Eagledad

>>My personal un-pc view is that our public school system discourages independance, out of box thinking and initiative, so that's reflected in their scouting activities.

This is a very good question and since I dont have the talent of many folks here to be short about and answer, I will throw in just a few comments and go from there. I do like what jblake has written. As a SM, I personally had a lot of goals. But if you added them up in one bag, It would be that I developed the scouts so that if the adults didnt show up to a meeting or campout, the scouts would behave the same. I was trying to put the adults out of a job. As for the boys, we taught them to set goals from the day they came in. When they were learning scout skills, we ask them to set a goal for learning the next skill or set of skills. We asked them to set personal goals of completing task and ranks and build a plan to meet that goal. We started with skills because that is small goal and isnt hard for the scout. As they get in the habit of setting small personal goals, bigger goals become easier. I always laugh when a scout has set a goal of getting the Eagle without a plan of reaching that goal. I never really cared about the scouts goals, that is their plan. I only encourage them to set goals. We also set goals in the PLC. I would sit down with the SPL after he was elected and we would each discuss some things we would like to change or add to the program. From that discussion we would develop a goal or a choice of goals. Sometimes the SPL wanted to discuss the list with his PLC and come up with a goal together. We always have a JLT a couple weeks after election where the PLs are asked to set their goal goal or goals based on the SPLs goals. I sometimes asked the PLs to set goals on each of the eight methods. Simple easy goals, but something that gets the PL to think about improving the Patrol. OK, that is the quick and easy without me getting to wordy. Great Question. Barry

I think being out of the room was fine, but it is important to know what was going on. In fact, being out of the room lets the scouts act in the way they think is appropriate and allows you to see what needs fixing. Your goal is teach them the skills so that the meeting would run no different if you didn't show up that day. You are teaching independence. In my world, the boys do nothing wrong, they just dont know how to do it right yet. So we train them. Also, never give a boy more than they can handle in the next meeting. In other words, dont give a one hour lecture on how to run meetings. He needs only just enough to have the confidence to get started. Then you go from there and build on his experiences. I typically never give more than two suggestions for him to try at the next meeting. I like to meet with the SPL after a meeting and ask him how it went and where we could improve. I usually sat outside the room near enough the meeting just long enough to get an idea of the tone of the meeting. You dont need to hear the whole meeting to see the problems. The number one biggest hugest problem for most newer SPLs is group control. We all go through it, it just takes time to learn how to control groups. I give the SPL a couple ideas to try at the next meeting. Anything from just ask the problem scout to leave to leave the room to remind all the scouts that only one can speak at a time. I had one basic rule for all scouts and adults all the time, "never ever yell". Yelling is a sign of losing control. That rule forces us to learn the skills to control groups. Or in my case, it motivates the scout to ask for help when yelling seems the only way for him to gain control. The other problem for most new SPLs to control meetings is organization. I dont know why, but 90% of SMs dont teach or use agendas. Instead they let the scout run amok the whole meeting by memory and rarely if ever does that work smoothly. Meetings always take rabbit trails and long discussions that distract the SPL. Then they stand there in a long pause trying to remember where to go from there. It is a no brainer for a boy to simply look down and go to the next item on the list. Take two equal scouts running two meetings, give one and agenda and that meeting will always run half as long and under more control. Our scouts at JLTC wrote at least 18 meeting agendas in for days of training. I figured one day that my SPLs probably wrote at least 50 agendas during their six months of leadership. That didnt include other agenda he asked for from other scouts like the campfire and activities agendas. Agendas dont have to be long, just a few lines. I think you are doing OK and your scouts are running into normal problems. You just need to gain the experience of helping scouts work through these problems. But remember these are good problems that you want. Youre here to teach them skills of leadership. If you dont know what is broke, how can you fix it? And just because your troop is boy run and you dont always sit in meetings doesnt mean you arent proactive in learning the problems and fixing it. Giving scouts the skills to be successful is how you build a more solid performing boy run program. And remember, the other scouts learn by watching the older scouts. I used to tell my SPL that even if he didnt need an agenda or need to take notes, do it anyways so the others scouts watching learn from him. Your one problem that I see is that you dont need to work with your outgoing SPL, so you will need to work with the other three scouts at the same time. Maybe you and your SPL can work as a team. I think you can look forward to a lot of great Scoutmastering days a head. I really enjoyed working with the SPL and the PLC in these kinds of situations. They will grow like crazy and you will loose sleep smiling with pride. Ah, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I meant your goals. Boys are in the troop for the adventure. Adults are in it to help boys become men of character. You cant get out of a rut if you dont know where you are going. For example: The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The BSA wants ever part of the troop program to contribute to that Mission. Does your troop program do that? Here is the thing, if you dont have a goal, how do you measure if you are making progress. The BSA has given you a vision or goal for the boys. But that doesnt mean you can't have your own goals to reach those higher goals. I imagine one reason your scouts struggle in planning is because it isnt fun. You could change that by surprising them with a couple of pizzas, and that works at least once. But the important question for you is how does planning prepare a boy to make ethical and moral choices? If you dont know, then maybe you the adult are stuck, not the boys. If the adults dont have a clue, how can the boys do any better? How can they get out of the rut when the adults don't know how planning makes them into better men? I had an agreement with my PLC: If I couldnt show them how "anything" they did in the troop improved their character, they could throw it out of the program. That was as much a challenge to me as it was to them. I had to either throw it out or change everything in the troop so that it in some way developed character. In truth, not much changed at all because the program is pretty good, but I now understood simple things like learning knots and packing a tent develops charactor. Boy run is very important to me because I know how the responsibility of making independent decisions gives a boy the understanding of making the right decisions. Being a good leader of a boy run troop is not instant. It takes time to find your footing and learning what works and what doesnt. But if you dont know where you are going in the first place, you are already stuck in the mud. What do you want to see in your 18 year old scouts? How are you going to get there? I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Have you camped with the troop? For that matter, have you watched a troop meeting? I'm courious why the troop is asking someone that isn't a member of the troop to take over the leadership. Barry

