Eagledad

Well this explains why every troop is different. 1. We handled it through the PLC. In our troop the scouts have the floor and run the show. If an adult wants to say something, anything, he has to get permission from the scout in charge. Adults never put their sign up first, they either waited for a youth leader to put up the sign, or requested a youth get the groups attention so they could speak. Also, we purposely did not yell or rant in our troop because we wanted the youth leader to learn how to control a group without yelling at them. I always told the scouts that yelling is a sign of lacking leadership skills and it was time to learn something new. 2. This would not have happened, or never ever happened while I was there. The scout is an to adults, so he is treated as an equal. What if this were a parent or another adult, would they have been treated the same way? Actually I found that scouts kind of got their way with the committee because the committee enjoyed them in the meeting. The adults even tended to show off a little as well. 3. It wouldnt happen in our troop. Also, we had a policy in our troop, if a scout doesnt understand why we do something and the adults cant justify it, they dont have to do it. This isnt quite the same issue, but the attitude to always be clear and have and explanation is the same. It forces the adults to justify their actions and not force their stature of being an adult over the scouts. 4. Im surprised to read this happens as much as it does. Adults must set an example of expectation. But I will admit I had to ask a ASMs once in a while to live up to the SPLs example. Never saw it in an BOR. 5. Refer to answer number 3. 6. Adults need to grow up. Looking at these examples, we just had a different troop and different attitude. I look at these and realize the one big difference between Lisas troop and ours is we assumed our scouts to be adults. If you fill in adult where she has scout, I think it would change a lot. Oh we had blunders now and then, just like adults have blunders with each other. But in general we did not have the situations Lisa described. Barry

Boy I read this and felt I could write a book on the question. Its not as simple as the question seems because programs evolve as they mature in their particular environment. But, after thinking about it, I think there two things that we did to make it work: PLC meetings and communication. To start off, for those who arent familiar me, I was the SM of a very boy run program. While I was SM, my personal philosophical approach to boy run was to develop the troop so that the adults never had to be around except for transportation. Our troop is different than most in that we had a Planning PLC meeting every week before the troop meeting instead of every month that most troops are accustom. There are several reasons I asked the PLC to try this and I can explain that if anyone wants. But to keep the answer short for the moment, we had a lot of PLC meetings to keep track and direct the program. I counted once that our SPLs averaged leading over 100 PLC meetings in their six month time in position. Rarely were any of the meetings longer than 20 minutes and probably closer to 10 to 15 minutes. I am convinced that any of our SPLs could run a meeting for a Fortune 500 company. They were really good after six months. The other thing we worked hard on was communication. Communication is an area where all troops struggle and we were no different. But we pushed it pretty hard because it was so important to our program performance. Our SPL typically made two calls to his officers each week. One in the middle of the week as kind of a reminder of what was going on next week and one on Sunday to find out what they were going to report on Mondays meeting. I trained leaders that they should know everything that will happen in a meeting before the meeting so that there are no surprises to make the meeting go long. His last call on Sunday is to the SM to get the adults report. It is also a convenient way for the SM to learn of any situations developing. I dont think a large troop could be boy run without good constant communication. As for the new scout program, I cant remember a year we didnt get at least 20 new scouts. So while I hate aged based patrols, we did use a New Scout Patrol type system for about the scouts first six months. I firmly believe the rate a scout grows is directly related to the number of older scouts he mixed with in his activities. New Scout Patrols reduces that number a lot no matter how you do it. But, I also learned that a mature Patrol can only take two new scouts before it adversely affects the patrol dynamics, so that is the reason why we used the NSP system. We typically moved the new scouts into existing patrols after summer camp. That is a very simplified answer to what I think is a complicated question. I hope it made some kind of sense. Good question Mike Barry

>>I am very active at District and Council levels and am becoming more involved at National, so we get more attention than your average unit.

>>Good Scoutmasters tend to be very desirable. So one solution is kick out that Scoutmaster and find one that isnt so good at the job. Barry

>>The difference between practical jokes and hazing is your position. If you are the victim, then it is hazing.

>>Now, back to my buddy, OneHour's, question: How do we cap it?

>>I don't know that I have seen anything in the thread thus far that indicates the troop adults actively encouraged such behavior in order to reduce the number of young fellows in the troop.

>>Expulsion from the troop could be justified for the younger and older scouts, but in my opinion especially the older ones who should know better.

>>Our PLC knows what is acceptable and what isn't, and they pass this down to their Scouts.

