Eagledad

>>Think back 100 years, we had the same issues with racism and misogyny. I think we've made great progress there. Hopefully in the next generation, it will be a thing of the past.

>>The argument is not about we think something is "natural" or "unnatural." At the end of the day, we only have control over our own decisions and how we mold our own lives.

>>Still haven't addressed why same-sex pairings among humans isn't "natural", or defined what "natural" means>> Too many words the first two times huh. OK, opposite genders have babies, same genders dont. How's that? Our bodies are very complicated and instinctivily use many actions intended just to find the appropriate mate. Its amazing really, but the ways our bodies give off or identify odors, the way we talk, move our eyes, and even walk have purposeful messages when we are trying to attract a mate. The ONLY purpose for all that natural complexity is to produce offspring. From a nature point, it would make no sense to attract a mate of the same gender since that would produce nothing of benefit to nature. There are certainly motivations that would drive a person to seek out a sexual partner of the same gender, but that isn't natural. Instinctively the sex drive is very powerful so as to insure continued population growth. We are safer in numbers and our instinctive nature drives to that end. However, that powerful strong drive can push a weak person toward un natural behavior as well, say children, animals or even cadavers. Humans are given the tools to make choices, sometimes they choose wrong. I think you can circle around this all day if you want, but Im a pretty black and white person. Most behavior is driven instinctily with the natural purpose of survival or adding to the population. Most behavor make sense once you understand that purpose. Ive not seen or heard of anything logical in my lifetime that even suggest that gays are born gay. Gay sex is not natural, and we have to agree to disagree on this subject. Barry

>>Our instinctive behavior to attract a partner for appropriation is very complicated and has many aspects to it, but one thing it doesnt have is the drive to attract the same gender to appropiate. That desire would mean something isnt quite right.>Every living thing has an instinctive drive to appropriate. Our instinctive behavior to attract a partner for appropriation is very complicated and has many aspects to it, but one thing it doesnt have is the drive to attract the same gender to appropiate.

>>What is real? See, now you are moving away from your original argument, that "all sex for gays is deviant and bizarre because two bodies of the same gender are not designed for sex." There are lots of things the human body was not "designed" to do, which have consequences. Are they all "deviant and bizarre", too?

>>Then there is how amusing I find the straw man argument that bodies of the same-gender were "not designed" to have sex with each other.

>>Could it be because....He is the judge? Not you, not I. So tell me...how arrogant is it to say that if you do something for your reasons, it's wrong, but if I do the exact same thing...but for MY reasons, it's nobile?

>>You will find that I NEVER said it was arrogant to follow God's word anywhere. I did say it is arrogant FOR US TO CLAIM God wouldn't like something or that our God would condemn something based on OUR ideals when it was plainly stated that we are not to judge others.

Hey, I'm still just trying get my mind around that its arrogant to follow Gods word in the other discussion. Patriotism is a bit down the list to ponder just yet. Barry

>>Yah, Mr. Boyce, I reckon we do have to be honest in admitting there's an awful lot of deviant and bizarre heterosexual behavior out there.

>>Psst. I'll let you in on a secret. There is a gay agenda, and I know what it is: 1. Spend time with family 2. Buy milk 3. Be treated equally

>>From his description, I reckon Eagledad's troop fell into da second to last group, eh?

>>BUT, for example, when child and parent(s) are told by the school officials that they are 'entitled' to free breakfast and lunch, when they are told that they are 'entitled' to free access to books and other learning resources, this is a lesson to both student AND family that they are 'entitled' to something provided by the government. It is a very short step from this to their 'expectation' of the services and goods for 'free' as part of 'their' entitlement.

>>It takes a lot of kid savvy talent to really encourage the personal growth and friendship based stuff that makes for real independent and mutually supportive PLs and patrols. Lots more group conversations than adult-driven "mentoring" conversations. And lots more trust in da ability of kids to step up and be responsible not just for activity tasks, but for their own structure and development. Beavah>Yah, OK... an update... 1. Outdoors at least once a month. 2. There is good retention of older youth who have stuck around for the program and continue to be active. 3. The older youth are seen to be actively helping younger scouts, managing patrols, handling problems, directing the activities. 4. The adult leaders successfully rein in/redirect/re-educate interference by other adults. 5. Well established finances/financial planning. 6. Parents appropriately involved in support tasks that fit their expertise/interests. 7. Scouts, especially older boys, demonstrate personal success in other activities and a service-minded nature. Alumni go on to successful lives with a service trend; some alumni stay as ASMs or help out occasionally when back in town. 8. Good SM minute focused on ideals; kids buy in. You can ask a boy about doing the right thing and he "gets it". 9. No provisional patrols, ever. 10. There is good patrol spirit, scouts identify with their patrol. There are patrol competitions or at least friendly rivalries. 11. Advancement should be mixed; not all kids the same age should be the same rank, different boys should have different numbers and types of MBs. 12. Mix of in-troop ASMs and active parents. Not just one or two active adults. 13. Scouts buy into the troop uniforming standard. 14. Adults seem committed and enthusiastic. 15. Program activities offer variety and change somewhat from year to year. 16. Troop PLC conducts an annual planning conference (or some equivalent). 17. Troop runs at least one TLT/JLT experience each year that is fun and at least partly outdoors. Boys (not just adults) talk about it positively. Any more? Any edits? Beavah

