Eagledad

>>Edit: I wonder....what is 'perverse' to a monkey?

Interesting civil discussion. I do want to add one point. >>Now, I have a degree in anthropology. History shows that there is nothing unnatural about homosexuality. It has been documented for thousands of years.

Yes, he can participate in Troop activities and still be a Webelos. I ran into this a lot with Packs who had full year programs for all their dens. He can't register in both unit, but if the unit leaders are willing, he can participate in both. Its kind of a hassle for the troop, but a lot of them do it all with Webelos Dens that want to start working with the troop even though they haven't had received their awards yet. If you want to try this, make sure everyone in both units understands whats going on so there isn't any slip ups like the troop turning in paperwork for the scout. Once a boy signs up for the troop, he can't receive any cub awards without going through a huge hassle. Barry

>>For those of you who might think extending the tax cuts to the millionaires will create jobs, well they have those cuts now. Where are the jobs?

>>A CoH should be just like a Troop meeting - attendance expected.

Most of my observations is attendence is a lot better when the scouts plan and run the courts of honor. Our scouts like to plan food and fun in our COHs. There goal is to have enough fun that brothers and sisters will have fun as well. Bingo was a big night. For you troops that force attendence, how are scouts punish when they don't show. On a side note, forcing scouts to do anything hides problems. If scouts aren't coming, something is wrong. Its like punishing scouts when they don't wear the expected uniform. If a scout doesn't wear a uniform correctly, 9 times out of 10 the scout has some personal problems outside of scouting. In general most scouts aren't bad, but they tend act out when something isn't right. Freedom to choose is the best way to indentify problems whether the problem is personal or in the troop program. Barry

>>That's why I think da Tea Party folks are denser than lead. A vote for tax cuts and smaller government must be accompanied by serious cuts to Social Security, Medicare, defense, etc.>That's why I think da Tea Party folks are denser than lead. A vote for tax cuts and smaller government must be accompanied by serious cuts to Social Security, Medicare, defense, etc.

When we had a couple over aggressive MB Counselor parents, we avoided confrontation with the parents by requiring all the troop's MB Counselors take our troop MBC training again. The training was just basically teaching what the BSA and troop committee expects from the counselors. Not that the two expectations are different, but it was the opportunity for the trainer to explain what the SM was not going to stand for Parent Child MB counseling abuse. It worked pretty good. We didnt forbide it, but we scrutinized it. We had one parent with two sons in the troop who tried to hide his manipulation of the system by not becoming a MBC himself and instead recruited friends and relatives to do to be his sons counselors. He would sign them up on his own then turn the paperwork in to the council. His sons were racking up badges pretty quick until we forced the counselors take our training. That scared them off. We then asked the parent to be our Advancement Chairman mentor so he would be forced to learn and work by the BSA guidelines. He turned out to be a pretty good chairman and we didnt have anymore parent troubles after him. Barry

Yes, but you have to give the SM a break, it's a hard responsibility. As you will learn in life, when you don't have experience to work from, you revert to theory. Most of the humble SMs on this forum will admit that theory rarely looks the same as experience. Once I was brought down to my knees by the failures of my theories, I understood that I needed to learn more from our troop activities than the scouts to begin to be a good scoutmaster. Your SM hasn't had enough time to learn that yet. The next best thing would be for you to do your well enough that he learns by watching you. You have a good plan, you will do well by training your SPL and PLs. If all goes well, you might even be training a SM as well. Sorry, New York is a bit far on motorcycle. But if you ever pass through going to Philmont, I will buy you lunch. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi platypus, I'm with John-in-kc, he has some good advice. Scouts are limited only by the adults. And it takes 3 yeas even for the best SMs to get the hang of their job. Adults just dont change that fast. So the small bite analogy is good. It appears you have respect by the troop, so you are going to have to be the voice (example) of reason. In that, do like John suggested and support the SPL. Help him learn from his experiences, struggles and all. Give him something positive he can take from the experiance. Set the example of good mentorship for even the adults to see, but without stepping on anyones toes. Be mature not confrontational. You may be the smartest guy in the room, but to the adults you are still the kid. They do have their pride to protect after all. Always listen, never yell for any reason and always walk. Then you will set the example of "calm". Something even adults admire. You are in a tough spot, but you and the troop can gain from it. And sadly enough, this is part of life, so learn the lessons from it and grow for your own future. I have enjoyed reading your post because you appear to be pretty sharp. I use to be the Council JLT Chairman and enjoyed working with many scouts just like you. You will do well in the future. Is your troop near Oklahoma? Barry