Yes, I think saying a troop that does MBs during a troop meeting means the troop is adult run is overstating without knowing the troop program. While MB activities during a troop meeting might be typical or indicative of a adult run troop, it doesn't mean it is an adult run troop. Our PLC once planned Car Show at one troop meeting where a dozen or so adults brought their hot rods and muscle cars. That was a very cool meeting for the scouts (AND DADS!). And it was under the theme of the Car Engine Maintenance MB. A dozen Webelos joined our troop because they visited on a night our troop was doing some cool activities under the Space Exploration MB. We had a really good SPL at that time and the PLC actually planned three real good meetings under that theme. If the scouts were only focused on advancement and not the MB theme, I might get concerned. I would be real concerned if they only planned MB activities for most of the meeting. But if scouts come up with great programs from MB themes, I'm cheering them on. We also do first aid every year. Barry

>>I have had the reigns for a while now, and I am implementing these ideas one at a time. And my goal is "the easy chair", as Hillcourt put it. I am not sure that round table lectures will instill this.

I had a really good write-up on this that I did about 10 years ago; Ill see if I can find it. But in short, it is very dangerous to cap troops because that reputation can hurt in the long run. It is better to reduce growth by adding requirements for the privilege of being part of the troop. The way our troop tried to control it was through higher yearly fees. Even then we still grew larger than planned, but we had a lot of money to spend. The goal however is not to develop a reputation of being a special troop or a snobbish troop. I have seen several Troops in our district live and die by that sword. Another risk of capping I saw that bit a couple troops in our district was limiting new scouts to almost not allowing any. These troops found that when the groups got to the leadership age, they didnt have enough scouts to run the troop and struggled in keeping a fun program going. The SM of one such troop saw the writing on the wall and retired quickly. His troop went from 70 to 20 scouts in two years from the sudden loss of older scouts to younger scouts who didnt know what to do. I am also not a believer of splitting troops. I did extensive research in this area trying to learn the best way to approach it and found that it fails nine out of ten times and the troop with the original SM still grew large. When our troop had 95 scouts on the roster, we typically had about 60 active. The reason for us was that our troop was friendly toward scouts in sports and band, so depending on the season, we averaged 60 active scouts except in January and Summer camp when we were back to 90. I guess I understand trying to keep the roster clean of deadbeats, only because my wife was the treasure and didnt enjoy maintaining their account, but PLC will give the best indication of when the program is too big. They simply wont be able to keep up. In reality, the troop will size itself to the SM. My observation is that it really doesnt matter how small or big the troop wants to be, the program will size itself to the SMs style of leadership. Good Scoutmasters tend to be very desirable. So one solution is kick out that Scoutmaster and find one that isnt so good at the job. Barry

>>I have always said I would split the troop if we got that large, but with good support and experienced leaders from this our troop's "Golden Age" returning to our committee, I am slowly warming to the idea of a larger group. There are plenty of strong troops in our immediate area, it is unlikely we can grow that big...

>>This will be great for round table -- thanks for sharing!

I think you have written a very good guide and I don't want to take away from that, but I think its too long, and here is why I say that: When I was the District Boy Scout trainer, I used to poll adults all the time to find out what materials they were using and I found that less than 40% of the scoutmaster even read their SMH. I think it was actually far less than that. And I found that the ASMs were half of that. The thing is that most adults think they already know most of what is being presented or written, so they may glance of gaze through it, but they aren't going to give the time for reading the whole thing. Lets face it, the Scoutmasters Handbook is one of the best sleeping pills a person can take. I used to ask my participants to ust read the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook because those are fairly short easy reads and they pretty much give most of what the scoutmasters need from the SM Handbook. I'm not trying to say you did it wrong or its not good stuff, it certainly is. But if you want it to make an impact, start cutting it down to the bare bones. Turn it into a reference guide or proceedures guide to improving patrol method in a troop. Kind of check list of what the troop should be doing to go in that direction. I hope that helps, I really like what you wrote and hate to even comment, but I'm kind of excited with what you have done here and would like to see it spread out beyound your District. Barry

Is this for a troop staff or District training staff? Barry

Baden Powell suggested scouts find God in the outdoor environment. I used to give a (sermon?) at Wood Badge called the Wow god. The point was we needed to provide the kind of experience where when a scout experiences something new in nature, they would react with Wow. There are somethings that just can't be explained in words, so a Baden suggest, we let nature do it for us. I actually saw this a couple times, one was after we reach the top of Mount Phillips. The view from Mount Phillips will catch your breath, especially if there is snow up there as well. The other experience was at summer camp as the troop was walking back from the mess hall in the late afternoon. The trees full of cicadas, or locust, suddenly started singing very loudly. It was a wow moment for everyone and it was magical. I think they will carry the moment with them forever. While we may try our best to talk about spirituality and god in scouting, I think the wow moments speak the best. Boys learn 90% of their behavior by watching others. We just need to act more than we talk. Barry