Turning the troop into a backpacking troop is a wonderful way to turn the program into a self-reliance teaching program. I once had a mother donate money to our troop when she realized how well the program worked. Her 18 year old son (not a scout) went to his 14 year old scout brother to learn how to stay dry on the forcasted wet church campout he was about to go on. It was a little thing, but it made a huge impression on her because it was the first time she realized that her son would be OK if left out in the woods by himself. Something most moms fear I guess. Barry

Not bad really, I think you are getting there. But what are your goals? The troop of today shouldn't look like the troop of tomorrow because Scouting is about boys growing into men of character. Boy Run has a purpose in boy growth, if boys are growing, then they are changing which is probably why your COR doesn't like it. Likely nobody has explained it to him in that way. This isn't Cub Scouts, the Troop is the real world scaled down to a boys size. What do you want the 17 year old man in your troop to look like? Folks will not understand a program when they don't see the vision. Barry

Through my years of working with boys, I have witnessed that the adults the scouts respect the most in the area of a relationship with God are adults who role model a moral lifestyle without really exposing their own personal religion. I have seen grown up scouts confess this to those adults later in their life. Its more of an adult problem than a scout problem. An adult who thinks there is hypocrisy in scouting is an automatic red flag that they are not likely a good advisor in this regard. If one adults response is judgmental and sets the boy in one direction, it takes away from his ability to broad minded and find his own answer. All of us wonder about these things now and then, but we must take the approach that its life experiences that give us direction. Its normal and we need to remind scouts that. But we adults tend to want to give instant answers when in reality this is something that takes a long time to understand. There is really no one answer that can fix this scouts dilemma instantly. Instead encourage the young man to watch and listen. Really its best for adults to be passive when it comes to our relationship with the higher spirit. Encourage questions, but never give a direct answer. Instead give them a question that allows them time to think. The scout will respect you for that. The Troop adults job is really simple and only need to be persistent that the morality of the oath and law are not mans creation, but from a higher source. This way the boy can measure the difference between decisions based from an immortal source compared to decisions based from a self serving man. Adults just need to insure troop culture of measuring decisions by the oath and law. And it is important that judging behavior remain consistent for everyone. That way the adults arent the experts in the area and only need to ask the scout how he sees the application of his behavior, or others behaviors compared to the scout law. The adults dont have to come off has experts, in fact respect can go a long way when the adult admits that it something each of us are still learning or pondering. Hopefully the scouts start to filter many of their decisions through the law and oath, and they start to get a better understanding of how life can more fair and less self serving with guidelines based from a higher source. Dont make a big deal out of any of it. You certainly cant be preachy or threatening. I know scouts can have lively discussions in this area as well and the adults just need to encourage civil if not a pleasant dialogue. But if the adults encourage an environment of judging by the law and oath, the boys will not only learn to respect it, they will want more of it. Ive especially seen boys from abusive families embrace the oath and law because it is fair and takes the confusion away from right and wrong. they feel safe in an environment where everyone is judge by the same set of guidelines because they dont get that at home. This kind of went long, by apologies. But it is a good question, as we can always expect from Lisabob. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

