Eagledad

All of your points may be part of the reason. My observation of the BSA bureaucratic and managing functions of the organization is that they aren't organized or efficient enough to acquire such data. How much of abuse calls are actually abuse and not just threats by parents to get their way. It's a lot. Or, how much real abuse is handled within the unit and never reported outside the unit. Again it's a lot. What one parent's definition of abuse is another parents idea of discipline. Very common in sports also. And then, how can that even be categorized? I have a great deal of experience with BSA membership data (or lack of), I can't even fathom getting the kind abuse data being suggested here. National just isn't that efficient. Barry

We learned the hard way that sometimes the best reaction to bad behavior is to quietly ask the scout to call their parents. They always made the call. Not as a punishment, but for a period of calm. Many times bad behavior (really bad decisions I guess) requires time for thought instead of instant reaction. Many of the scouts felt calling parents was a punishment. But, they also knew it was a last resort and they pushed too far. Once they were asked to make the call, there was no going back. And it wasn't just the adults, the senior scouts could make the decision. They rarely did without first talking to the SM. But, as inquisitivescouter pointed out, sometimes the real problem is at home. That is a hard thing to figure out. There are all kinds of signs, but the adults just need to watch. I knew one scout had a bad day because he didn't wear his uniform. He always wore it with pride. Instead of asking why he didn't wear it, I asked if everything was OK. He broke down explaining that his parents just told him they were getting divorce. Another scout was lashing out verbally and it turned out his mom decided to marry a boy friend he didn't like. Another scout was being picked on by his classmates at school. Many of these scouts live complicated lives and we need to be a patient refuge. Barry

Yes, you are right. When parents visited our troop, I told them that the troop (troops in general) is a safe place. Most misinterpret that to mean that scouts are safe from physical and mental harm, but I explain what it really means is scouts are safe from persecution for their bad decisions. The nature of learning and maturing from wrong decisions is making wrong decisions. The challenge for the adults is accepting wrong decisions as growth toward good character, not bad character in of itself. Most adults find that a hard challenge because our parenting nature is to coach change into our children whether our kids want to change or not. Adults have to learn to not react so that the scouts are behaving for the adults (meaning they hide their true behavior in fear of adult anger). But instead practice understanding why the made the bad decision based from the Scout Law and change so that they make good decisions in the future. Truth is that 95% of a scout bad decisions aren't harmful to those around them, they are just in conflict with doing their best to be friendly, courteous, kind........ And, we turn into what we practice, not what we preach. If the scouts make continued bad decisions on the little things like proper wearing uniform, saying something unkind, refusing to help when it is expected, then they continue that habit in their bigger decisions that do apply that can be harmful to those around them. See, Scouting Spirt is simply just thinking of others before ourselves. That's all. Once we humans start processing our thoughts and decisions with those around us first, then rarely are decisions bad. The Oath says "do our best and our duty to god first, our county next, then others, by obey the scout law. Then we are to take care of ourselves last in that process. But, we find that when we take care of everyone else first, we by default take care of ourselves. I know it's not as easy as that sounds. We adults carry a lot of baggage and habits are hard to change. Adult's learn how to be mentors instead of coaches. As the troop culture matures, the Scoutmaster finds that as the scouts take more responsibility for the actions, then the bad decisions brought forward become more challenging. And, it is usually challenging for the adults as well. Many times the knee jerk reactions to bad behavior is to create new polices and rules that punish everyone for one bad decision. Adults need to learn how to get the one person to identify why they make the bad decision and identify how they should change. Some bad decisions are harmful and need more thought on dealing with the bad action. The adults should work with the senior scouts on ways to handle and correct the bad decisions. Everyone learns to trust and lean on each other to work toward solutions. That is how we want our scouts to be when they have families and become community leaders. Barry

No, not all is related to child safety. My teacher kids tell me many of the safe guards and policies are for protecting the teachers. Kids aren't stupid, they know how to take advantage of a system and some are willing. Scouting is becoming a thing of the past because the success of the program relies on trust. Even this discussion is how to undermine that process. Scouting is a practice of applying the Scout Oath and Law instead of rules and policies. The culture (or is it counter-culture) wants rules and polices. Barry

