Eagledad

>>My advice is to run it past the local Fire Marshall, as Hal said. If you're really that gutsy and confident, invite him to one of the ceremonies and surprise him.

Boy that is a tough one. I tried to kill such a Troop (with the blessing of the DE) in our District when I was District Membership chairman. It had long and bad reputation of terrible leadership. I also had concerns of safety and bad examples of role modeling (adultery among the leaders). Our goal was to kill it long enough to clean its reputation then start it back up with a fresh new CO and committee. Our problem is that this is the oldest Troop (real old) in the area and a few of the committee members (real old) were scouts in the troop during its hey day. They would rather have a bad program than see the troop of their memories die. Because of that, they accept anyone willing to SM there worn out troop to keep it alive, and they have had many bad SMs. I think I wrote of the beer incident? That was about ten years ago, but the boney fingers of the old guard hold tight and the troop still survives. There must be a reason for these units to stay alive because they wont die. Barry

I will stand up and brag that Ive done the ceremony many times. I wont get into the details about safety, we did an extensive job to be safe. A person would be at more risk slicing potatos for dinner. The mix splattering on folks is impossible, at least the way we did it. I will say that I found indoors better than outdoors because we could control the elements a lot better. You all go ahead talk down something of which you have no experience, but this is a discussion on safety. Oh I understand folks being afraid of what they dont understand. Lots of troops dont allow the uses of axes, hatchets or even saws. As I said before, to learn safety, you have to practice it. You cant just talk you way around it. We asked the experts and they found the ceremony safe provided we used a few safety procedures. Like anything, do it right and you will do it safely. Barry

>>Our derby is this Sunday and I've been asked to help check-in cars. Does anyone have a template "check-in" sheet which includes all these "cheat factors" to look for? I'd love to use one so that there is consistency in the process. Thanks.

>>Whenever possible let the Scouts handle the safety. I have found that if I can wait just a little longer than I normally would to put a stop to something a Scout will. The difference is that when a Scout tells a another Scout that what they are doing or about to do is stupid he only has to say it once.

Our troop has about two miles that we four times a year. Our town even put up sign with our Troop number giving us credit for that street. I used that activity to get younger scouts some leadership practice. Beary

In the old days this would not have been and issue new scouts lerned their skills from their patrol mates. And we have to understand the difference between advancement and learning skills. As other have said, he needs to hang with his friends and enjoy the parts of scouting his friends bragged about. I'm sure they will be glad to teach the skills their friend needs to enjoy the program. Barry

>>This type of camp program puts the onus on the Scoutmaster to just say no.

I'm with Narraticong, boys dream of this stuff, help them make the dreams real. I think this is a great idea I wished I would have thought of. Some folks look at bows as tools, then there are those who only see weapons. So let the scouts carve the bows and then take the group to a range to learn safety and shoot their hand made bows and satisfy the can't do folks. I like the idea of teaching a little history and learning how to make strings as well. This could be a great project. Good Job Barry

One of my first Eagles was deaf. It doesn't take long for everyone to think of him as normal and treat him that way. You forget he is deaf until someone new in the troop meets him. Evmori has great advice as he always does. Your scout is just like all the boys with the same dreams, attitudes, boy problems and behaviors. In fact, our scout tried to used his deafness to his advantage. Its seems that sometimes he didn't hear the instructions, if you know what I mean. The parents of our deaf scout were so proud that I did his Eagle Scoutmaster Confrence at his home so his parent could watch. I know that is unusual, but it was something special for them. You won't need mom very long. Barry

>>Boys do stupid things and adults should be ever vigilant to any and all situations,