// It is just some increased regulation of an insurance industry that badly needed increased regulation to stop them from ripping off the public.// LOL Good one NJ, even my liberal friends had a good laugh with that one. Barry

RINOs are generally associated as liberal leaning Republicans ( U.S. Senator Olympia J. Snowe (R-Maine)). Tea party folks are not Associated with any party but latched on the Republican ticket this round to stop the present direction of Washington. Since Tea Party folks are more conservative in nature,they will never be confused as RINOs. From the Tea Party Web site: The movement's primary concerns include, but are not limited to, cutting back the size of government, lowering taxes, reducing wasteful spending, reducing the national debt and federal budget deficit, and adherence to an originalist interpretation of the United States Constitution. If the democrats ever step back toward the middle, they will see some Tea Party support. My personal observation is the Tea Party is a Neo Revolution by the common people. They are basically folks who didn't get involved in politics before, but got very motivated once the policies of the last 2 years were rammed through passage. Some folks say a core group of Tea Party type people have been around since the first Bush. It took Obama to get them organized into group with influence. Repelling Obamacare will keep them motivated for the near future. Barry

//The arbitrary mixing by adults// Who said that? Mixed age patrols do not equate to adult control, much less arbitrary. I'm sure there are some valid reasons for using same age patrols, but over controlling adults is not one. In fact the big problem with same aged patrols is they tend to require more adult interference than mixed age patrols because the patrols are less exposed to scouts with different experiences. The risk of over controlling adults is much greater in troops that use same age patrols, which is a common problem with new troops. Barry

Well you lost me Stosh, I'm a simple man, so maybe it's just me, but that is very confusing, analogy?, theory? It does appear you like to group your scouts by rank and advancement and that's a big difference between our program styles. I don't measure a scouts growth by their rank all that much, but I can see how same age patrols would work better in that style of program. I guess its all in the adults vision. Barry

A scout's growth is only limited by the quality of people in his immediate environment. The scouts in same age patrols only have scouts with the same experience as their own. I found that scouts in same age patrols grow at half the speed of mixed age patrols. And worse, typically troops with same age patrols have a lot of adult interaction to force thegrowth, usally by instruction. They have to because the other scouts aren't near by. Especially for troops that separate the patrols by 100 ft. or more. As for breaking up patrols for older scout adventures, we don't do that. Our adventure crews meet outside of troop and patrol activities and dissolve once the trek or adventure is over. I dont keep track now, but We probably average between 4to 6 temporary adventure crews a year while i was scoutmaster that have done everything from snow skiing to scuba in Mexico. And all ages are welcome provided the the scout is physically and mentally mature for the activity and there are no age restrictions like Philmont. Barry

//Would a large troop be more effective using mixed patrols or patrols by school grade? // For a large troop, same age patrols equate to a basically adult run program. Mixed ages can go either adult or boy run, but optimal boy run programs require mixed age patrols. There are many discussions in the archives on boy run and adult run. Barry

//My personal preference is to start a new troop in an area that has a mega-troop or to spin one off. Not because mega-troops are necessarily a bad thing (just another flavor of scoutin'), but because when the key adult(s) in a mega-troop move on or retire, those troops tend to collapse in size relatively quickly. So yeh really don't want all your scouting eggs in an area in one basket, so to speak. It's particularly problematic if one "mega" troop is killing off smaller programs, since that can leave no alternatives when the big program hits a downturn. I've seen mega-troops go from 100 to zero in less than three years after da loss of the SM.// I don't disagree on anything beavah says here, he is right. but one other bit of information that needs to be included is the troop that splits off typically struggles and most fail. And the other troop grows back to the size before it split. We found splitting is a gamble with odds the not in our favor. Not saying it shouldn't be done because it is a logical solution, but experiance has me swayed to lean toward leaving mega troops alone and put my energy into the new leadership a few years later. I admire beavh trying the other side of the coin. Also, I think folks get boy run and patrol method confused. That is a different discussion, but I was a SM of a very boy run troop that grew from 15 scouts to 95 scouts in seven years. There is no way a troop of 50 scouts or more can be boy run without the patrol method. Even then it is a huge challenge that I would not wish on anyone. I certianly would not strive to build such a program. We just had no choice. Barry

