Eagledad

Of course you all are right in most cases, but I remember when Lisabob brought up the problem of the adults not letting the older scouts camp or hike by themselves. If I remember correctly, it wasn't so much a matter of trust, but a matter of parents having an excuse to go camping or hiking. Add that the SM is indifferent to the boys needs and adults needs, I think this is a different and more difficult problem. As was said by the other poster, the adults are not stating their goals to the scouts very well, so there is confusion. But when you have a SM who doesn't have goals, then it turns into a "whatever feels good at the moment" kind of program. Until a single leader stands up and says this is where we are going and this is how we will get there, the troop will coast in what the adults wants at that moment. Lisa needs to become the SM. Barry

>>but there is a fear that I am too serious about the job to lead..

What do you mean by support him? In the big world, his misleadership should be enough for the rest of the patrol to not support him back. If they do, then this is an indicator of a bigger problem with the patrol method. As for the scout, did he grow at all in his position? There hopefully is something to salvage there that can be used to push him to reach a little higher in his future scouting experience. I have had some scouts who just don't seem to care or react to counseling of their performance. I remember one such scout who told me during his Eagle COH that he earned the Eagle because I kept pushing him to reach just a little higher. I certainly didn't think that because I remember most of our talks seemed like events of frustration to me. I honestly never felt I reached him. But he did manage to earn the Eagle, I credit his dad. The thing is that scouts who make huge strides in growth tend to overshadow those who make very small steps a little at a time. Leadership may not be your scouts best attribute, but he may also turn into a civic leader one day because his experience in scouting give him someplace to start. I think because you care so much about him you are likely doing ok. Im not sure what you mean by support, but if you just keep presenting him with opportunities that give him those little steps forward, who knows what he might say about you at his Eagle COH. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

>>As a Scoutmaster, I view my main job as making sure these crazy scouts don't hurt themselves.

>>While I would hope not to judge others, it seems a little daffy that we would not allow two loving parents to join our organization, but have no problem allowing a guy who out and about cheating on his wife. If we really do believe in living by the golden rule? How would we feel if we were being discriminated agains

Well, Ive been there and done that and personally I think you have done a pretty good job so far. Good Work. A few thoughts as best as I can reflect: Just be careful the goals are realistic. Even though a good Scoutmaster instills a scout to envision that kind of scout he can become, the Scoutmaster has to resist giving the scout the scoutmasters vision. We must instead guide the scout to set and reach his goals. One small step forward is better than two steps back. Many adults get hung up on the scout not making progress toward the big goal when the small steps are big for some boys. From our perspective, he may infact just never show much growth in working with other people or delegating. Or he may just be biting off too much too fast at the moment. Again, keep up the small positive growths because anything is better than nothing just like at takes a lot of small step to reach the mountain top. Imagine where this young man would have been without his Den Chief and Troop Guide experience. He does have something to brag about. You didnt mention the parents, but can they help you in accomplishing some small victories? I have worked with a few scouts just like this, but I was surprised once when the Council had their Annual Review of the Council for all the Districts officers. The Council Executive started the meeting with a letter he just received. In that letter, the mother explained that her son was very smart, but very awkward and struggled to make friends. In fact even struggled with teachers who seemed to not care much for him. The only place her son felt comfortable was in the Boy Scout Troop where he was not only accepted, but was a Patrol Leader. She just wanted to make sure that the SE knew that Scouting does work. Well, that scout was in our troop and your scout sounds just like him. I agree with you that maybe he should have been pushed a little earlier to be more active in his patrol. But I think what is important is that you help him make positive steps at his pace and maturity. In fact, I think you have been doing just that. Its hard work, I know. But just keep pressing on with that little bit of pressure and you will one day few rewarded. Both of you will grow from this experience. What you are learning now will be applied to the next scout in similar circumstances. I love this scouting Stuff. Barry

Hey the Who are like what, 100 years old. They did manage to hit some high notes that surprised me. Im really glad they didnt have any wardrobe malfunctions. Ewuuu I like the Betty White add the best, but I agree this wasnt one of the better years for commercials. Game was OK, but we didnt have a dog in the fight, so we just ate a lot of good food. I had to ride my wifes stationary bike after because I felt guilty. Barry

>>BSA's policy is going to force alot of Scouters to either starve or not be able to go on trips w/the sons.

