Eagledad

This is an interesting question, a very good question. I look back on those moments with those few scouts and all I can answer is patience and separation. Whether it was a scout who clearly was trying to get my goat or just one of those unintentionally annoying scouts; patience and separation is what saved me, or would would have saved me if I could go back in time. By the way, its not just scouts. My daughter Barry

Guidelines and Policies can be good or bad, but they are just about always a restriction of freedom. I understand the idea of wanting printed guidelines, especially for the new families. The problem I learned through time is that nothing remains constant. In most cases, guidelines, policies, rules and so forth were put in writing to prevent repeating a negative experience. However, we find later down the road that they also in turn are restrictions of freedoms that can hold back the program. For example: somehow an immature young first class scout is elected SPL and the troop program suffers for six months. The reaction is the new policy that all SPLs have the minimum rank of Star or life, thus keeping mature scouts in the position. Then in the not to distant future a once in a lifetime natural super leader who also hates advancement finds he cant run for SPL. No logical reason why he shouldnt run for SPL because he certainly is the most qualified scout you have had in years. Yet, there is that policy. I have the shirt, believe me and the scars of a scout so frustrated by the system that he quit. The risk of policies, rules, and such are that while they may protect the program from past negative experiences, they also can restrict future growth. Discipline is the same way; just soon as the troop comes up with a great three times and you are out policy, you find some scouts should have had only one or two strikes while others needed four. Even worse is that the PLC is held to their own policy in writing. Those of us who have done this a while understand that experience develops wisdom and wisdom changes everything in how to handle future events. Or more important, the opportunities to grow from handling future events. Do you really want to restrict the growth of wisdom? And, I dont trust those leaders who say we are only led by the scout law either or similar philosophical guidence. I have found many of these idealistic theorists to be the most rigid in unwritten laws. Sometimes the danger isn't what is in written, but what is highly suggested by the intimidating Scoutmaster. Is it so hard to ask the scouts to read their handbooks and develop their habits accordingly to see where they go? I cant say guidelines arent good because I find newer units with lesser experienced adults and scouts need some temporary guidelines to hold back confusion and chaos until they have the confidence to handle more difficult situations. I remember our PLC created a rule that scouts had to write reports on the scout laws they broke when they were called down for discipline. At the time that was the crutch they needed to hold scouts accountable. But that change about a year later as they got better at controlling misbehavior on the spot. They grew and matured and didnt need the crutch anymore..I could have forced it to happen, but it would in the long run take them longer to understand. Adults are the same as you know, it was the adults who set the rule of minimum Star rank for the SPL. Silly us, we sure learn the hard way on that one. Weve gotten to know you and your program from your post. I think you are more than a reasonable leader with a good intuition for the program and it would be condescending to give a flat ya or nay to your question. We all have to growth to our best potental. You know better what your program needs to maintain growth and maturity. But I will suggest that if you decide that some guidelines need to be put in writing, then also add a line or two that reads something like" Nothing is concrete. Scouting is a program where everyone is expected to grow and mature from their experiences. All policies are very subject to change so that we not restrict our continued growth". I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>*Character is the courage to stop others before they hurt others.* It is also the courage to act( EVEN THOUGH NOT POPULAR) to stop somebody to CONTINUE harming others. Not just saying: " We'll let it go this time, but next time there's trouble"

>>Now, if this really is a case of a dingbat teenager, then by responding strongly and reassuring the other boys and parents that yeh take stuff like this seriously, yeh have credibility as adult leaders. Then if yeh decide to let the boy come back to da program under certain conditions they will trust you and believe in you. You might save the lad's scouting career.>The boy may not have meant any harm, but that doesn't matter. Harm was done, actions were innapropriate and rules were broken as well as somebody hurt. It's time to be held accountable.

>> Finally - if an employer ever does not want me due to something there, I probably do not want to work for them either.

>>Barry, that may be the way *you* interpret the DADT of the BSA, but others certainly interpret it differently. And the military version of DADT doesn't say that at all.

>>And haven't many said that the BSA policy is also really a DADT policy? You can stay in as long as no one finds out. As long as you don't tell, as long as no one finds out, as long as you don't get caught, it's ok.

I saw an interview with Charlton Heston talking about filming of the planet of the apes. He said that by the end of filming, he was struck that the actors of the different groups of apes being portrayed tended to hang together during breaks with their specific bred of ape. MY own personal opinion is that identifying ourselves with a group is an instinctive trait of survival. Safety in numbers so to speak, so the color shirt thing doesnt surprise me. But I think the adults react the same just as Charlton Heston observed. I am a big believer that the primary role models for youths should be the same gender because watching others during the years up to puberty is how all our behavior is learned. I think the Scoutmasters should be males in boy scouts and females in girl scouts. However, when there isnt a good leader of the same gender, then it is better to have a good leader of the opposite gender than not have a good leader at all. I also believe a lot is learned having the other gender around as well so the youth learn the appropriate behavior of working together, but not always. Its OK for the guys or gals to have a weekend to themselves now and then. To me, there is a difference between "Moms not invited" and "No Women Allowed". Barry

>>but he has some organizational issues

>>She thought a second ... but I don't think she buys it ... didn't expect her to. Ok... I tried ...

>>From other posts - I think your son is in middle school. Keep in mind, too, that middle school boys are a flighty lot who seem to have GREAT fear of being publicly identified as boy scouts.

How old is your son? Barry

>>A SM is to provide vision, while coaching and mentoring.