The Last Frontier Council has just such a course unless it has changed in the last couple years. It is a two weekend course of outdoor skills where the participants are working out of their pack during the whole course. I can't remember what its called and I have not attended it because I was a little busy at the time for that much additional outdoor training (I was camping 70 days a year at the time). It is considered a very advanced elite outdoor skills course. The instructors are all very experienced and passionate with sticking with a strict syllabus. I never heard anything but rave reviews about, but the last I looked at it, it was starting to struggle with filling the class. My personal opinion was that it was targeting folks out of Wood Badge and many folks are burned out of training at that time. Barry

I would suggest you Not break up the two patrols because you would in a sense be starting over. Its hard enough developing patrol bonding without breaking them up every time the troop becomes imbalanced. Instead you use the existing patrols as a resource for future new patrols. This is the one time that I would use the NSP. I have experienced this very scenario a few times and learned the hard way from the experience. You will be a lot farther a head with the first two patrol staying together and growing stronger. I think you need at least three NSP with 20 scouts to be manageable. I think you need at least two Troop guides per patrol and another ASPL or JASM to help manage work with the TGs them without actually being involved with any patrol. There are several ways of getting the two scouts per patrol, but there is one way we did it that worked pretty good. We assigned an old patrol to work with a NSP. We called them Big Brother Patrols. The NSP would set up their camp near the old patrol. Far enough to have patrol separation, but close enough that the Troop guides can walk over in just a few seconds. The work together the first few months as separate patrols, but in the same groups so that the new scouts have role models to watch. The problem is you have three NSPs and only two existing patrols. If you choose this idea, this might be one reason to only have two NSPs, but you have to understand the work required of working with 10 untrained, undisciplined 11 year old boys. The scouts need to see it coming and understand how to deal with it without yelling and getting frustrated. There are several ways you can approach the 20 new scouts, but everyone needs to understand the future problem of mixing the new scouts into existing patrols later, or if that is even possible. When we have NSPs, we mix the new scouts into existing patrols in about six months. If we need to create new patrols, we ask if anyone in the existing patrols would like to start a new patrol. We also allow the NSP to become a permanent patrol also, but that has never happened. There is usually a couple older scouts that would like to create a new patrol and recruit scouts (new and old) to join their new patrol. That is how you can create new patrols without breaking up the old patrols. But you dont want to do that at the beginning because it requires to much work on the older scout to develop the new scouts up to speed to where the work within the existing patrols. The NSP is the better route in this case. Does that help at all? Barry

