Eagledad

// To me such a flirtation would constitute a lie.// Flirtation to a large degree is instinctive and you don't even know you are doing it. Women in their minstrel cycle talk different, walk different and have many other physical signs that are so small that we don't consciously know that it is happening. Men unconsciously pick up on these signs of natural flirtations and react in their own instinctive acts of flirtation. Instinctively women have the ability to unconsciously determine if they are physically compatable from the signs that man unconsciouly give off. Man has the ability to flirt even when instinct is not triggering the action or reaction. Many times that leads to a slap in the face. A man who looses his testicles changes his sexuality. He will be different both in sexual self desires and in his instinctive actions. Mostly he will lack in both. If he were an animal, he would likely die young for lack of aggressiness to hunt and protect himself. Man has the added trait of compassion, which gives him the will to consciously protect the weak. Barry

I have no trouble with pop tarts and eggs, pop tarts and oatmeal or even pop tarts and sausages. We had pop tarts at Philmont. The objective of cooking meals is using teamwork to accomplish the task. Pop tarts by themselves do not require teamwork. Barry

The no sheath knife restriction is a political correctness restriction that was motivated back when big knives was popular on movies such as Rambo. Cheap big sheath knives were cheap and easy to get during their popularity then. The restriction was only intended to prevent a negative image for the BSA. Had nothing to do with past safety experiances. Sheaf kind of got caught in the middle of the "big" fear. My problem with the comment was comparing it to porn, smoking and alcohol. Barry

//I'd save banning for the big no-no items: Alcohol, tobacco, non-folding shealth knives, porn, etc...// Ok, what's the big deal with sheath knives? I mean to put it in the same class as alcohol or PORN. We are still talking about boy scouts aren't we? Barry

//Eagle793 remined me of some other items that were banned; "Anything you wouldn't want your mother to see you with."// This all I remember banning. PLC didn't like hand held video games and while the adults agreed, it was the PLC that created and inforced that restriction. I never asked why. Cell phones were just coming in then and not yet a problem. Food wasn't to much of a problem because we require all meals except lunch be cooked. Soda pop was a bit of a problem for a little while, we fixed that by requiring it be brought only in 2 liter bottles. We are basically a back packing troop, and 2 liter bottles are hard to transport and keep cold. I don't like to restrict scouts, I like them making choices. Kind of funny with the soda pop, because of the hassle of 2 liter bottles, patrols eventually quit bringing pop. Scouts two years down the road just thought it was restricted from campouts. Barry

I am not a fan of dumping it in their lap because it will fail 95% of the time and you will loose at least half of the new scouts. I am a fan of sitting down with the PLC and working on this as a team. Adults seeking the help of the PLC and the PLC needing the help of the adults to make it work. There is no one way of doing this, I have been there and done that several times, so let me throw out some thoughts to allow the others to contribute: First, if mixed age patrols is the route you want to try, then you need to know why so you can sell it to the PLC. The PLC doesnt have the experience to try something different. Different is hard, different is a lot of work, so if you are asking for something different, they need a vision that rewards their hard work. There are plenty of us here who are big fans of mixed age patrols, so that shouldnt be hard. But you need a vision to shoot for. If I were you, I would first start by mixing your two younger patrols let them be the catalyst to your mixed age troop program. Both groups are enthusiastic and they are young enough to change toward your vision. Ask the PLC to create five or six new patrols with the two age groups mixed with the idea that these will be the permanent patrols forever. They are the pioneers for your troops future. New Patrols names, yells, flags and so on. You will find them pretty excited about this actually. I found scouts 14 and older dont like change and its best to just let them finish their program as best they can. It kind of sounds like they are already doing that. It wouldnt hurt to let the old ones help if they want to be part of the fun, but my experience is most wont. Now, we found that the NSPs are ready to break up after six months. My experience is if you still have new scouts after summer camp, you have them for the next few years. So we usually merge them into the regular patrols anytime after summer camp through September. Folks are probably wondering what I looked for to know when the scouts were ready to be merged. It is growth. I found that New Boys learned all they could learn in their patrols with in six months. Since there are now experienced older guys to learn from, they had learned just about all. Once they start to get bored, they get into trouble or stop showing up. How we mixed them was we ask the existing patrols to shop for new scouts and we ask the new scouts to watch the regular patrols to see which ones they wanted to join. If you get them doing this early, they all pretty much know what they want to do after a couple months. We also asked them to list the friends they wanted to go with them and rarely did any scout pick more than one. We didnt set any limits, but I found it to be a myth that scouts want to stick together with the whole patrol. But, we also told the new scouts that if they wanted to stay together and start their own patrol, they certainly could do that. BUT, they had to recruit at least three older scouts into their patrol and one of them older scouts had to be Patrol Leader. I know that goes against some of the boy run stuff wee talk about here, but growth comes from observing older scouts in action. If you dont have that, they dont grow. Trust me, I tried it many times. Dont worry about patrol size, it will balance out. Dont worry about older scouts dropping out, the more older scouts, the better. Besides, you will have a different situation to deal with when older scouts want more mature activities to keep them interested. For right now, dont worry about patrol size, instead focus on boy growth. Dont worry about rank either, worry about boy growth. Here is what I mean, if your scouts cook the same meals over and over, they arent learning knew ideas, they are doing what is easy. They need a change. Older scouts usually carry a lot of new ideas with them. New scouts watch the older scouts come up with new menus and crazy new ideas. Patrols should come to the assemblies on time, they should be able to cook, eat, and clean up in time for the activities. These are all measurements of patrol function and growth. So you can see why rank doesnt really mean anything. If you do this right, you will have successful patrols in about a year, but it takes two years for the PLC to get in a groove of merging scouts, and three years for the troop to really function without the adults. Also, we found the bigger the troop, the hard the change. Its a momentum thing, the bigger the force of change, the bigger the force of resistance. But, if you have a firm vision that the scouts can see, they will make it and they will have fun at the same time. In the long run, you will find mixed age patrols will grow faster in independence than the adults in letting go. Once they boys get going, the growth curve almost seems to go strait up. And that is the most rewarding experience for an adult. In about three years, you will start to see that the adults dont need to hang around, except to watch the fun. But your key is this first group that you mixed together. Your pioneers will grow up to be the most confident young men you will ever know. They will be great leaders in other activities as well. OA, School and sports. They cant help it, they are truly learning by experience. I know that is a lot, but we humans learn the most by failures, not successes. We failed a lot before we succeeded. It was the best time of my life. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I do see CPA's and business folks all the time in my line of work and have an MBA myself. You're muddling a bunch of things up.