Well Im pretty excited to watch your program. I think your scouts are going to have a great time. A few thoughts: The largest group of new scouts we lost had camped every month as Webelos. They knew their Boy Scouts stuff better than our 2nd year scouts and just got bored. Most Troops are prepared to deal with new scouts who have very little if any outdoor experience. Yes, we would like them to have some camping experience, but they certainly dont need to be expert boy scouts. After doing it a few years, I found that three campouts a year was plenty for our Webs: We did one overnighter at the beginning and end of the school year, and summer camp. The Overnight campouts were our Pack campfire Pack meetings that ended with roasting marshmallows and making smores. Any family could campout if they wanted, but it was an official campout for the Webelos. I took my Webelos outdoors at least once a month and they loved it. Depending on the activity badges we were working on that month dictated where we went. We went to a local high school track for the athletic badges, rode bicycles downtown for I think Readyman and went to both the lake and local parks for other activities. Even did a couple service projects at the parks. Boys love the outdoors and it makes the meetings easier. Every den leader has their limits, but I had 16 in my last group and liked it very much. I had two parents each plan and run an activity badge at every meeting. So we had lots to keep us busy, but since the parents did the planning of the activity badges, I didnt get burned out as a den leader. I was also an ASM at the time. My Webelos ran every Pack opening and closing ceremony with one of the other dens, a different den each time. We had a routine where the den would come in an hour before the pack meeting so the Webelos could train them on how to carry the flag. The Webelos would do the commands. The Webelos also help the Cubmaster set up the meeting hall for the pack meeting during that hour. They performed two skits at each pack meeting that they chose and practiced. I did all this to get them the experience of standing and performing in front of groups, and also set themselves to serve as the trainers for the rest of the pack. In retrospect, these are small task, but they are huge confidence builders for joining the Troop next year, and they projected a maturity that the younger cubs could look forward. From my experience as a Scoutmaster, I wanted new scouts who werent afraid of the new program and doing things like I mentioned gave them that courage if not cockiness to jump into a boy run program. We are used to teaching scouts how to camp and do scout skills, that is easy. What is hard to easing them into the sudden change of an adult program run by parents into a program that requires self discpline and is run by boys. I dont need to wish you luck Scoutfish because you already have the passion to make your program a success, I just request that you let us know how it goes because its fun reading these kinds of post. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Its a trick question Sherm, Scouters aren't atheist. Barry

>>I simply state that to be "reverent" one need to revere. Now, what does it mean to "revere." For some, yes to worship a higher being (i.e. God), but for others, one could revere a mentor, a parent, etc. So, an atheist could easily satisfy that requirement.

>>Some of his comments are thought provoking, but getting into an exchange with him is exasperating. I think I've finally learned to stay out of his discussions.

If you have not been to an Eagle project review board, its worth a visit. I have seen a scout hand the board a one page hand written plan. It actually looked scribbled to me, but I didnt read the details. Now in my world, that doesnt disqualify the scout, in fact that might have been more the norm before the computer. We train our scouts to write a plan that typically requires several pages with pictures. So I would have to really interview the scout to make sure that he knew what he was getting in to. Im not sure if this fence project would pass in our District until I saw his plan in person. As someone said, removing and building a new fence is not normal maintenance. It is common for project however, we had a couple fence building projects in our troop. The question to me is: Does the board really have the authority to turn a plan down if they feel the scout is at risk of failing even though the plan meets all the requirements given by the BSA? In my mind they do not. But I do understand the temptation to protect the Scout, his troop and the District the embarrassment of failing to complete the project even though completion is not a requirement for Eagle. So this is a tough one to call without seeing the plan. Barry

>>In today's scouting, how do you handle the Buddy System with a group of scouts at night? With 18 scouts, we will be in a fairly "confined" area of a few acres around the old campsites of our primitive campsite.

Since the old fence has to be removed, it looks to me like a pretty big project. One of the trends I've seen in the past is Districts or Councils protecting their reputation of completing Eagle projects. Believe or not there is no requirement that the project must be completed to be considered successful by the EBOR. I seem to remember a district somewhere in Kansas that had a few ambitious uncompleted projects in a short period of time. One of these projects left an eye sore in the community, which led to an investigation by the local paper followed with an embarrassing article for the local Boy Scouts. If the committee simply felt the scout was taking on too large of a project, they might not approve it simply for that reason. Something like this happened a few years back in our troop, so the way the scouts handled it was they spread the task over two Eagle Projects. We counseled the scouts to design and write each project so that if one failed, the other wasnt affected and they got the projects approved. Barry

>>The overwhelming majority of unit leaders have probably never even heard of, or read in full, or thought about, the DRP. In reality for many units then, it becomes a non-issue.