I dont think it really matters whether you use an SPL or PL, the goal at this point of time is to develop a patrol method type program. As Eamonn said, that is a challenge on its own. I suggest that all the scouts and all the adults involved get the Patrol Leaders Handbook. That gives everyone a guideline toward where they should be going, and how to get there. I also suggest that the adults, at least the SM, get the SPL Handbook for himself and the youth leader so they can work together under the same guidelines. These books are a quick read and very clear. They are enough to point the program in a direction that everyone agrees. See, the biggest problem at this time is getting a grasp of the ultimate goal. What is the purpose of all this work? If everyone has a different goal like Eagle or character or leader, then the group will struggle. It is probably a good time to start with review BSAs Vision and Missions statement and then follow that with Aim and Methods. Even the SPL Handbook talks about those goals and methods, so everyone should get acquainted with them to have one path to work toward. Let the SPL and PL Handbook guide the program as best as it can be followed by such young scouts. If either the scouts or the adults have some question about how to do something, they can sit down together and refer to those to guides. Likely it will have some advice. I also find that scouts this young wear out pretty quickly, so I like the idea of four month elections the first year just to give the boys a break. Depending on how much responsibility the adults really give the boys will depend on how fast the fatigue. One very important bit of advice is that an 11 year old should have all the same responsibilities of a 16 year old. Just not as much. In other words, dont ignore a part of the program because the boys dont seem mature enough to do them. Build the program you want five years from now. Again the SPL and PL handbooks are the source. I know a SM who waited until his scouts were 14 before letting them run PLCs. When handed them over, they didnt have clue what to do and it took about year to get it under control. And 11 year old can run a PLC meeting, but his experience and maturity must be taken into consideration. Also, no matter the situation, the adults should never takeover leadership of the scouts. Instead the adults need to ask for permission to say a few words or explain something. The SM should never stand with the SPL or PL while they are talking but instead behind the scout to show his respect for the scouts authority. That keeps the authority on the scouts. In our troop, the adults never put up the sign first, they wait for the scouts to put it up, then follow in support. It can be very trying for the adults, but eventually it works ouytIts just another way for the adults to remember not to take over. Yes, there will be some chaos at first, but that is how we learn. Finally, even though this group may have plenty of funds, I find that fund raising to aquire all the troop equipment is an excellent way to bond. Working hard together is the best team builder I can think of for both the scouts and the adults. Good luck, the results from building a successful troop are quite rewarding. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

My dad's Scoutmaster didn't go with them on many campouts. They would tell the SM about their experiences at the next Troop meeting and he would then discuss with them how to do the things they did wrong differently the next time. That was during WWII and their SM couldn't go out of necessity. But I wonder if that should have been the norm. Now of course my dads troop never camped any farther away than they were willing to hike out of Laurel Mississippi. Still, I'm sure it was an adventure. Barry

I stayed away from the troop for six months while the new scoutmaster got his feet under him. It was the hardest six months of my life. As much as that job enhanced my life and gave me the ability to give so much of myself, I could probably never scoutmaster again because of that six months. I love that scouting stuff. Barry

>>I am talking about "bragging rights" which can be lost when bested. The events I described are posted on a big white board for all to see.

I like the idea of a known set of coordinates for troops that have not done geocaching. Our troop likes to do survival geocaching where the scouts need to find the boxes for firestarting, food and other nice to have needs when you are dumped out in the wilderness with nothing accept a sleeping bag. It takes time to set up a geocaching course. Barry

>>Is there program experience that one can comment on where the program went back and re-emphasized scout skills as a means to improving patrol leader success?

What ever you teach them, work to make all the instruction consistent between the teachers so that they are role modeling a style of teaching for the scouts. And, since you eventually plan to hand the responsibility over to the scouts, your instruction to the ASMs should be the same one you plan to give the scouts. For example, our troop does something like this for our adults and scout: 1.Introduce yourself. 2.Tell them what you are going to teach. 3.Hold up the resource of what you are going to teach so they know where to find it. (Scout handbook, MB book, other) 4.Demonstrate the skill so that they can see it first. 5.Have them follow along with you if they can the second time you demonstrate the skill. 6.Have them practice the skill as you observe. 7.Sign them off when you are convinced they know the skill. "Important:" Sign off with your full name and dont forget the date. Im not suggesting that use that list, it is only an example of how we teach all our adults and scouts. Try to do something very easy, very basic and very repeatable. Its interesting, but you will find that scouts who have seen this style of teaching repeated through experience will be able to do it themselves when given the opportunity. By the way, we were taught this style back at the old Wood Badge. Barry