Beavs is left of center in most of his stuff on this forum. But I think his reference datum for conservative is skewed to the left in Minnesota compared to most rest of the country. To be honest, I wonder if this thread is just the typical emotional bias I see from beav and others on this forum. Its all the republican fault. Those mean republicans and concervatives. I have come to know those few bashers that have nothing good to say about Republicans, conservatives and Christians on this forum. Forums have allowed us to express in text what we wouldn't dare say to our faces. I dont consider this forum friendly by any means and I still wonder about some folks definition of friendly, courteous, kind. History shows a drop in taxes increases government coffers, where as adding tax on the people has the opposite effect. In fact, the poor seem to get the worse of tax increases because their jobs go first and their places they shop tend to go out of business first. Bush got us out of a mess in the early 2000s with his tax cuts, but unfortunately the continued government spending increases the last few years out paced the benefits of the tax cuts and here are. Again, talk to any CPA and you will learn of the huge burden that will be placed on all of us, but especially small businesses. My wife has several small business clients and they are not optimistic (very scared) of the future and are certainly not going to invest in new equipment or personel until they see the possibility of a return. They are in survival mode. The changes in the next few months are pretty dramatic and it will be a scary time for ALL of us. It really is a top down problem. My son, the school teacher, manages a swimming pool service in the summer time for neighborhood pools. He has already been told that about a forth to half of the neighborhoods are considering closing their pools or not using his companies services because they are have less dues from a decrease of families in the neighborhoods. They took a big hit when minimum wage increased and now this could be the last straw for summer time swimming in neighborhoods. So my son is affected a lot and may not even have a summer job next year. Teachers dont make a lot as it is. He employs about 30 teenage lifeguards that may not have a job next summer. We will see, but the company says they see an increase of 25% at least from the changes coming next year. You think the economy is rebounding? I dont get where you see that, call a friend in Florida for a dose of reality. And just wait a few months, its going to get worse, even in Minnesota. Its as simple as no money to spend, no jobs. No jobs, not money to spend. Or is it that you think the government will do a better job with the taxes than the companies. And you think that because the government has been so impressive the last few years. Barry

>>So these days, I'm leaning more toward education. "When you're with other people, it's not courteous to be using your phone. It says you don't care about the people you're with".

Eagle92 is right on with all his post in this thread. I couldnt add anything to his list except that my observation of an outstanding patrol is they are a happy patrol. Happy to the point of sticking out in fact. I also agree with him on the NYLT or any district or council JLT coruse. Simply having the best of the best together isnt enough to guarantee an outstanding patrol. Our JLTC (previous to NYLT) was so condensed with activities, the scouts had little time to bond and really become a team. I also agree that the happiest patrols by my observation are the mixed age patrols because the scouts bond by serving each other. Barry