More than once I took a scout home after a campout because their parents never showed up. It only happen once for that scout because it was one of the few times the parent had to meet a grumpy scoutmaster. Barry

Hmm, as a former coach, I had to deal with more abuse than in scouting. You folks are thinking sexual abuse, but I think in the context of adult power over the youth. I have seen a lot of abuse, or near abuse, when coaches loose their temper at the players, But sometime flare ups are at each other, which is scary in of itself for youth. My older son quit soccer from two coaches of apposing teams got into a fist fight. And, this was in front of other parents. And it may not even be tempers, but adults applying their power on the players by just yelling to get them to perform certain actions for the sport. The most troubling abuse case I had to personally deal with in the BSA was the adult who last his temper at a scout and physically hit him. Not in a physically harmful way, but very mentality upsetting for the scout and those around him. That adult was asked to leave, but it had nothing to do with sex. I don't know, seems the discussions here are worst case scenarios of rare and unlikely acts from adults ignoring the more common likely acts. Barry

You are correct. Barry

MattR has something here. Most folks don’t realize that the SM is selected by the committee. I encouraged all the CC’s in our district, and in WB, to take the SM Fundamentals course so they would understand the Patrol Method vision and the SMs main objective. The CC has the power of the units program. While I was the District Membership Chairman, I was tasked with counseling struggling Cub, troop, and Venturing units. In almost all cases, the common root problem was the committee did not know or understand the mission and vision of the program. As a result, adult leaders didn’t understand the tasks required to function as a team. If the committee does not pick a patrol method SM, they won’t get a patrol method program. By the way, learning to work as a team is the main objective of Woodbadge. Anyway, once they understood their objective, the adults stopped running around clueless and started working mainly on the tasks expected of them. And, they enjoyed the program more. All this to say; work a ticket to be the CC. Then find adults who support your vision. Ticket items like visiting other unit committees to learn better habits.. Visit Scoutmasters with a good patrol method boy run reputation. Take SM Fundamentals and other courses. Become an expert of your vision and the skills to manage and support that program. If you become a trusted committee member, you will likely get asked to be the troop leader. Then the world is yours. I know what you are thinking, that would take years, but I find that people with passion, vision, and know how, climb the ladder very fast. And it can be a lot of fun. Barry

I agree with David CO. When a scout joined the troop, I told the Scout in our first conference that I had total trust in him and it was up to him to change that trust. The problem with adult leaders in many troops is they tend to think of 11 years olds and 11 year old boys instead of adults with lesser experience. Truth is we don't know the maturity or life experiences of new scouts, so why assume they aren't trustworthy. New employees of a company are typically trusted with the responsibility to change when they make wrong decisions in their work. Inexperienced often start their scouter career with the parenting habit of verbally correcting scouts of their wrong decisions. But, that is a bad habit in a program where the scouts are supposed to responsibly correct themselves when they make wrong decisions. I HATE the term "Boys will be Boys", because that is a generalized term that demeans the character of all youth and their behavior, and quite frankly states that "Adults will be boys", since they are role-models by default. Along with this, I instruct adults to expect the best in scouts and never ever show anger with wrong behavior. Show only disappointment. Scouts despise adult anger in a patrol method troop because that is condescending hypocritical reaction goes against the ideal of scouts are on their own to learn from their mistakes. Scouts don't change their behavior to prevent adult anger, the hide it. But, they respect disappointment because in most cases, that is a quiet one-on-one reaction without the condescending action from a superior. Disappointment is how mature adults react to bad decision makers of all ages. It's how we want the older scouts to react with younger scouts and Patrol Leaders to act with their patrol mates. Best place in the world to practice for real life. And, more often that not, the scout will be harder on themselves when they feel they let the other person down. When scouts trust that they are safe from condescending anger and correction, they don't hide their behavior in fear, they present it in the open for affirmation. But, they must feel they are being trusted as equals with the adults and other scouts to feel safe. Are the bad decisions of the adults treated the same way. Role modeling disappointment is the most powerful teacher for growth. Barry

My two favorite subjects. Not to be confused with accounting. Seems math is not an exact science with accountants. 😂 Barry

OK, but ThenNow is saying that he is here to provide information, but in providing information, he keeps giving a personal, not so kind opinion, of the BSA, Then defends himself as just the messenger. Continued Unleasing on him. All of us here whine now and then about National, but at least we admit it. He needs to be a scout like with us as he says the BSA is supposed to be.

