Eagledad

>>Solutions? Perhaps something to encourage packs to treat Webelos as more of a special program and to encourage specialized Webelos den leaders who stick with that program. If national wanted to make a really bold move, perhaps Webelos could be made a separate unit. Or attached to Boy Scout troops instead of Cub Scout packs.

Im a pretty open and critical of the parts of BSA programs that I don't think work very well with our youth and how they keep scouts in the program. I am not a fan of the Tiger program or the Venture Patrol program. I have been a Webelos leader, District Membership Chairman and a Member of the Council Training committee. My nature (also my job) is analyzing and deveoping solutions to improve those things I analyze. That is what I do. Of the 16 Webelos in my last den, all 16 crossed over into troops and 12 became Eagles. I preface all that to say I believe the Webelos doesnt need any real changes to get more boys to cross over into troops. I think it does a pretty good job for what it is desgined to do. Dens that dont have a good cross over rate where generally not run as the BSA suggest. Ive stated several times before that less than 50% of Webelos cross over into troops, but the major cause for that are Webelos Leaders who dont follow the program. The number one major cause for that is adult leader burnout. There are a lot of things that can be done to help the crossover numbers, but I personally dont think changing the Webelos program is the solution. It works pretty well. Barry

I guess I was looking at Lisas point a little different. I thought she was saying that the Scoutmaster, Cub Master or the master of any of organization are viewed as the got-to-guy (person) simply because of the title. It doesnt matter if it is a boy run, adult run or even run by sheep herders, when folks need to say something urgently, they will likely go to the one person they think is required to listen and act on their need, and that probably isnt fair. I agree it isnt fair, but I think a person in those positions needs to understand it. My story was only emphasizing that point, a mother who was so emotionally upset needed to let someone know and understand the situation as she saw it. She sought out the one person she felt was required to listen and had the authority to make changes. In her emotional state, I dont think she put much thought to it at all, in her mind at the time she needed to find the one person to resolve her pain. Im convinced that she had no plan to let me have it like she did because she waited until all the other parents had left, but when she approached me, but her emotions got the best of her. As for conflict management, I was trained in my conflict management course that there are times when emotions require the best action to be no action until the parties involved can have a calm discussion. That is what we purposely did. There was no conflict because there was no reaction to the emotion. Barry

>>But, as unfair as this sometimes is, isn't that kind of the nature of the position? The "buck" has to stop somewhere in the program when it comes to making tough decisions and acting on them.

>>As to governments requirin' purchase of a product, seems like that's what my state (and many others) do with auto insurance, eh?

>>Afterward, however, I had second thoughts, and decided I would not do that again, as in my opinion, it clearly violated the intent of the "no alcohol" policy in the G2SS.

HI Scoutfish Let me preference this response by saying that a student of the bible doesnt have to be a Christian, Jew or even religious. That being said, Ive not heard very many students of the bible make the claims you make, which suggest to me that you are not a student of the bible, just making some points you base from what youve heard. The bible claims that God is all knowing, all present and powerful. As a Christian, how can you conclude that God couldnt guide men to write His words as He wants us to read them? Ive not heard by, students of the bible, that the bible is full of contractions. In fact, one of the many powers of the bible is its consistency between the old and New Testament. And finding new meaning from past reading isnt contradiction, its called maturity and wisdom. You see it in the scouts as they grow using the Scout Law. I have not asked others to follow my beliefs in this discussion; Ive only stated what those beliefs are. If you and other folks feel intimidated by those beliefs, I can only conclude its from ignorance of your emotions. I can easily reference my belief to a source that is as close as their computer. Its much harder to do that with emotion. Its just like I was trying to say with Lisa, a person who obeys all traffic laws only has to point to the law to justify their behavior. A person who breaks the law because they think it is OK can only point to their emotional logic to justify their action. If it feels good do it, right. As a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you can condemn homosexuality because the bible condemns it, so dont be afraid of that. But I understand what you are attempting to say: God says we are not to judge each other. But God never says we are not judge in either the Old or New Testament. The only thing God says we cant judge is our eternal salvation. Only He gets that privilege. Your examples are being used out of context. Eye for an eye, plank in your eye, cast the first stone and many others are lessons to judging justly and fairly. They arent saying not to judge at all. And lets think about this judgment thing from a practical standpoint for a moment, shall we. It is literally impossible to not judge ones behavior. I would guess that average person makes at least one moral judgment every hour of the day. If nobody judge, we would live in chaos and anarchy. In fact, the difference between man and animals is the personality we develop from guided judgment. Without moral judgment, we would only react by our animal instinct. Judgement is required for a civil society. So the best you could really say is you dont base your judgment from God, but instead from your emotion or instinct of that moment. Your example of casting the First Stone is a popular example by many trying to shut down an intellectual discussion of moral judgment, but you and those others always seem to leave the part where Jesus followed by saying Go and Sin no more. It seems there has to be a sin to forgive to start reconciliation. So it is interesting to me that you keep claiming you are a Christian yet, you disregard those things that guide us to be a Christian. My confidence in my faith as a Christian seems to challenge you enough that you don't want to be associated with my faith and yet, I am only a Christian. I am not questioning your faith of lack of it, but at some point your emotional justification is going to lead down a path of confusion or personal confrontation. Its no big deal to spend a little time in the word to find out just what it means to be a Christian. A little more time reading might lead you to a better understanding of being Christian or if the that is really the faith you want to follow. So bringing this back to the homosexual discussion, I am curious of you and Lisa and others to which I want ask: if from some strange event in your personal life you came to believe homosexuality is morally wrong, just how do you think it would change your behavior right now. What is it about that possibility that scares you so much? And dont use the judgment thing because your judging me harder than I am of gays. Barry