My troop did this when I was a youth with chickens and turkeys. We also did a hog, but that really turned into the adults doing it. I don't know what the BSA would say about it, but we really enjoyed it and it is a very good learning experience and a real good confidence builder. I do know that folks raise rabbits just for eating, so I'm sure you can find them as well. You might check with a Chinese restaurant to find a source. I think that was where our adults found them. Personally I think cleaning and skinning a rabbit is easier than the chicken and someone could use the fur for tanning. That used to be a Merit Badge. Oh, how did we kill them, grab them by the head and yank hard. Also get the right chickens, for cooking and I would say one chicken feeds at most three hungry scouts. Hope you guys can get it worked out, the boys will have a lot of fun and stories to tell. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I have sent a couple in the last few weeks. I sent one to Beavah, Old Grey Eagle and Scoutdad.

>>Scoutmaster is no little thing, and is far more than what you think you are signing up for. For me, the best Scoutmasters have big hearts, a well-developed sense of fun, a nose for adventure, the ability to give and get respect, an almost unquestioning dedication to both the program and the Scouts, and a sense of how to hang back and let the boys lead without interference from him/herself or other adults. They need to play the role of teacher, of taskmaster, of gatekeeper, of mentor, of public relations man, of referee, of car driver, and of parent, and a million others on top of that.

My observation is a little different, but then I started as a CM and ended as SM. I fully agree that the job of CM is completely different than the SM. A good CM is very hands on with the boys while a good SM is very hands off. That is a big shift, but not hard if the SM has a vision. Strangely, I think the adults who are a bit of an attention seeker make a pretty good CM but make a horrible SM. I think adults who have a bit of the clown or entertainer make are good CM qualities, but again horrible qualities of a SM. A good CM has to be Johnny on the spot because there is always a scout who didnt get his award. The SM is the opposite and must learn to sit on his hands because he/she trains the scouts to be the Johnny on the spot and the SM wants to see how they handle it. I have worked with hundreds of SMs and I dont think you can know how good they will be before they start because there is such a learning curve at the beginning. However, I have found that the ones who start out with both feet running typically had a good boy scout experience as a youth. Not always the case, but in general those guys have a big advantage because they remember the fun side of scouting, not just the business side. Barry

I'm seeing the parent managing thing and need to reply, I don't think we managed parents that much. I think it was because because they are always informed. If they had a specific need like money or information of activities, they usually went to that person in charge of that task. If they needed some information about their son, they typically talked to one of us after the meetings. However, we tried an idea that kind of worked. We had one of our senior scouts meet the ASMs every week to brief them on what happened at the PLC meeting. Our PLC meetings were a half hour before each Troop meeting. The Senior scout was also the goto guy for the adults when they had questions of program. I guess the scout was kind of our Parent Manager, except that he mainly worked with the ASMs. You might give that a try if you have a scout mature enough to deal with that many adults. These were usually are 17 years olds who had done that and been there many times. Barry

Good questions. I have two meetings a year after each election where at least one of the parents is required. That is where I spend about a half hour explaining the program and a little bit about the next six months. Its mostly a Aims and Methods kind of meeting explaining how it all works. It is intended to help everyone understand we expect from the scouts and what they can expect from us. This I found answers a lot of questions from parents who have questions about how the program works, but for some reason hasnt asked. Advancement is always a topic of new parents. I spend most of the time with parents while the scouts are loading and unloading the Troop trailer before and after campouts. The scouts know what to do, so the adults stand back and wait. I usually spend the time bragging about their sons, and sometimes passing over a behavior issue or something. It would be rare that a parent learned something they didnt know about their son in the troop. I keep no secrets because I believe we are team working together, so I like the parents to know where their son is at in the troop. That is basically how I managed some communication with drop off type parents. Between the two meetings a year and picking up their son from a campout, I actually got to talk with them quite a bit. I typically spend at least 50% of my time on campouts with the parents. Usually around the fire, but the troop is boy run and I typically worked through the SPL. Thats just my style. If we adults are watching the scouts during an activity; I usually stand with the adults when Im not required for part of the activity, which is usually the case in our program. I especially like standing with the new parents to help them understand what is going on and how it all work. Which reminds me, we also require new parents come to the first three meetings after their sons join the troop. During this three visits, they will get to watch a PLC meeting, patrol meeting and a Troop Committee meeting. I spend as much time as I can with them explaining how the boy run program works, but a lot of my time is spent with Scout Concferences and SPL conferences. So our new scout ASM spend most of the time with the new parents. I didnt start out this way, I just found through many frustrating situations and phone calls that the more informed the parents are about their son and the program, the easier my job was with the boys and program dynamics. While boy run sounds simple for most folks, I believe it is very complicated and works best with the cooperation of all the families. Barry