As I said before, why are you here? Barry

If trend is a unit problem, correct with instruction at the unit level. Trends aren't personal, so don't make the correction personal. When the correction involves the parents and scouts, then instruct the parents and scouts together. Barry

God blessed us by creating us all differently. Barry

I have coached a lot of folks on their tickets. My first question is have you talked to CC and SM. I know that you said the CC step down, but he could still advised some direction for the troop needs. Talk to the SM as well. I am not one to suggest being very diversified, especially if you are new. Keep it simple. Don't take on big projects that require skills you've never used. How many camporee disasters were planned by a scouter working a ticket item. Too many. And, instead of being a planning leader for activities like fund raising or Scouting for Food, , write your ticket to be an assistant planner for several activities. Learn from the experienced adults instead of reinventing the wheel. Then add your own little improvements as you gain understanding. Stick to your unit. A lot of adults tend to get into district and even council stuff. Unless you plan to spend most of your time in those areas, stick with your unit. Ticket items should be a practice of skills toward your position expectations. If you aren't given expectations, then wright the ticket to observe or assist. But, don't do a lot of activities or you will burn yourself out and get soured by the experience. Pace yourself. Sometimes observing gains the most knowledge. One of my ticket items was visiting 4 other troop PLC meetings to observe different techniques. I've suggest new CC chairs visit for other units to observe committee meetings. Funny enough, you will observe more of what doesn't work than what does work. But, I like the beer idea. Good luck, and we are here for you. Barry

I thought the 4th law of motion was "a scout is always hungry". Hmm, I can't seem to google it..

Yes, I agree. But now the culture and community don't show agreement of the bad behavior because activist promote self expression of the youth. Not all that long ago, neighbors would stop and report concerning behaviors to the parents and the parents would take care of their children's issues. Today the community turns a blind eye to the behavior by youth because they don't want to get involved with a hostile response from the parents, and possibly the community. It doesn't even have to be sexual, often the police are called by concerned citizens when they see a child walking to school. Talk to any teacher, the trend now is to accept a students sexual choice behavior without reporting it to parents. Parents may be the last to hear their child has made a sexual lifestyle choice, even with their elementary age children. It may be just a brief experiment or phase for the child, but the culture will take it, guide and push them toward that choice. Barry

It's just balance to the few here marketing the program as unsafe against predators. Barry I appreciate that, thanks. Barry

I'm sorry for your pain, I really am. But, I don't know why you are even here. I've talked to a lot of people about this subject and accepting for a couple of angry posters on this forum, nobody believes the BSA is haven for abused boys or predators. Sure, scouts were abused by bad people and laws were broken. The historical reputation of the scouting program holds it's integrity. I hope you get what is coming to you, but I also hope you get the help for getting a healthy mind and back to a normal life because telling off BSA members on a BSA forum is not going to do it. The BSA and it's members are not your problem or enemy. As I said in other discussions, all the bad in the history of Boy Scouting isn't even a micro blip when compared to all the good the program has brought. You and a couple others here may get some satisfaction with the down fall of the BSA, but history shows that future humanity looses out the most. Barry

I agree as far as not allowing such things, but not calling it abuse. Barry

Yes, but when we are talking about 600 claims, skinny dipping and strip poker doesn't rate up their with some of the monstrous stuff being talked about. Barry

I would have thought there would have to be some predator motivation to make a claim. I don't see a predator in your incident. A lot of scouts used to go down stream at summer camp to skinny dip. Claims? Barry

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks. Barry

I took qwazse's post as more of; YP has done all it can, not it's up to family and community. Maybe that isn't what he said, but I can't see changes improving YP guidelines at the unit level. Barry

Really! Now that seems sticky. How, in a patrol method program where scouts tent with each other away from the adult camp, can an adult not create context for a youth predator? Barry