Since the alcohol is burned off in the cooking, I don't see it different from any other spice and would treat it that way if asked. Barry

>>So Barry, if I understand your arguments, they are essentially that 1) There is a written rule (in the bible) and people ought to follow this written rule, and

>>I just think it narrows the definition when "morally straight" is de facto connected to morality as defined in a judeo-christian model.

>>Barry, I wonder what you say to people who are not Christian and who, therefore, do not follow the same religious text as you do?

Intesting. Scoutfish suggest that immorality changes with time and cultures and that makes homosexuality OK, for now I guess. I half agree with Scoutfish, immorality does change over time, but morality does not. Morality is a gift from God and his word hasnt changed through time or cultures. If one reads the bible, they learn that God says sin is a self-serving act that generally leads to corruption in one way or another. Homosexuality is one of those sins. Trying to convience folks that they are smarter than God rarely changes a mind. Maybe trying to understand why God says homosexuality is immoral would make a better discussion. Barry

That was a really good article, thanks guys. Its interesting how much the manufacturers have caught on to lightweight backpacking, there is a lot more choices now than just seven years ago. Our crew typically weighed in with packs between 20 to 25 pounds, so I am very impressed with this writer. There are few comments: One of the problems with Philmont is the cost. While it seems expensive just paying the BSA for the experience, the gear can triple the cost for the first timer. Our troop made an art form of light weight backpacking on a low budget. When I look at the pictures of that article, I was impressed already by the non-uniform dress of the crew. Its an experience the first day of the trek to see all the crews together waiting for the bus that will take them to the trail head. That is also where everyone gets to watch the pack weigh in of each backpacker. One of the first things we notice is how some crews are in identical dress even down to the backpacks and trekking poles. Come rain and you see identical rain gear and pack covers. Those were also the crews where we saw 120 pound boys with in with 60 pound packs. That is half the boys weight. I remember watching the face of the ranger responsible for that crew. I could tell this wasnt the first time he had a crew like this, but it still was going to be very challenging. Im not saying that a crew that dresses a like or in uniform is wrong, but it tends to expose where the crew did or didnt put a lot of focus. We were always picking up poles and giving them back to the scout who dropped them a head of us when we met at camp. You will not be looked at badly if your crew does not look uniform. Getting back to cost: the writer of the article gave some great tips for light weight clothing and gear. The problem was much of the gear he suggested was new and expensive. His advise to get pants with liners is a good one because you dont need to take underwear. But you might save a lot with a pair of athletic shorts or hiking shorts with liners at an outdoor store like Academy that we have here in Oklahoma, or even Walmart.. Half our crew gets the zip off legs pants, but you can save 30 bucks by not getting the higher end gear. If you can afford it fine, but most boys families arent ready for that cost. As for long pants, many of the wind protector pants at Walmart are cheap, lite and waterproof. Did I say cheap? And they typically have the snap up or zip up legs so they are easy to throw on and take off. Shirts are the same thing. I have noticed that Academys store brand sport shirts are half the price of the higher end gear. Those are great shirts because they have the roll up sleeves and for another five dollars, and you get the shirt with UV protection. Our crew typically took two shirts, one long sleeve and one short sleeve. But some of the guys used their long underwear top for long sleeve if they ever needed it to be warm. Then there is the footwear. I agree with the writer that running shoes are fine for Philmont because the trails are so smooth, but we still suggested a boot for ankle support for our guys. That being said, I always had a couple scouts who just wore running shoes and did fine. However, were we did not want boys to save money was on socks. Socks do to things that are very important, keep your feet dry and prevent blisters. Actually one causes the other, but we asked every scout to bring two pairs of hiking socks with two pairs of liners. Now I want to say and everyone will agree that none of this gear should have any cotton. Cotton holds moisture and moisture is the cause of feet problems and hypothermia. That being said, most of our scouts usually brought at least one cotton t-shirt. It wasnt a problem because they also brought at least one non-cotton shirt if needed. But for some reason, they needed a t-shirt that gave them some kind of identity I guess. We asked everyone who saw a sale on any kind of backpacking clothing or gear to announce that sale at the troop meetings for all the other scouts. You would be amazed that Walmart always has non-cotton clothing on sale. Same goes with backpacking gear, there are a lot of sales on the internet. Our troop had a back exchange, when a scout out grew his pack, typically around age 14, he would bring it up to the troop meeting to sell it, or even donate it. My two sons and I donated three packs. Boots are the same, some boys feet grow so fast that they hardly have any time in them at all. You have to be very careful about fit and wear, but some boots are worth handing down. If a troop starts helping scouts to buy their gear a year or two out, it will be a lot easier on the parents budget. And the gear can be used over again as well. My sons and I had a box just for our high adventure gear and clothing. I still use some of that gear that is, well Im not going to tell you how old some of that gear is. Its not as bad as it use to be because there is so much cheap gear and clothing that reduces the weight without sacrificing comfort. But even still we have to think what luxuries we might be willing to carry: A book, fishing pole, or even that cell phone. For me it was a camping chair. After a long hot day of backpacking, I just hated the thought of sitting my wet sweaty body on the hard dusty ground. Even worse, Philmont is an active cattle ranch, so it is likely that you will camp where a heard of cows have camped before you, if you know what I mean. So I gladly carried a 30 ounce camping chair without any regrets. Just about everyone will bring something that isnt really required for the trek. Its just a matter of not bring several of those items. And when I think back of why I was closer to the 25 pound side, I always carried and extra pair of socks or some medication for flu, stomach or just plan soreness for the other scouts. I know, I know, but it seemed like there was always one scout that got careless of cocky, or started with a fever or cough. I am not suggesting that every adult do that, I guess it was just the weight of the little bit of the dad in me that I was willing to carry. This is a fun discussion folks. I look forward to seeing others contribute more advise or even stories to this topic. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