>>I'm thinking that with this little glimpse of boy-led, that just about any troop could be boy-led if given the chance. Stosh>> Of course, but it takes time to train the adults. (LOL) Im glad you have favorable comments towards using an SPL. Our council ran our JLTC (Before NYLT) much the same way when I was The Council JLT Chair. Between 30 to 40 scouts were gathered in a room the first night and asked to create four patrols and select their Patrol Leader, SPL and troop officers. None of the staff participated and it usually took about 15 minutes. The scouts did not know that they would do this before the course, so 15 always impressed me. The reason 30 to 40 scouts who dont know each other can do this is because they are trained and experienced in the process and functions of a BSA troop. They may not realize it until they are pushed into it, but they do a good job once push comes to shove. Once the scouts had the patrols established and the SPL selected, the SPL directed to lead a PLC meeting for creating the next days course agenda. From getting up to going to bed, the scouts have full control. The only requirements we give them are 6 classes and thee PLC meetings that have to be scheduled in the day. They had to write a new agenda every night for the four day course. Just as Stosh is pointing out, it is quite exciting to watch. Barry

>> I have seen hundreds of post on the subject of Eagle, but what if there wasn't such a rank. How would scouting be different? Would the BSA still exist? Would the program be better? What are your thoughts?>Fundamentally, I don't think it is so much what BSA did wrong or right, but what they did not do.

>>Unfortunately only the DAM award is awarded from the district, all the rest are council or nationally awarded. Thus the reason why the knot is the only knot with an overhand knot and all the rest are the full square knot. >And the reason folks struggle with it is because of the conflict between what people think it is and what the requirements state it is.

>>To get back to the DAOM, it is called "District" not because of district service but because it is awarded by the district.

I am saddened that the discussion took this turn. After reading the defense/attack of scouters who may or may not have earn awards they may or may not deserve from posters who may or may not have these awards, I finally understand the beep beep beep backup warnings of humble narcissists. I look back on scouters whom I worked with that I knew were motivated more from the glitter of the Silver Beaver than the passion of character development and I wondered how our District or council would have been different. I can think of a couple who were the most enthusiastic presenters at Wood Badge, the loudest singers at Round table and the most energetic helpers at district events. Should we ask these more self serving folks to go home because we dont agree with their motivation? Im pretty good at reading people and Ive worked with hundreds of scouting volunteers and without meeting most of the folk on this forum personally, who can say that your hearts may not be on the boys? Does it really matter? Shouldnt we accept awards as thank yous without having to submit a two page resume to the forum list to justify what we proudly show on our uniform? I think back on a Michele who was a Scouter that got into scouting about the same time I did in our district. Ive never seen an adult get so many awards and get on all the training staffs so quickly. It was very clear that our motivations for scouting were clearly different, but in the 15 years I worked with her, she started three successful Packs, and three successful troops. She was our districts first female Scoutmaster and she was terrible. But she didnt become the SM to change boys, she did it to get the troop started then hand the reins over to next scoutmaster for whom she was searching. She has been gone for five years, but the units she started are doing well. I have never met a person that could get training staffs more excited. And she treated everyone as if she were their best friend. It took 15 years for her to get the Silver Beaver, which it was a surprise for many of us that it took so long. Everyone knew that she was in it for the Silver Beaver, but no body minded because most of the work she did turned into gold. When I look back at what I contributed to scouting and the boys, I am satisfied that I truly gave my best. But when I compare my accomplishments on paper to Micheles, I am dwarfed and I am ashamed of anything I said against her (and I said a lot). I just wasnt looking at the big picture. I dispised her and those like her and I cringe when I look back on it because I now that the next time I meet her, I will still be treated as her best friend. She never cared about my motivation, she just enjoyed working with me and anyone else who loved this scouting stuff. We all have our vision, some are more noble than others. If however we would look just a little beyond the other persons motivation and start measuring the ground being plowed, maybe we might not mind so much that their fire was fed by a different fuel than ours. Everyone is different and marches to a different beat, some folks like to show themselves off, others like to stand in the shadows. But when the day is done and we look at mountains we have climbed together, are we so different? I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>On the flip side, discontinuing the Eagle Scout rank will get many times the press of the recent slew of Video Games belt loop articles, and due to the general public perception of "Eagle Scout" as a buzz word, the resulting PR would be widespread and would not be positive.

Our troop is much like DScouter15's troop, but the best campfire closing I have ever experienced was humming Amazing Grace with bagpipes being played on nearby hill as we left the campfire. Barry

>>Program changes were made so that more boys would be inclined to seek the Eagle and thus more boys would/could attain it. It had nothing to do with changes in thinking that Eagle was the Holy Grail of the BSA, it was only a few program changes made to entice and enable more boys to go for it

>>The difference would be in the attitude of the people, not the program itself.

A great discussion asking when do we start wasting our time helping scouts grow farther than they themselves want to go. I have seen hundreds of post on the subject of Eagle, but what if there wasn't such a rank. How would scouting be different? Would the BSA still exist? Would the program be better? What are your thoughts? Barry

I understand sst3d, but here is the tone of a few responses: >>But in my corner of the world, a lot of prestige seems to be assigned to fellas who haven't been on a camp-out in decades, have only a flimsy connection with a unit of boys, and come across as merely trophy collectors looking for the next bead and bauble. Now this assessment isn't global, but there is enough of it out there to rub me the wrong way at times.

Here is what I was responding to Gunny. >>Open toe/open heel shoes? Unless you're camping in the backyard and walking nowhere more challenging than a shopping mall, then nope - not going to wear them.