>>In our motorcycle club we use it to remove past owners art work when buying a used bike (Goldwing)

Easy Off Oven Cleaner Acetone

Yes, all boys can be boy scouts provided they are paired with the troop. An extreme example I off the top of my head is a quadriplegic Eagle in our council. There are very few troops that could give him a quality scouting program, but there is at least one. Barry

What is considered successful? Of the top four largest troops in our district, Troop A with 150 scouts is totally adult run with a lot of activities to keep the scouts busy. Not much boy run, but a busy schedule. Troop B with a 120 scouts is totally a MB Mill with a ho hum monthly outdoors program, but a very energized (and expensive) summer program. Troop C with 85 scouts is very boy run with a very active outdoor program and high adventure program. Troop D with 60 scouts has a good outdoor program but almost no boy run. I hate to disagree with Eagle92 because I want to agree with him so bad, but boy run is not a prominent factor for a successful program. I dont think it is even in the top three. At least if we are looking at numbers as an indicator of success. If we are looking at numbers as the indicator of success, my observations is Good Recruiting is the top item for a successful troop. Troop B above to me has one of the most boring troop programs Ive observed in our district, but they have the best recruiting program of any troop in the state. Also, they loose at least half of their new scouts every year, but they recruit a lot of scouts. Troop D started with 12 Webelos and was at 60 scout in two years. The scoutmaster< who admits he doesn't know what he is doing, is in marketing and knows how to recruit. Now I will say this about boy run, my observation is that the REAL boy run programs have the most active OLDER scout programs. Ive said a few times here that the best indicator of over all troop troop can be seen in older scout part of the program. Three of the four examples above loose 90% or more of their scouts by age 14. Barry

Who develops the Patrol Leader in a troop without an SPL? Barry

Our scouts knew that I wanted them to pursue at least two terms of PL before they moved toward a troop office. I actually wanted more terms but most scouts who serve two are ambitious and time is short from their perspective. I don't like Patrol Leaders before the age 13 and I really preferred 14. Our guys work pretty hard and 13 year olds just aren't mature enough for that responsibility, except for the rare natural leaders and even they don't grow much from their experience until after puberty. There is an unwritten expectation that our troop had of officer positions scouts are expected to experience before they run for SPL. Most go that route, a couple of the good ones may skip one of the positions. But they were good enough to make up for the skills of the position they skipped. As for the "boy run" "boy led", I guess we all have our personal definitions and expect everyone to accept then as written in stone for all to read. But I have always use the "boy run" term as well because each scout has the opportunity to define himself in the troop and make the program better. A troop won't function well unless all the boys buy into the boy run concept. I am not a fan of the SM picking the leaders because frankly, there are not that many adults who can do it right. Talk about favorites and popularity. I also think the scouts need a system that they can rely on to change the course of leadership themselves. Waiting for the SM to pick his next favorite can be very frustrating for those not happy with the present favorite. Some folks keep referring to elections as popularity contest. Well I guess, buy our guys work very hard and only the scouts willing to work that hard run for the position. I think that is how the cream is really supposed to rise to the top. It works most of the time. I said all along and to expecially Kudu that leading a troop is an individual thing no matter what youth program we are in. The good scout leaders do good, the bad ones don't. But the vast majority of them grow to get better and that is what a program must count on to survive. I know this was an issue with Badon Powell, I have a book on his write ups of adults. Strikingly, he was dealing with the same adult problems back then as we discuss today. Human behavior does not change. I can't imagine a troop without an SPL, but that is OK by me because we were a very good boy run program with a very good boy run reputation. But its that custom tailoring thing that makes it work so well for all the good troops. I've met a lot of really good boy run troops, none were exactly like ours. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

My style of Scoutmastering was training the Scouts to run the troop the same as they would if the adults didn't show up. In that vision, the SPL was being trained the scoutmaster's responsibilities. What does the scoutmaster do in your troop? That is what the SPL would be doing if the adults didn't show up. Barry

>>I am not sure I understand what "fake leadership" is

>>Or, maybe we should just strike that one from the books.

>>I concede the point that my son did not perform his POR very well, but being fired just short of six months? without a "performance review" and corrective action plan?

Never say no to a scout, there is an opportunity here. The fastest way to get a boy to think and behave like a man is finding exercises where he makes mature decisions and practices mature skills in activities that interest him. Those who have been to Philmont were likely introduced to hatchet throwing. Hatchet throwing is the skill of throwing hatchets at a target on a large wooden log. Hatchets and throwing sharp objects is something that intrigues most young males, so this activities draws scout like a fly on honey. Each person who wanted to participate had to learn the skills of throwing the hatchet and proper safety to be in the area. I dont know much about these knives, but the boys are intrigued by them and if they are legal, we can use their focused interest to our advantage to teach safety and proper use of knives. If limits have to be set like not using them for activities for which they arent safely designed like in a woods, that is a great place to learn the right tool for the right job. They also need to learn and understand to not let the image of of a certain tool like that knife put them in situations that will cause others to feel uncomfortable. This is an opportunity for the scout to practice putting the needs or concerns of other before themself. A wonderful life lesson. It is important that we teach our youth how to react to the unknown with caution, not Fear. Caution is not the same as fear. Fear generally stops growth where as caution encourages it. Barry