>>Best idea keep the new scouts together with an older troop guide

I was the SM Specific trainer for our District for four years and I ran into the very same challenges Kudu mentioned. I also was of like mind with Beav that we couldnt stray away from the subject at hand. There are many important reasons for that, but just staying consistent with the training of other districts was important at the time. We discussed that these courses could not become a lecture about Barry Boy Scout program, or Bobs Boy Scout Program or Carols Boy Scout program. It was the BSAs and we needed to respect that to the fullest possible. I must admit that I was asked to take on the course to make the nine hours more palatable. SM Specific is by far one of the most boring adults courses presented by the BSA. We tried a lot of ideas to make it a better course including using three different very experienced scouters who were also very good presenters to break up the tone during the nine hours. Just having a different voice and face can be a relief. The reason we insisted on experienced presenters was we wanted a lot of actual experience stories backing up the subject lines, and to break up the lecture. And that worked very well. Our district developed enough of a reputation that we were getting a few participants from other districts. It was a bit a struggle not to make comments or criticize some parts of the program and we worked hard to push the BSA intent of each subject. For example I absolutely despise the way the BSA presents the Venture Patrols. Our troop had a very successful older scout program at the time that wasnt a model of the BSA Venture Patrol. Still I presented the subject the way the BSA had it in the text, and then I followed with experiences of our High Adventure Program or Older Boy Program. Truth is while I think the differences in the BSA program and our program is significant in performance, they dont appear all that different in definition. Another area of difference between the three presenters was Uniform. The uniform, believe it or not, is discussed in different context at least three different times through course. But I must admit that while all three of us use the Uniform method a little differently in our programs, the differences were not far enough away from the course text. I also admit I had the Patrol Method section and I didnt fully present it as adults taking such a big part. But here is the thing, we found that 99 percent of the participants dont really care what its called or how it is defined, they want to know how to do it. It doesnt really matter the subject, training, uniform, leadership, Patrol Methods, they really want to hear more about the hows than the whats. Patrol method is very difficult to get in the BSA text, so 20 minutes of how to work with boys goes a lot farther than just reading the text. The number one question that was always asked and complained about in all training is that the BSA doesnt do enough training on is how to work with misbehavior. Misbehavior is perceived as the biggest challenge by many of these folks. So I presented real life scenarios of dealing with Misbehavior in a patrol method application. I did the same thing when they asked about leadership or teaching or planning and so on. I also gave examples of how to combine the eight methods. I also spent a lot of time discussing the boy run part of the SM Handbook text during the patrol method. Its a pretty good place to air out and let participants ask questions. We purposely did not present anything that contradicted the BSA text. In fact we tried to used real life stories to color in a better picture of what the text was trying to say. We had three different leaders from three different units that kept the real life applications in balance and in within the intent of the text. That is how we did it and I think it worked out really well. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I guess it is all relative. I developed the reputation as the most traditional SM in the District. I never really considered that because I was just doing it the way I learned when I was a boy scout. Another SM friend, who was never a boy scout as a youth, called me at work one Monday and asked what his scouts should do on campouts when they get bored with learning scout skills. At first I thought he was joking, but then he explained that he was doing everything that he learned at Wood Badge (old course) and SM Handbook. His agendas were pretty regimented with getting up, eating breakfast, scouts skills activities, eating lunch, more scout skills activities, dinner, Campfire and lights out. I asked him where he fit free time in there. He asked What free time?. I imagine if you asked him at that time if he was running a traditional scouting program, he would say yes because he knew of no other way of doing it. Its all relative. I love this scouting stuff Barry (not Manilow)

>>Has your PLC considered planning fun activities for Sundays?

I can't ever remember the oath and law not being said at any opening, Troop or otherwise. The "retesting" thing is a form politcal correctness of modern scouting and has lost its true meaning and intent from uses like this. The oath and law are the pillars of the ideals the BSA program uses for building the kind of character we want our sons to take with them the rest of their life. Without the oath and law, we are just a camping club. If a boy gets nothing else from the program, he should at least take with him the oath and law. And they get them simply by repeating it at least once every day in the program. Even as adults, most of us can remember the oath and law. Barry

I think ane evaluation is another good source of communication. True, there are the reviews and confrences, but we tend to get in a groove or rut (depending how you look at it) that could leave folks out. We once did something like this for the families so both the parents scouts could rate the troop. We found out that while the scouts were happy with the program, the parents had some questions about the way we did some activities. For example, there was some concern that adults weren't allowed to the PLC meetings. But the policy is any adult could attend if they first called and got permission from the SPL. Most parents didn't know that. Simple fact that needed a better explination. So we got more proactive in explaining why we did things the way we did. Truth is the adults and scouts need to learn how to evaluate each other and their program through reflections, so these kinds of evaluations aren't needed very much. But an evaluation one in great whiles can be a pretty good reflection itself. Barry

>>I personally don't ever want to be SM, I do think it's important for these young men to have a good male role model... I hang around because I think it's also good for these young men to see that a woman can do all the same things they do

>>And if someone woke me up in the middle of the night and asked me to go watch em pee, I would first wonder if they were serious, second if they were high off of anything, and if they insisted I would probably punch them.

