Eagledad

>>I have had some of the best scouts, adults and youth from a variety of different program try their best and it doesn't work.

>>I hadn't thought of it in terms of working as a team, but that's basically what we do (and in the future I'm going to emphasize the team aspect

>>but it still isn't going to do much to get the car started if it's out of gas.

>>Boys will be boys, but we are not responsible for perpetuating boys, we are to assist them into mature manhood and appropriate choices in their lives.

>>I gather that some councils are now imposing a minimum hour requirement with National's consent.

Day 2 from Foxnews A 17-year-old Eagle Scout in upstate New York has been barred from stepping foot on school grounds for 20 days for keeping a 2-inch pocketknife locked in a survival kit in his car. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,565520,00.html Matthew Whalen, a senior at Lansingburgh Senior High School, says he follows the Boy Scout motto and is always prepared, stocking his car with a sleeping bag, water, a ready-to-eat meal and the knife, which was given to him by his grandfather, a police chief in a nearby town. But Lansingburgh High has a zero-tolerance and when school officials discovered that Whalen kept his knife locked in his car, he says, they suspended him for five days and then tacked on an additional 15 after a hearing. ---------------- Barry

Hi Buffalo Skipper I try and teach that discipline of behavior is everyones responsibility. In other words, we work as a team. In this case, I ask that the group leader first ask the disrupter to stop with a clear warning they will need to leave the room if they dont stop. No second chances, just get the interference out of the room if they act up again so the activity isnt interrupted. Typically these guys are just seeking some kind attention. If the disruption does continue, the group leader ask the scout to leave and find the SM to explain what happen, resulting in a SM conference. If the problem persists, then the parents get involved. Either the SPL or the SM can asked the scout to call the parents, it just depends who is dealing with the problem. I always make the scout do the call. I dont mind getting the parents involved because we are a team and the parents are part of the team. What you are doing is allowing the leaders deal with the situation within their experience and maturity. That way the leader doesnt loose respect of his leadership responsibility. However, once it goes farther, you give him and out by moving the problem out of the room so the group can continue their activity while the next person up the ladder deals with the problem. The next person up the ladder may be an adult or scout, just depends on the maturity and experince required for the problem. Worst case scenario is the parents have to come to the meeting and stand with their son. Ive seen it go that far only once, and only one meeting. It was a special needs scout who pushed the limits hard, but it worked. The important lesson here is the scouts learn to just move the problem out of their way and deal with it later or let someone else deal with it. I saw this really work well when one of our Scouts was leading a meeting with all the SPLs in the District. When one scout became a problem, our scout just asked him to leave. No confrontation, no yelling, just get out. The observing adults from the other troops were very impressed as well as the SM of the problem Scout. For those that ask what happens when a scout is defiant and doesnt leave, I teach the scouts to back up the leader. I suggest that an SPL should only have to ask a scout to stop once during a Troop meeting. The Patrol Leaders should automatically takeover from there so that the SPL can continue. Always work in numbers so that the leaders dont loose control. What you will see happen is as the scouts mature, they will take on more of these problems and you will see less of them. Hope that was an answer that helps. Barry

>>I wonder what the tone of this thread would be if little Annie had taken the knife to school to cut the cake that Grandma had baked and Nasty little Lad had taken it and killed another student with it? Would we all be asking why she was allowed to take a knife to school? Eamonn

>>I have seen some kids grudgingly do more work when their parents push them, but I don't think I've yet seen one where the parent had a talk with them and they came to the next meeting a changed teenager.

>>I don't think so. To do that would be a travesty. If you want to jade this young man forever, then by all means continue on that path.

>>Our scouts put the annual calendar together from suggestions made by scouts and adults during the course of the year. We also encourage scouts, particulalry older ones to add events to the calendar that they plan and run entirely on thier own to develop planning and leadership (Skiing, skating, caving, biking hikes and other one day activities). To date no one has followed through, but I have one scout now who with a lot of prodding is setting up an additional activity.

>>We never had a no pop rule, we were a backpacking troop, with pack it in, pack it out put a little damper on that.

Thanks

>>Carter arguably merited da prize for the Camp David accords, eh? He successfully concluded a peace between Egypt and Israel which has held for 30 years, something those of us who were around in da 60s and 70s would never have bet on.