Hi Jane There is no easy way to answer the questions without knowing the program. Honestly, Five POS could easily run a troopof 25 scouts, so more information would help. But not allowing a scout to give up some responsibilities doesn't really make sense, so there is some questions. What hasn't been mentioned, but was hinted, is how agressive the less agressive scout really is. Its always difficult to understand if a parent is pushing harder than the the program is designed, or just concerned with a program that is not giving each scout a fair chance. Assuming your a mother concerned with the program, Lisabob has some really good advice. Also, as a SM, I let the scouts determine POS that need to be filled and who needs to fill them. Scouts need to earn the position, not get it because it is their turn to advance. That being said, I alway found responsibilities for any scout who was looking for some experience and time to prove himself. If the less agressive son really wants some responsibility, he needs to watch for opportunities like leading the fund rasier, lead the troops monthly service project or help plan and lead the next Court of Honor. These kinds of jobs don't require a lot of time and skill, but it gives the scout some practice and exposure so the other scouts can see him at work. If this is to some degree an effort of helping your son advance, you may not find a troop program to your sons satisfaction. Work with your son to talk with the SM and see where that goes. I think that converstaion will answer most of your questions. Good luck to your and your sons. Barry

I learned through the years that the Scoutmast should spend 50% of his time working with the parents. I teach that at scoutmaster training. Barry

One year we had 20 tigers that were very good friends. We decided to break them up into two dens because that was theoretically the right thing to do. My son was in that group. They hated it and reminded me about it over and over for the next two years. Well come their Webelos year, I retired as the CM, combined both dens and became their Webelos leader. I felt it was the least I could do since they put up with the split for two years. Everyone was happy again except me because at that time 16 boys was a lot to plan for. I was also a very active ASM of a fairly young troop at the time. So what I did was break them up into two groups during many of the activities. We met as one group, did the opening and things like that, then they broke into two manageable groups for the activities. It worked out real well because we always worked on two different activities at the same time. Each group would work on one activity for about 20 minutes, then switch. The boys never got bored because they were moving all the time. I recruited two full time assistant leaders who manage the meetings and we "Required" at least two parents to help plan and run the activities. The parent actually enjoyed it because with as many boys as we had, they only had to plan and run one activity a year. I think how you split (or not) scouts has a lot to do with the personalities of the boys and their parents, but it can be done so that it doesnt overwhelm the leaders. I wish you luck, but if you do it right, it will be a lot of fun for everyone. Barry

I agree they are ugly, expecially the Eagle Patch. However, they will be big collectors items in a few years. Barry

>>I hate to break the news to you, he goes there Monday - Friday. It's called school. And some of us pay to send them there.

I agree ACCO, but the other difference I didn't mention between Eagle Mills and other troops is Eagle Mills tend to push the methods on the group where as boy run programs push them on each scout depending on the method they are weak at the time. The Eagle Mill SM will tell all the scouts at once how they should dress. The Boy Run SM will leave it up to the SPL and PLC to enforce. The SM then will work with the scouts who struggle with their choice of how they decided to use the uniform. Not because of looks, but because of their choice. When the methods are enforced at the boy level, each boy will need difference guidence depending on their needs at the time. Barry