Philmont doesn't really have a problem either. It has the appearance of a problem because the scouting community network is broad spreads news really fast. One incident sets off a pretty big alarm. Im trying to remember, but I want to say that they have had only two bear incidents in the last 20 years with only one of those requiring medical attention. Barry

>>NT in Bissett, MB doesn't use bear bags. The trees that far north just aren't big enough to properly hang a bag. So, bear canoes are the norm. You put the food packs on the ground and a canoe upside down over them, away from the tents. Then stack your pots on the canoe. Anyone hears the pots, rally everyone awake to scare the bear off.

I have always wanted to hike the Mid Alantic area, they say the view is unbelievable. I'll give you a call when we head east so you can point us to best spots. I can see that Philmont is quite a jog from your part of the county. I grew up in New Mexico, so its home to me and Philmont is just a day drive for us from Oklahoma. I'd say we are lucky, but I'm not sure Philmont can beat what you already have. There is the Philmont program of course and that is unique. But as far as a great back county experience, hard to beat the Mid Atlantic. Barry

I guess we are all different in our habits, but I was taught a long time ago that shelter always comes first in the wilderness because a person is a lot more susceptible to hypothermia when they are fatigued. I actually saw this happen to a few scouts on a Northern Tier trip and it certainly made me more aware of the risk. Thatis also what is taught at servival schools. Also the odds to me that a bear will wonder through a bunch of loud campers busy setting up their camp is much smaller compared to being caught in an afternoon rain shower. Ironically the BSA Guides on our Pecos backpacking trip werent near as worry about bears as their counterparts are 100 miles away at Philmont. The Frank Rand Staff were very concerned with hypothermia because they had a couple of very serious incidents. But Philmont has 40000 scouts come through every year and they have to worry about public perception of safety, so they have to show an aggressive reaction to incidents. I think their policy is wrong because it doesnt set a good example for boys who will be future wilderness campers, and I told them that. But they explained their marketing situation and I understand. Im not trying to be defensive because I want everyone to think I am a know it all, Im just explaining why I do it this way. Truth is we are only talking a matter minutes either way. But I guess my experience with hypothermia just reinforced what I was taught. And while I have a very deep respect for bears, Ive set up camp in the rain a lot more than I seen a bear even near a camp. So I play the odds I guess. Barry

I found it interesting at Philmont that the crews very first task after reaching a camp is putting up the bear bag. Back county protocol any other place in the world is set up your tent first incase bad weather sets in. But the bear attacks at Philmont motivated the staff to create an aggressive bear policy. They are so serious about bear safety at Philmont that one adult in another crew was pulled off the trail for being caught not following the bear prevention policies. He was warned once and then asked to leave when he contested the policy to the ranger. The ranger left camp and came back with the camp director who was in no listening mood. And yes, we did have staff members walking through a couple of our camps checking that we were following the bear policies. They are very serious about protecting the scouts against bear attacks. As for our experiences, we found skunks wondering through the camp to be pretty convincing. Beary

>>well the benefit i see to a patrol of 1st years is that they would all be on the same page in terms of advancement.

80 to 90 percent of what a boy learns in a hands-on program like Troops is learned by watching other people perform in natural settings. Boys in New Scout patrols learn about 40% as much as scouts in mixed age patrols because the scouts in mixed age patrol have constant role models to watch. Boys in same age patrols only learn when someone (adult or troop guide) come in to instruct them in a school type format. And the boy scout experience is not near as much fun when you have to sit and listen to teachers all the time just to learn simple skills. Its rare to find a good boy run troop that uses same age patrols because the scouts tend to be exclusive and cliquish. In fact, I have personally never seen a good boy run program with same age patrols because it requires to much adult intervention to maintain a minimum level growth at the boy level. However, there are times when a troop has to use a new scout patrol. One is when a troop receives so many new scouts, the existing patrols cant function with the influx. We found a patrol can only handle two new scouts at a time without messing up the dynamics. Barry