Eagledad

I was thinking, the district asked me to visit a Blue and Gold Banquet so I can speak a few minutes about the troop program. Less than 50 percent of Webelos cross over to troops in our area, so I really want to make an impact. I want to get these guys excited for the adventure they can add to their lives. I want them staying awake at night thinking about the adventures they will do in the troop, you know those cool things Boy Scouts do. Where to start, where to start? Yes, Yes, I have it; Guys, in the future your Scoutmaster wants you to teach another boy a skill using the EDGE method. My apologies, but I am grateful that I was a SM during a time when scouts didn't have to worry about acronyms. We must understand that the average scout will have learned 90 percent of everything the troop program can teach by the age 14. More importantly, that 90 persent will have come from "observing" others during the troop activities, not listening to classroom style lectures. Why don't we use the 10 percent of lecture time for the older scouts so they role model good teaching skills while working with the younger scouts. That will give the younger scouts more time for fishing. Barry

>>I really think now that one of the reasons the boys have been reluctant to be boy-led is not because they didn't know what to do, but because they didn't really trust the adults to give them the authority along with the responsibility to run the program themselves. I'm hoping my CC clarified it a bit for the boys last night.

Yes, you gotta love this scouting stuff.

This would all be solved if National would add velcro, bungee cords and duct tape skills to the first class requirments. Oh and lets not forget lighting stoves. (LOL) Barry

I've been invovled in a few, we did them under the Star Trek and Star Wars themes, but you can make up any theme you want. The scouts love them. I'm sure that if you do a search night camporees at google and at Scouts-L.org archives, you will get more information than you can read. The basics for us is we started the competition from the evening campfire and went to about 2:00 AM in the morning. The adults cooked breakfast and had a lot of fun doing that. Barry

I hate to talk about our program as an example of the right way to do things because it comes off as bragging and I dont like to brag, but it seems several topics today are contradictory to our program when I was scoutmaster. When I left as Scoutmaster 43 percent of the 93 scouts on the roster were 14 and older. We averaged an Eagle every two months and the average age of our eagles was 16.5 years old. The main requirement for a program that older scouts like to stay in is physical and mental challenge of all scouts of all ages. A middle school troop is one where the scouts basically learn scouts skills, go to a couple summer camps and then repeat. Its the repeat that drives older scouts away. I agree with Beavh that older scouts do like to work with younger scouts, they love it in fact. Typically our scout who just left the office of SPLs volunteered to be a Troop Guide because they want to keep serving other scouts. For some reason they feel a special drive to work with the younger scouts. That is not typical of scout 14 and younger. They havent matured to the point yet. For those of us who have worked in troops with older scouts, watching older scouts running the troop is pure pleasure. In another discussion today, there is the assumption that scouting doesnt have any real goals for the boys to strive for. No game to win, not concert to play; Not so, the goal of scouts is to live out dreams. Does the scout recruiter talk about all the fun in learning how to tie knots and earn merit badges? No, they typically talk about camping, canoeing, backpacking, sailing, using a knife and learning how to use and axe. These are things that feed dreams. In my last year of Scoutmaster, my SPL was also the Assistant Crew Leader in a Backpacking Crew (is that an ASPL?). He was also an officer in the OA chapter, and he virtually planned a two week backpacking high adventure trek to Montana for 2 men and 10 scouts all by himself. He had told me that the last year of scouting for him was a dream he had for a couple of years. I preached in adult training that Scouting is a place where dreams can come true. Its up to the adults to get out of the boys way. What are your scouts dreams? That is what their goals are. The problem of working with scouts to strive for their dreams is that we have to work with each scout individually. WE have to get to know each one well enough that we know how to get out of their way. My best SPL hated advancement. He was never so happy as he was when he was leading, he was never so miserable as he was when working on advancement. So, we learn to shut up about working toward that Eagle. By the way, for the band discussion, while that scout was SPL, he belong to the school marching band, school Jazz Band, and church worship band. He made work. Another scout set a goal of getting all the Merit Badges the BSA offered, he hated leadership. Strangely, but both these guys where OA District Chiefs. You just have to get them started and then get out of the way. And that reminds me for some of the nay sayers of goals and character, The only thing that limits a boy's dream is for adults to push their dreams on the boy. You want older scouts to hang around, get out of their way. Get out of the habit of saying you CANT do that because.. Instead, say show me how, or lets give that a try, or Im open to that new idea, where can we start?. >>Da key ingredient for high schoolers seems to be genuine challenge and responsibility. I think many of the Venturing Crews don't get that, either, eh?

>>Maybe I'm just a confused person, Eagledad.