Troop programs are defined by how the adults interpret and/or apply the eight methods that BrentAllen listed. I can give you a simple example of just how two adults could have two different programs, I don't agree with about half of how BrentAllen defines each method. Its not that one of us more right than the other, its how our lifes experiences define each method to be used for our personal interpretation of scoutings goals and vision. For example, I would never use badges and inspection to define how I applied the Uniform Method while I was SM. I used it to drive character development in the sense of making decisions. Just in the choice of wearing the uniform to a scouting event forces the scout to make a moral choice. Scout Growth to me is a scout purposely learning how to use the Scout Law and Oath while learning from his experiences. However, I am sure that other adults achieve the same growth in their scouts in their different applications of the same methods. But you can see how easily the discussion could get complicated. The main reason many adults focus on Advancement as a method of their program is they are looking for an easy and quick way to measure the success of their program. Of all the methods, Advancement and uniforms are the easiest method to measure performance of a program because it only requires listing the number of badges and advancements gained over a short period of time of just looking at the scout. Im not sure that we as a group could come up with a consensus of a successful Patrol Method or Adult Association, but we certainly could start bragging about first class scouts and Eagles. How often do we hear a troop come back bragging about the number of badges their scouts brought back with them. The interesting thing about Eagle Mills is they tend to be very successful troops. They typically are the larger troops in the area and also typically have a lot of active adults in the district as well as the troop. A boy run troop could be an Eagle Mill if the boys wanted, but boys typically dont enjoy advancement resulting in a program that doesnt use advancement as the primary means of planned activities. Eagle Mills typically are very adult run because they have the authority over the direction of the activities. This is not to say that Eagle Mills dont use the other methods, in fact they typically push all eight methods hard. For example Eagle Mill type programs are typically the best uniformed and sharpest looking scouts in the area. Most adults cant even recite the eight methods because, well because its boring. I had two troop meetings a year while I was SM where I required the parents as well as the scouts attend. I recited both The Three Aims and the Eight Method at those meetings and I spent a few moments explaining how our program used each one of them toward scout growth. I even required the PLC to give me a set of goals based on each method for the next six months, and they were asked to plan an activity for each Method to be performed at each campout. Even after doing all that, Im not sure there was another adult in our program that could recite even half the eight methods. They like the way I led the program, so they didnt really care to memorize something that was pretty much boring to them. So that is the challenge of the BSA. Interpreting the methods as well as applying them kind of comes down to the effort of each adult. New adult leaders generally start with programs that are heavy in Advancement and Uniform because that is easy to see. Where they go from there is generally a function of their vision, if they have one. Barry

I rarely called the other scoutmaster nor do I remember one calling me when scouts changed troops. You are right that it would be a courteous, I just don't remember feeling one was needed from either troop. I did talk to scouts to find out why they left or joined our troop, just never occurred to me to call the other SM. I once warned a SM of an adult who left our troop for his. He made the same call a year later to the next SM that the adult eventually transfered into. Barry

>>At Boundry Waters and Quetico the Rangers on both sides of the boarder appreciate the tons of garbage that the boys bring back from BWCA. Not to mention the numerous times boys have added a lost or injured paddler.

We are fortunate to have enough troops in our area that most families can find a troop near them that meets their taste. I didnt really have much trouble with GAHillBillys list except a question about the scouts discussions in tents: How does he know? I guess it bothers me because we once had an adult who actually set up her sleeping bag next to her sons tent late at night so she could listen to the discussions. Short story is that she was asked to leave three troops before she and her son gave up scouting. But Im not sure any parent should or could listen to such discussions from their sons of the boy scout age. Bullying is an interesting topic because it seems to come up a lot now in this forum. Is that a sign of the times? In my years of scouting I came to believe that the general personality of the Scouts is a direct reflection of the adults. So this bullying thing is a little bothersome to me. Its not that I believe the adults are bullies, quite the opposite. My fear is the adults are so over protective now that they arent acting or reacting normally with the boys. My hope is that this issue is more of a forum issue than a general problem. I think a list of troops that give parents a general Opinion of units is OK. When I was CM, I gave my Den Leaders a list of my five favorite troops that rated from very boy run to very adult run. That was about it as far as detail, but it allowed the parents to choose the program most comfortable for them. We were lucky to have a good variety of troops in our area. Barry

we've never had trouble, but we have seen other troops leave a campground pretty messy. Our scouts cleaned it up. Our PLC had a policy that we volunteer to do some kind of service project when we used their campground. They never turned us down. Barry