The only rule I can think of off hand was requiring uniforms while traveling. Our Troop got rather large and I was told a large group of boys running around a Quick Stop can be quite intimidating for a store clerk. A uniform shows adults are responsibile for which boys. The way we solved the soda pop problem was the PLC restricted pop to only one meal and only from two liter bottles. Strangely, and I don't know why, but patrols almost quit bringing soda pop altogether. Barry

>>Why don't we stop debating if NSPs work or not and just deliver the program we promised to deliver?

Well I just read this subject and I think I'm the guilty party. Hard to tell since that discussion was a few days ago. Still, my apologies to skpetic and all for the tone of my post. I will try and do better. I do think tones and attitudes have changed on how folks carry discussions on forums. Part of it is I kind of feel like we are bit of family, so forgetting many folks may be reading on the forum for the first time, we develop bad habits. I also find that I'm trying to write 10 minutes worth of a response in two minutes because I in the middle of something else and I don't take the time to reread what I've written. So I will try an slow down and consider the impact of the tone as well as the intent. Have a great day all. Barry

>>Even with that, however, we would still be realigning the patrols by about 40% after 6 months, so in a way, it is only delaying the inevitable. It suggests a now or later scenario.

This is a tough spot. You know I am a big proponent of mixed age patrols and not fond of NSPs. But experience has proven that existing patrols more than two to three new scouts tend to loose the cohesion that has been developed in the patrol. So this is a situation where I would consider a NSP. But you already mention that is not a very good option this year. Here is the thing, the BSA looses more boys in their first six month of a troop experience than any other time and any other age group. The reason is the scouts loose the trust that the boys near their age can safely lead them in scouting activities. Or, their experience is so regimented by adults that they arent having any fun. You will know within a few weeks after summer camp whether you will keep those scouts. Also keep in mind that when a troop gains sudden surge of new boys that is about 40% or above the troop size, the troop program is basically starting over, especially if you dont prepare everyone for the changes that a coming. It is very very important that the troop adults convey they understand the challenge to the new parents and are working hard with the PLC to ease the transition for ALL the scouts. Even the most experienced scouts will struggle because the new scouts are undisciplined and out of control. Its as hard for them if not harder than for the adults. The dilemma for troops is keeping the adults close enough so the new scouts still feel some security of safety while at the same time keeping them far enough away that the scouts can develop their own independence and freedom to enjoy scouting. I found that if a scout wants to stay even after the first six months, you have a lot better chance of making changes without loosing them. This is why we move the new scouts out of a NSP into existing patrol around six months if we used a NSP that year. I dont have the perfect answer for your situation yet, but I think you need to preplan how your adults and your scouts that they have to will work together to make sure the new scouts are comfortable with the program. I found that the new scouts boy leaders should always be the point of contact for the new scouts. If for what ever reason the observing adults feel something needs to be conveyed to a new scout, the adult goes through the boy leader so that the new scouts observe that adults trust the boy leader. The adults need to keep their distance. Close enough so the new scouts can find an adult if they have to, but far enough away that their experience is pretty much boy run. As the new scouts get more comfortable, the adults should get farther away to even just disappearing for awhile. It wont take that long if everyone is working together. What you are doing here is weaning the new scouts away from their idea that the adults are responsible for their experience even though they call it boy run. They need time to develop confidence in their boy leaders and even the program itself. Our Troop kind of works the same way as Stoshs, but Im different in that I would not add new patrols least six months after receiving new scouts unless your new scouts only make up about 10 to 15% max of the troop total. Im not in favor of killing patrols at all. Since you have a relatively small troop, I think it is fair to prepare all the scout and adults to working as a team to welcome the new scouts and work to get them up to speed in the troop program. I know that isnt a simple answer, but it is a complicated challenge. A good challenge however. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>To be honest, most kids will somewhat instintually know EDGE, even if they never heard of it. Why? Because the same concept, usually labeled "scaffolding", has been standard in the education field for forty bazillion years.

>>Not to hijack the thread......but mentioning longer school day.....who would be willing to work four 10 hour days in return for a three day weekend? I would.

>>The best change that I like is that rank advancement sign offs are just in one place

>>The pack is still functional, but the bars have a tendancy to start to pop out.

>>Until a uniform is required to be a member, requiring a uniform for any BOR is adding to the requirements.

>>(I turn 55 tomorrow and find myself thinking a LOT about mortality and how best to spend whatever remaining days I have left).