This isn't a strikes and balls kind of call, its a catch the fly ball than drop it kind of call. No judgement required. You are a complex person beavh, the vast majority of your post in context say do whats right for the scouts. I'm lost at why you don't respond that way in this discussion. Its black and white to me, what is your gray area that I don't see? Barry

I remember after our first year in the troop, the UC came by and proudly announced that we earned the Quality Unit Award. I will never forget the look on his face when we asked, "What did we do to get that". The requirements for these awards are basically a short check list of what the leaders hand books direct us to do it anyway. But so few people read the hand books, they don't know. For me, the irony is the award now requires the adults go to training where they will learn what the leaders hand books say. But it works, I have watched adults go way out of their way to earn those awards. Barry

>>Right Barry, but probably you would have done that anyway.

>>To those who say "well if we'd just known *that,* we could have avoided all this trouble..." let me ask you what you'd do if a new boy joined your troop and the former SM called you to let you know that he had a real problem with "johnny." So, are you going to prevent "johnny" from joining your troop? Because short of that, I don't see how you would have avoided much of anything. Let the boy's behavior **in your troop** be your guide to how you treat him. If he transfers to another troop, wish him well and facilitate the transfer of his records, then let him be.

There was a time when parents were complaining that the Troop meeting was ending 30 minutes too late. I ask the parents to politely and respectfully talk to the SPL. The problem wasn't that the meeting was long, it was that it started late. A year later a parent who had another son in a different troop was complementing our program because the SPL always started the meeting on time without any adults help. Barry

>>Gossip is never a good thing. It destroys relationships, breaks trust, and rarely helps anyone accomplish anything other than passing around vague half-truths which cause more gossip, accusations, cliques, etc.

Its not just a scout question, I was in similar situation with an adult leader that we asked to leave. The scoutmaster of the troop she joined after us had the same moral dilemma a year later. Barry

I'm not sure they can do that, it used to be a scoutmaster's signature. I've not heard of committee working against the boys. Sounds like the adults need to get some things worked out besides training. Barry

We had a situation like this and we did call it a youth protection issue because it scared the bejebers (is that how you spell it?) out of the scouts. Call the cops? Common Beav, and waste their time for what looks to them like a parent loosing a temper? Maybe because I had to deal with similar situations, I think this is a good topic. And by the way, this is the number question I got from new leaders at my Scoutmaster Specific Class. First thing you do is remove the adult immediately. Have a committee meeting with the adult as soon as possible to review the behavior and discuss the adults future contact with the scouts. I suggest a very small limited committee to minimize rumors and to keep the discussion quick. I would also suggest a representative of the either the district or council to witness the meeting. In our case we had a very good District Commissioner and Unit Commissioner both trusted by the Council. The problem with these kinds of things is nobody wants to be a bad guy and most people dont like confrontation, especially volunteers. In fact, the adult might even be a neighbor. I find women are better at this than men, maybe its a protection instinct. We had a female CC who had no trouble putting adult behavior in its true context. But, experience had taught me that if these things are left unsettled, the adult will likely repeat the behavior. You must protect your scouts. And lets be clear, we are not talking about an adult who snapped at a scout after a long hard rainy day on a campout, we are talking about repeated dangerous behavior. I can think of four situations in past years in both the Troop and the Pack (two women and two men) where the offending adults were restricted from all scouting activities for the safety of the scouts. One adult was reported to the district and council for child abuse. Another was sent to rehab by the family for six months. Everyone likes to point out reporting these incidents to the Chief Executive, I guess because they assume Council will take over and fix the problem. They will not. Instead you likely receive What is your committee doing about this matter?. They will even send someone to monitor the meeting if needed. But Unless the council sees that this is a really bad situation that they must get control, they will expect your unit to take care of the matter. Myabe because we learn to be proactive, but we were never given advice by the council, not even in the child abuse case. So reporting to the Chief Executive should not be at the top of your units list of actions taken to protect the scouts. Your unit must first take proactive actions to protect the scouts and just consider reporting to council as more of a getting the situation on record. Except in extreme cases of course. I think these kinds of things are unusual, that I been involved with four is more a matter of big units and a lot of time in scouting. I would like to suggest every committee have a plan in case something like this comes up, but I think that is unrealistic because as I said, the reality is most adults in a volunteer organization will tend to turn a blind eye until the situation gets dangerous. The best advice I like to give adults is Protect the Scouts. I know it kind of sounds silly to say that, but its almost like we have to give adult leaders permission to confront aggressive behavior. Or maybe its more like giving the cowardly lion courage, I dont know. But some adults out there have behavior problems, likely you wont ever see any in your unit, but if you see do something that you dont like, Protect the Scouts. Barry

>>1) I would make sure the SPL and SM shake them down prior to the trip to ensure they have everything they need.

