provide opportunities Give them room to lead: OK we do that Still, the patrol method is just not biting into the road.

We've had patrols of 6 to 12 scouts depending on their stage of recruiting and loosing scouts for many years. We've had just two or three scouts Patrols on a campout many times and they do fine with food. I don't remember the causes, but we've had a patrol of one a couple times and those scout not only did fine, they did great. Your parents just dont understand how important team building is for a patrol. Team building takes time (months) to build a pride of brotherhood and trust. Even if it is just two scouts, they are holding the patrol pride together everytime the troop is assembled. They still give the same patrol yell and hold up the same patrol flag. What ever it is that makes their patrol different from the others, they represent that difference and maintain it for all the other scouts. That pride is required for scouts to start respecting leadership. The excuses you are hearing are parents concerned with the comfort of sons based on the comfort of themselves. But boys can handle a lot and they like handing a lot with pride. I was a little worried about the patrol of one, but he not only did OK, he was excited to prove that he could do it. Life is an adventure and the troop is a great place to have that adventure because it is a safe place. If the scout was truly in danger, every scout and adult in the troop would jump in to help. Of course you know me, if a patrol forgot to bring its food, they have to figure out what to do. The adults don't give any advice, we just stand by to hear what they are going to do. AND WE HAVE NEVER HAD A SCOUT GO HOME HUNGRY. They work it out. The other patrols help them out. And they learn well from the experience. My older sons patrol brought food but forgot cooking utensils. So they cooked on the fire. They enjoyed that experience so much that the continued cooking on fires for most campouts after that. My son even taught all his New Scouts how to cook on a fire when he was the Troop Guide. The boys can handle it because it is fun, its the parents who are weak and need some encouragement. They are taking away a lot of fun and adventure of your troop. If is important for them to experience their independence of letting their son having independence. Just when are they going to start to learn their son handle adversity, out when they get in the real world? The troop is the best place for a scout to experience adversity because it is safe and controlled. And, they have mentors who can guide them as they learn from their experiences. Now is the best and safest time to let these guys experience struggles of life. A patrol of two in nothing for the boys. The adults need to develop the confidence to allow the scouts to learn from it. We all have to do it because we are all parents. But we have to do it. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>> Having a Star Ranked PL of the NSP take the boys to Philmont is kinda dumb.>the Star-ranked PL of the NSP could turn the PL reins over to another scout and he would continue on as TG for the NSP, training the new PL and be eligible for the Philmont contingent> Maybe when the Star-ranked TG returns from Philmont he'll be able to return to the patrol and work at getting all his NSP buddies up to first class so that in a year or two they too can go.

>>Notice how the word patrol can be completely omitted from the discussion? Notice how the leadership responsibilities of a big trip are shifted off the boys and onto the adults? >"Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing." This happens when patrols don't organize their own independent activities. This is how troop-method units operate. The patrols are broken up for convenience sake.

>>As long as there are standards and/or requirements, someone must be charged with maintaining them. In Scouting, it's the Scoutmaster.

Stosh, you lost me. Other than that you guys restrict patrol size, the rest of you post doesnt seem to address the subject. Im glad your SPL said no to paintball, but isnt that what he is supposed to do? BrentAllen, I was the Scoutmaster of a troop of 90 scouts. About 40 percent of the troop was 14 and older and we average about three high adventure trips a years. We also take the Troop of 40 to 60 scouts on many campouts that require several smaller groups to function. But that is easy for a troop because its made of patrols. Size just never came up as an issue for outdoor activities. So I dont quite understand your concern. Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing. Those patrols meet outside their normal patrol and troop meetings to organize and prepare for their trip. Maybe that is what you mean by special outings. How would that take away from the scouting program? Each patrol still requires a leading, planning and team work. We have been doing temporary special activity patrols for years and they only enhance your program, not take away from it. Im glad you are looking a head and trying to prevent problems, but you are almost creating problems here. As long as you maintain healthy permanent patrols, temporary patrols will only add more quality to your program. Sounds like your program is doing well. Barry

>>A gate keeper implies failure and I suppose it depends on what you mean by failure

>> Our patrols are limited to 8 boys max. There are very few instances where a limit is placed lower than that. Troop-method scouting will always have problems with size limits, patrol-method won't.

Great story, thanks. I found the struggle for me was finding an approach that worked for each individual scout. Each of us is inspired differently, which is why I think scoutmasters have to be creative to do a good job. And its kind of funny, I heard more than once a good Scoutmasters talk about himself as the bad cop in a good-cop bad-cop scenario. I think it is a very humble statement. Good job MattR I love this scouting stuff. Barry

First off, that sounds like a really cool Camporee. I wish we lived closer. I can't remember what they call it, but the rule is to have a least three people. At least two adults or two scouts. I think this will count as an activity and not an outing. A solution is have two adults walk around together to check on the events. Hang around for a couple minutes then walk to the next. That way the scouts are doing the boy run thing without adult supervision and the adults are doing their check, but not staying long enough to take away the boy run expereince. Everyone gets what they want and no rules are broken. Barry

>>Sort of a chicken/egg situation, depending on whose perspective you start from.

>>With the wisdom of hindsight: I would have separated into two hiking groups. My first choice would be one with just youths hiking and one with just adult hiking. Then pick points on the trail for rendezvous (at the ravine, a trail intersection, campsite). If that ratio didn't work (because the parents cried foul) pick one or two of the faster and quieter adults to go with the youths.

>>A Scoutmaster should have known long before that point that the Scout had some areas in which to improve.

>>Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell.

While I hold the highest respect for Lisabob in scouting matters, I kind of feel this situation is one step past that point of her advice. I would suggest SeaGull99 read her sons scout handbook on the requirements for the Star rank. Then I suggest she call the CC to set up a meeting over coffee (at her home if you wish) with both the CC and the SM to discuss the situation. Don't wait for a yes or no, but instead give them the choice of two times to choose from. When you meet, in a very kind voice just go strait into it and read the requirements out of the book. Then in a kind voice, ask for the SM's explination of how her son is not yet qualified for the rank. You have to make this meeting as non confrontation as possible, but at some point there needs to be the understanding among everyone there that the SM is adding requirements that are not in the book. You will get a better idea of how to move forward after that meeting. Barry

Thanks for your thoughts Beav, we are ok. The tornado took and interesting path that went 1 mile west of my mother, a half mile north of my sister, 2 miles west or my house and just a couple blocks from my mother in-law. In fact the picture on the front page of the Daily Oklahoman news paper this morning, showing all the downed power lines as far as you can see, is by my mother in-laws neighborhood. I drove through the storm last night to bring my mother in law to our home until she got power back. By the looks of the damage, I thought she would be staying with us at least a couple days, but as she was packing her clothes, low and behold the power came back on. The linesmen in Oklahoma are amazing. Between our Spring storms and our winter ice storms, I guess they get a lot of practice. For you golfers, the tornado cut a large swath through the Oak Tree Golf county club golf course, which you see from time to time on the PGA tour. A few houses there were leveled and I think Bob Tways (golf pro) house is one of them. Amazingly, nobody was killed. Our town is now cut in half with from the damage and down power lines, so it make take some time to clean up. But for the size tornado that went through, we have been very blessed with no deaths and just minor enjuries. The folks in southern Oklahoma werent so lucky. Several deaths and it was near our Council camp, Slippery Falls. We may have lots of work this spring getting ready for summer camp. Have a great day all. Barry