//Overall, I think BSA allows us a great deal of flexibility in what we do. Yeah, I agree that Cubs could certainly do more with outdoor adventure. Too often that program gets watered down into arts & crafts & Pinewood Derby heats. But there's simply not enough structure and training for den leaders and Cubmasters to teach them how to do outdoor adventure properly and safely - and that's more of a structural problem than a program one, IMO. We don't want to release several thousand untrained den leaders into state parks across the country building massive 10-foot-tall bonfires and teaching kids that all mushrooms are safe to eat. // Doesn't really matter as far as numbers go, the Cub program suffers from "too much overhead" on the adults, Not a lack of adventure. If you change the cub program to a three year program, I think you would see a 40percent inrease in the cub program inside 10 years, and 25 percent increase in the troops. If you want excited boys, you need excited parents. I am big fan of in adding more adventure at all the ages, but if you sit down with scouts who are not happy with scouts, it's not usually lack of adventure that is the problem. It's boredom and that is not the same. And I understand how us old coggers can apply our experiences to boys today and assume the problem is not enough of the activities we had in our day. But it's relative, they don't know what they are missing. They only know they are bored. If you want to relate that to needing more adventure, you are wrong. 4 out of 5 new Venturing programs fail in 5 years. The problem at the troop level is scouts get tired of being treated like boys. After puberty, scouts are no longer boys, they are adults and they know the differ difference. As I said before, the cub program is a simpler problem, "Adult burnout". But nobody has the courage to make the right fix there. Barry

Good discussion. I personally don't think adventure is the big problem. For Cub Scouts, the program is too hard for adults to maintain. We burn out adults by the third year. For troop ages, the first year of the troop experience is the BSA's worst year for loosing scouts and the cause is the big leap from being managed by adults to being managed by scouts. Its a problem that Scouting has always had. The following years is a simple matter of a boring program. You could blame that on adventure (or lack there of), but its more than that, its the inabiltiy of the program to challenge boys both mentally and physically at all ages. Adding more adventure will not fix that problem Barry

This is a good discussion and I think really good questions. Here are the questions I would ask for any scout to take most formal trainings like TLT. A Scout should take training only if: 1. If he wants to attend the class. 2. Hasnt taken the training before. There has been a shift of attitude in the last 20 years that scouts should get the basis of their leadership skills, or most skills for that matter, from formal training, not observation and experience. Its more important to understand that until puberty, our human ( and most animals) nature or instinct is to learn most of our behavior and skills by observing. Not by listening in a formal classroom style training environment but observation. In fact experts say we learn as much as 90 percent or our behavior just from observing those around us. Puberty is the line where our instinct switches from learning by observation, to applying skills for survival. I know that we generally dont worry about survival in our culture, but the instinct doesnt change. The important thing is the vast majority of the skills we use after puberty were learned by observation before puberty. I certainly saw this in our program when we tried different styles of training. So this leads back to the list: In question 1, a scout should not be forced to take training that he doesnt feel ready to take. If the training is required for an activity, leadership or advancement, the scout needs to make the choice and learn from his choice. In the real world, we have to complete a process to advance our position. The troop is the perfect place for a scout to learn that lesson. If a scout doesnt want to take Woods Tools Training, he should have to, but he cant use a knife. He will learn. In question 2, I learned through the years the only thing boys hate more than formal training is repeated formal training. Nothing like a bored boy disturbing the scouts around him because hes been there done that. If a PL is re-elected, he shouldnt have to take the TLT class for the position again, he should teach it. Also, teach only what the scouts need to grow. To many troops teach a lot of stuff the scouts already know because it was part of the corriculum they were using. Don't be afraid to take stuff out you don't need and add subjects in areas the scouts are struggling. Trust me, the scouts will respect your leadership for this. We slowly developed our program so that a scout was never required to repeat any training unless he showed a total lack of skill in that subject. So what does all this mean? It means that a troop program should aspire to as little formal leadership training as possible and instead develop the program structure to where younger scouts are exposed to skilled older scouts in action as much as possible. In fact, I taught Scoutmasters that training for the sake of teaching skills is a red flag that the troop program is not working well in those areas and should make attempts for changes. The troop leaders goal (youth and adult leadership) is shape the troop program so that a scout learns all his skills through program activities to perform at a maximum level instead of formal trainings like TLT. Of course that is next to impossible for any troop, but it should be the goal and requires the leadership to review their program performance to make changes where improvement is required. As I said, no troop is perfect and we all require some formal Training to supplement those imperfections. So the question is; when should we provide formal training? It should be provided when a scout needs to make a big step in skills faster than what simple observation would provide for a required minimum level of performance: >Getting a new responsibility like Patrol leader is a good example. Not giving a new Patrol Leader some kind of training is setting him up for failure, so we give him enough training to get him through the first six weeks. >Safety is also another place where formal training is required over learning from observation like the proper use of woods tools. >Joining a High Adventure Crew might require some training to get up to speed to function in the back county like canoeing. I have observed many times through the years that scouts 14 and older use at least 80 percent of what the observed up to that age to apply their skills. Scouts who didnt have good leadership skills in his older scout years usually werent exposed to good leadership in their early years. It is an interesting thing to observe and the primary reason I dont like same age patrols. A few other things we learning in our JLTs is the shorter the training period, the better. We started out with a full weekend TLT campout that over the years evolved to 12 hour overnight lock-in. The thing about camping is the boys do so much of it, they get bored with a training campout really fast. They dont have a good attitude about it. Doing training indoors changes the environment to something different and special. We found the scouts more attentive. We also found that boys can only absorb so much training, so two days is way too much. They have had enough by the end of the first day. So we eventually change our TLT curriculum to a 12 hours lock-in environment. They like that curriculum so much they started inviting friends from other troops. Our training for changes in leadership positions is only two hours long during a week night so that it doesnt interrupt their weekend. And two hours might even be too long. I know this was long reply, but I always like to give reasoning to justify my experience and advice. Plus, some folks arent getting enough sleep and this should do the trick Have a great week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