There are some good responses, but even getting the scouts more involved and invested in the project won't always work, sometimes the scouts aren't willing to give what it takes to make such things happen. We talk here like it just boys being boys because the adults didnt handle it right, but when you work at the District or Council level, you are awakened that adults are just as bad. I don't think it is an age thing. While there are good lessons here for everyone, the SPL, PLC and the SM owe at least a word of thanks and maybe even an apology for all the effort that was put in by the volunteers. We complain about burnout and how thankless volunteering can be, this is where someone can learn at an early age of how to be understanding and compassionate to those who may be disappointed by their decisions because of the time they invested. Its not like just flipping a switch and everyone is OK with this decision, people put a lot of themselves into making things like this successful. There is disappointment to say the least. Just because the scouts arent considered adults by age doesnt mean they arent mature enough to experience being appreciative to those who invest their time and resources for them, no matter how the process was handled. We had a troop do a program like this for our district and it was a big success. Several of the other troops ask that troop to teach them how to do their own survival weekend. Its to bad this troop didnt buy into it. Barry

I think a 30 degree bag is fine. Long underwear can make up for a really cold night. Hiking poles are cumbersome because they are just two more things to keep up with and add more weight to carry. They are a blessing for hikers with bad knees and I would advise adults do a few long hikes at home to see if they have that problem. But I find scouts dont use them correctly because they dont feel the advantage polls give. I agree with the idea of loading up a pack and hiking around with it. I think two or three mile neighborhood hikes are fine to get the body in shape for the weight, but the scouts must do at least two if not three longer overnight hikes to really get a sense of carrying weight on a hiking trail. Your son is at the age and his trek is far enough away that he could outgrow his pack and boots, so watch that. Personally I dont think Philmont trails require the most expensive boots. Many of the Philmont rangers just wear tennis shoes or even hiking sandals. A boot with a firm sole is about all that is required and can be found for a lot less than $100. But as far as fitness goes, I found that most active kids are fit enough for Philmont, its generally the mental fitness that seems to make scouts struggle. We ask our scouts to run 3 miles three times a week for cardio fitness of the mountains, but you would be surprised who seem to have the fitness problems. We had the most trouble with the very athletic most fit scouts. Philmont backpacking is really is a mental thing that should be watched during the practice hikes. Watching the hundreds of scouts at Philmont, I find that overloaded packs are by far the main cuprites of misery for most scouts. I would suggest that your troop practice lightening up, even make a contest of who can pack the lightest. No pack should weight more than 30 pounds before water, food and crew gear. And really 25 pounds is a much much much better. That five pound is a huge difference in comfort and fatigue because food, water and crew gear will add a minimum of 15 pounds. Some of the more experienced backpackers just bring 20 pound packs. Thats why I say if you dont have bad knees, saving the weight of hiking polls by leaving them home gives most scouts a better advantage. Also, when buying a pack, less experienced backpackers tend to pack until the pack is full. So, dont go buy the biggest pack out there. Smaller packs are lighter and they force the packer to leave bulk at home. My first pack was gigantic compared to my next pack that was a 3rd smaller even though I was going on longer hikes. To make it even more fun for your son, get him more involved by researching gear and backpacking techneques. This will give him something to do for the long wait until the summer of 2011. Barry