>>I found it interesting you listed "Adult leaders may not be the best all the time" as a CON of scouting but not sports.

>>Now I admit I didn't follow protocols to get my DC. I had my eye on a young man, told the CM I want him, and then went to the SM. MY personal requirements for DC, stressing personal requirements, is that he has basic scoutcraft down pat (usually meaning First Class, but if I got a gung ho Scout who knows his stuff and isn't FC yet, I'll take him), is mature, can work with the kids, AND keeps his grades up in school. Minute grades falter b/c he is over-committed, I don't want him, or her if a Venturer. School is the most important thing IMHO.

>>But thinking that a teacher or guidance counselor can diagnose something this complex is delusional.

I been working with psychologist for 15 years, so I have learned a lot about them and their field. They are also a great resource for discussions that come up in this forum. But because of that, I will come right up front and admit that I have very little respect for psychologist and their vocation. I have come to have even less respect for the opinions of psychologist on this forum. I just know too much about them and the APA. That being said, I went and asked them about the subject of this discussion. One psychologist I talked with said he firmly believes their field and the psychiatric field have done more harm than good to our generation of youth. However, its not just them, we have developed into a culture of quick fixes (his words). The conclusion is that parents are more self focused and dont give their family the time together needed for kids to grow up expressing themselves both physically and mentally. He says the large number of ADD diagnoses is in part a result of a culture of moms working. Before that time, mothers spent a large part of their time staying busy with their kids. If you ever watched very many episodes of the program Dog Whisperer, you find that 90% of the time the host of the show, Caesar, says the owner isnt walking or giving the dog enough attention and as a result, the dog gets restless and gets in to trouble. Its basically the same with humans. Our kids are energetic and their minds need stimulus. But todays parents are either too busy or too tired to give their kids the time needed to give them that stimulus. So we hand them over to the TV and video games to baby sit for us. But its not just a parent thing, its cultural. My son is also diagnosed ADD, BY HIS TEACHER. In fact the majority of kids who go for testing were first asked by the teacher to get them tested. Parents dont know better, so they have the kids tested and then find themselves being swayed by the experts. My coworker says that we should teach parents that a teacher asking for an ADD test is really a call to the parents to change something in their family habits. Its a cycle that is next to impossible to change. Parents are busy and kids are energetic, which result in a collision at a cultural level leading to a generation of drug up kids. One last thing, my psychologist coworker was telling me that while there is a lot of talk about the social side effects of druging kids, there is just as many problems with the physical side effects. For example, our bodies generally resist puberty while on some of these drugs. He said a lot of adults in their 20s are seeking physiological therapy because they are five and six years behind their friends in sexual maturity. It causes all kinds of relationship problems for the rest of their life. He also said many drugs cause physical problems that force kids into strange habits or what he called tics. Some drugs create symptoms of dry mouth, or something like that, and kids develop tics of swallowing or clearing their throat as a result. I asked him what he felt was a solution to the problem. He said that drugging kids now is so ingrained in our society that he couldnt think of a solution. He said even if kids get off drugs, our video game and TV culture would likely just fill in and cause new side effects. He said it is very unlikely that we will get back to a culture of being the kind of parents that kids need. I was surprised and saddened by his lack of hope. He does see Boy Scouts as a very positive activity for boys. Barry

>>I have recently taken a District Position as a Training Chair after causing much trouble over the real rules vs traditions.

>>Maybe dad needs to stay home and see what happens.

He is just acting in mature. It's common and someone he respects needs to talk with him before someone does get offened. I had 23 year old ASM who cussed around the boys when I wasn't around. He was just trying to be cool and we had a talk about, but it was a lawyer dad (eagle scout too) who came in a troop meeting with paperwork already filled out to sue the troop that got the 23 year old's attention. He acted like an adult around the boys after that. Barry

I must say that I really enjoyed working with scouts and scouter between the ages of 16 and 24. The ones that are still active are typically sharp and enthusiastic. They are also the right age for younger scouts to look up to in an older brother sort of way. We always tried to get an 18 to 21 year old as one of the adults on our High Adventure crews. They loved the perks of being an adult on the Philmont crews. I specifically looked for college age scouters to be the JLTC course director. And I personally found experienced scoutmasters to be the course Scoutmaster and the course director assistant. The assistant's real purpose was to be a mentor for the director with the understanding that the director was fully en charge and held fully responsible by the council for the course performance. I love working with that age group. Barry