!!So I guess he's not all bad -- just all bad when it comes to policy, finance, etc. !! Says the guy in the state of the third highest dept. Barry

!!As far at the boy's doing the bookkeeping...I'd doubt it...it would be a help if they wrote neatly.!! We are only limited by those who put barriers in our paths. Our scouts do the bookkeeping and present all the badges. the Advacement Chair is only a mentor. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Our scouts pick two adults each month and put big writeups about them in the troop newsletter along with a nice gift from the scout office. That saves the COH and makes the newsletter more interesting. I certainly understand the committee chairs frustration, however most would be surprised to just how difficult it can be remembering to recognize everyone who feels they need to be recognized. Forgetting a scout when I was CM was a big fear for me. And it happen a lot with 120 cubs. I ran into a friend whose husband is a SM and was a den leader herself a few years earlier when I was CM. She appologized for all the late night calls to me when I was CM. She now understood just how many calls a CM and SM get from folks for those things they might have forgotten the night before. My suggestion for eng is a little forgiveness and a quiet humble way of helping the SM next time. I am pretty sure the SM meant no offense and does appreciate the advancement chairs hard work. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Here is what I learned to getting the most impact from the Scouting For Food Community Service Project: make it a one day event. Infact, make it just a morning event. Reasons why: 1. Gives the Scouts an opportunity to meet and members of the community. Cubs Scouts are very cute. 2. Give the folks of the community a chance to meet Scouts at their best, community service. Next best thing to being help across the street. 3. Cheapest and best method of marketing for the local scouting program. 4. You will get the most food because folks few compelled to give when confronted in person. 5. Takes the least amount of the adults time and saves a lot of gas. 6. Takes the least amount of District volunteers time and it is done in one weekend. I learned all these things over the 15 years of working with the program. It makes no sense to me that we send scouts to the doors of our community without them ever meeting those folks. The first year our pack tried the idea of a one day collection by sending two scouts to each door, our pack gathered more food than the rest of the district, so I was told. But much more important, our scouts and our community met each other and they enjoyed it. Our Cubs talked about this for weeks because they had so much fun. People are interesting and cubs are curious, that mix makes for a great scouting day. The Boy Scouts dont seem to have as much fun, but they do enjoy it only taking four hours of one day. To make the day even more fun, we brought donuts and hot chocolate. When I finally talked our district into trying a one day food gathering, it turn out so successful and they liked it enough to try and convince Council to do it that way next yet. But, as with many things, politics got involved and the BSA had to back out from the partner who also sponsored the event. It was not the BSAs fault and all agree the departure was best. Make it a great event, make it only one day long. I know it sounds silly, but it works. Barry

Depends really on your scouts needs and program I think. We have had many special needs scouts and like Stosh, we encourage the Patrol members take care of each other. We have also had a couple special scouts that required a more specific effort of assistance for the scouts safety. That assistance can be very very demanding. We have never used a TG or SM assigned POR for scouts who assist a special scouts, but I certainly wouldnt have trouble with considering the idea, it just never came up for our situations. I dont agree with the smoke and mirror patch comment. There are several ways to accomplish the same task with equal performance. A choice of ideas are what forums are good for. Barry