>>The BSA still doesn't behave like the private club it insists it is

>>Just because you have a legal right to do something doesn't make it "right." Actually NJ, the legal right does make it "right". Now you may not emotionally agree with it, but legally it is factually right. Barry

Yes, NJ and evmori are right. The ruling wasnt about gays or the BSA, it was about the government forcing itself on a private club to change its rules. If it had gone the other way, the government could force the BSA to accept atheist, take out the reference to God from all its materials and even force it to take trustworthy and clean out of the Scout Law so as to be fair to those who like to be dirty and arent trustworthy. Really its a basic right of United States freedom. That a few judges favored Dale still scares me. Now if the BSA eventually feels it must change, that is a different thing. That is an internal choice not being forced by government or the ruling political party at the time (biggest guy with the stick). That is also a basic right of freedom. As for Dale being force to leave because he was caught, he could have said he changed his lifestyle or just left and we wouldnt be having this discussion. That wasnt the choice he made. I guess it could be said life is not fair because the BSA didnt tell him gays weren't allowed when he joined, but whether he knew or not when he joined, he did make a choice when he did find out, not the BSA. He knew the risk and the consequences when he made the choice. Personally I think its silly to blame the BSA because gays arent specifially stated as not allowed on the application. If the BSA or any other organization was expected to list all the lifestyles and behaviors of folks not allowed in the organization, the list would go on for pages and pages and pages. I would be surprised to learn of just one registered adult who didnt know gays werent allowed to register into the BSA. Barry

>>Some packs address it by working with the troop to ensure that the boy is included as a "guest" of the troop, until such time as he is old enough to join. This requires a clear understanding that he can participate, but that nothing "counts" toward any ranks or awards until he is officially a member.

We had a few atheist parents and I have to say the only negative experience I ever had with atheist in scouting is here on the forum. The parents in our units were open minded and letting their sons choose their own path. In fact, many of those parents were fairly active in supporting the unit, they just didn't sign up. One parent was an Eagle. He was less active with the pack, but very supportive of his son in the program non-the-less. Barry

>>Nope, I like the 6-8 patrol members recommended by BP for each PL be retained and that the PL be responsible for them. This would then imply that the SPL could comfortably handle the responsibility for 6-8 PL's (PLC) and that the SPL not have to try and deal with 64 people, i.e. "run the troop".

Dangerous? I can't put into words the confidence this kind of experience builds into a boy. Its starts him to realize that nothing is impossible and that they can conquer even the smallest fears. It is a confidence that they will keep forever, and it is an experience they will tell to their grandkids. I found (by accident) that for a boy today, just setting up a tent in the hard rain while in the black dark of night is the same kind of experience. Yep, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>BSA literature states that the SPL runs the troop. Okay, fine. I don't know of many pre-18 year olds that can run a troop of 30-40 boys and probably just as many over 18.

While I have not experienced not using a SPL, I have experienced the scouts doing what is necessary to ease their burden of running the troop. Troops tend to get too heavy or to lean and adjustments need to be made to improve the program. Once the scouts realize that you really have given them permission to run the program the best way they can, they will adjust the leadership structure to fit. If things are going well right now, I think I would leave it alone and let them find the need for the SPL. If and when they do get one, the position will likely be more efficient and substantive for the troop than if they were pushed to get one. Who runs the PLC meetings? Barry

We always had a lot of adults go with us, but I guess the reason it was no big deal was because we typically camped at least 100 yards from the scouts, and we didn't feel the need to keep adults busy doing scouting stuff. We encourage them to go fishing, hiking, biking or something like that. Many just hung around the campfire reading, but the adults were not encourage to hang with the scouts. It may have turned into a camping club thing for some of the adults, but the only time our scouts might see most of the adults was during the campfire. Barry