Wow Twocubdad, that is a great post and you are right on target. I learned back in college that about 4 percent of the population is natural leaders, or in your words the charismatic leader. But scouting is a program that develops the other 96 percent into leaders as well. I also want to support what you said about the scout craft skills. Done correctly, the first class skills program is one of the best tools for teaching leadership skills. . I have always said that what scouting does so well is develop confidence. It really doesnt matter how skilled you are if you have the confidence to move forward. My SM Minute for this subject is about the fire that started to spread in San Francisco. Several stations were called in so it wouldnt spread to the other parts of the block. But there was so much heat from the fire; the firemen had to back away. About that time one fire truck came fast down the hill passing the other trucks with its sirens blaring and didnt stop until the firemen were close enough to jump out and blast the fire far enough back so the other trucks could pull in. A few weeks later the Mayor presented City Awards of Merit to all the firemen of that truck. When he got to the captain of the truck, the mayor asked if there was anything the city could do to thank the men. The captain replied that a new set of brakes for the truck would be wonderful. Leadership is easy when you can pick and choose the best leaders at the right time, but it takes special leadership when it is thrust on you without planning. Scouting prepares our youth for the day the brakes go out. Thanks Twocubdad Barry

So what I gather you are saying Stosh is that your cherry picking post didn't apply to this thread and you were really starting a new one. OK. By the way, I knew what cherry picking meant, it just didn't make sense to the discussion. Barry

>>Cherry picking your best boys to get special treatment is viewed by all the outsiders as unfair, and a point of conflict for those sitting close on the fence. Without teamwork of the patrols, this problem will always arise in the troop.

Sounds like your Scoutmaster is a really good man Beav. No surprise, I enjoy reading your braggings about your troop, and your son. I also learned quickly to ignore age and because some boys mature faster, or slower, than others. And we once had an 11 year old bicycle racer in our troop, how could I tell him he wasnt qualified to go on a High Adventure bicycle trip in reality, we need him to train us? One other thing that you kind of hinted to is the SM also has to be of some authority for the adults. Just like with the boys, I learned the hard way that adults need to prove themselves as well. We had one adult who didnt feel he had to attend any of our Northern Tier shakedowns and he made our lives miserable. But more importantly, he made his sons trip really miserable. As long as the SM is fair minded with everyone, folks may grumble, but they will respect the decisions. As for the ASMs getting to be the good cops, I didnt get into that side of it, but that is the way it works out. The scoutmaster knows that, but they dont mind because it works to their advantage when the system is used correctly. Barry

Yes, from the scouts perspective, shakedowns are important for training and for finding our physical and mental weaknesses. But there is a bigger issue here and you nailed it, maturity. This is one of those situations where the boys have to learn the lesson. If they dont learn it here, it is going to hurt a lot more later on in life. Who knows if they listened to your wisdom, but that is your job and I know you do it well. Before I became a SM, I was talking to a Scouter whom I respected very much. He was a very successful SM of one of the most boy run troops in our town. He told me once that good SMs usually are a bit of the bad cops for the boys because they dont always say what the scout wants to here. I know when he told me that, I was not going to fit that stereotype and instead I was going to be a good cop. But in the end, well. Scoutmasters are viewed by the scouts as the vessels of wisdom, so there is a certain sting when the SMs words are not the path the scouts want. Good Scoutmasters are more consistent with their guidance because they work from their principles, not their emotions. Good scoutmasters dont see scouts as bad or good, but instead they judge their behavior as inside or outside of scout like behavior, or maturity. The scouts respect that because they see the SMs words as fair and just. They may not like what they hear, but they will respect it. Your two scouts left your meeting disappointed. But since you are the fair minded wisdom of the troop, they likely respected what you said as the truth. Now they have to decide if they are willing to put forth the effort to against their will. If they do, they will have grown from their own initiative and matured a little. And really, that is the way it should be. We adults cant change boys; we can only show them the right path and the reasons why that path is better. They have to decide to change and when they do, it is usually for the rest of their life. That is why this program can be so powerful. I hope they choose correctly. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

No games or tricks here Dan, thats not my style. Apparently you feel the need to belittle folks whom you dont agree to discredit them. You know you can have discussions without being confrontational. For example, if your data is so good, why would confrontation be necessary? I guess we need a psychologist to explain that. Thats OK Dan, you go ahead and attack away, but send me your data on the small conclusive studies so I can research just how non-biased they are. But get ready, if you really know anything about this kind of research, then you also know that your conclusive conclusion is at a lot more risk than I am. Barry

>>Then it won't be hard to cite some evidence that shows this for two-parent families where both parents are the same-sex, from credible, non-biased sources, as aquaticeagle has asked, twice now