I had several ACMs for the very reason you mentioned. Barry

//But after they've debriefed the situation and understood the ramifications, I might say from the background that there might be some food I store in my truck for emergency situations.// Our guys borrowed food from other patrols or shopped on the way to camp. We did carry extra food, but that was a last resort for that one patrol that just could not figure it out. That never happened. I can't remember a scout getting very upset about these things, infact they seem to take pride in getting themselves out of their problems. But they also knew that what was expected of them and that the adults weren't going to get mad about it. One patrol learned how to cook on a campfire after they forgot their stove. They enjoyed it so much that they only used a stove wheres fires werent permitted. I always enjoyed watching new scouts setting up tents in the dark while it rained. That one small experience gave them the confidence to take on the world. I heard many of them brag to their parents about it after the campout. Life should be an adventure, even in our struggles. The leadership experience should be the same. What they didn't understand was the adults saw these situations as opportunities. The more they struggled, the more they learned. And the more they learned, the more they liked scouting. Many of our older scouts were a lot better at scouting than our adults. Barry

It's not something that can change quickly, but the saying goes "Don't do anything for a scout he can do for himself". Once they learn you won't just give them the answer, they will start to take charge. Or they will fail, which ever is easier. Make sure failure is painful. Barry

//)Since pre-planning to get correct info is not anything they worry about, tell them it is not needed for insurance, and then the question is what is the point of the whole thing.// It is procedure and the right thing to do. The boys need to learn to follow rules even if the rule doesn't make sense. Our PLC fills out all our tour permits. Barry

90 percent of the units in our council believe tour permits are required for insurance because that is how it is taught in training. I don't know if that is on purpose or just the assumption that doesn't get corrected, but I learned it correctly on a forum like this one. Barry

Good boy run units have two things that make them successful; goals or vision for all their scouts, and the understanding that the scouts have to grow from their experience from the scouting activities, not classroom instruction or standup lectures. I have watched many troops that were boy run, but the scouts didn't grow much because the adults didn't have a long range goal for their scouts. A lot of adults think Eagle or SPL are good goals, but realistactly those are not the dreams of all scouts and should not be set by adults. The program needs to be driven toward more noble goals that requires scouts working and relying on each to rah the goals. It's easy to force all patrols 100ft apart, but if the scouts don't become a team and grow from their participation in patrol and troop activities, they will get bored and move on. As I said before, the are just some principles of nature that are hard to change without interference from the adults in boy run troop. A patrol of young scouts the same age don't do very in a boy run program without a lot of help from the adults. And, boys under 14 do not enjoy true leadership in a boy run troop without a lot of help from the adults. The more the adults are involved in the scouts activities, the less boy run troop is. So if you have the older scouts in your troop, try to work around those 2 principles as much as you can. If you don't have the older scouts yet, don't ignore the vision and strive to build independent functional patrols. Eagle92, I think I learned more about from your last post than all the others. Barry

When I look back on my scouting experience as a youth and as an adult, Scouting is the one place I know where everyone excepts you for who you are. At least that is my experience. The program is also a broad enough that every boy can find something he is good at. Back when Camporees were really competative and troops were ranked by where they place in the last camporee, the difference in winning was a matter of a few seconds. We were really good at skills back then because you carried your troop and patrol tankings for a year. Well it turned out that was very good at knots and lashings, so I was the guy who walked around checking all my patrol mates knots during knot tieing events. I didn't tie the knots, I checked everyone elses knots. You have to understand that we had mixed age patrols with several patrol members old enough to drive. So for a skinny 11 year old kid to be accepted enough where the old guys could be told their knots were wrong was a pretty big deal. Barry

You are right to some degree I guess, but the reason activist attacked traditional heteralsexual marriage was to dilute the image of a traditional family. They have been chiseling away at religious and traditional institutions that impede the general acceptance of homosexuality as immoral or abnormal. That is why the BSA was such a big target. As pack points out, traditional marriages are in decline. This kind of goes along with the earlier discussion that homosexuality isnt so much the primary cause of the decline of morality in our culture as it is a major indicator of the growth or peaking of immorality. What next, a reality shows of polygamy? Barry

>>Boy Scout troops are also (theoretically) boy led. If practice makes perfect, then the Boy Scouts should be getting a whole lot more practice leading and planning than the Girl Scouts do.

Our guys just walk, never heard a complaint, but bugles are not a bad idea. There was one time I did think 300 ft was to far, a scout came and found me in the middle of a very cold below zero night because his buddy got the stomach flu. There was no moon, lots of snow and lots of low tree branches. I tought I would never find his tent. Kind of reminds me of story about the general rule of out-houses. In the day, out-houses were generally located 100 ft from the house. Most folks felt it was 100ft to close in the summer and 100ft to far in the winter. Barry

LOL whoops Thanks John Stupid ipad

//These are issues addressed in the Ten Commandments, by countless philosophers, in Victorian England, and in nearly any other culture in time or place we look.// Exactly what I just said. Go read my first reply to you. The difference between us is I do look at the facts and see where the conclusion falls out. You want your conclusion and choose to ignore what doest fit. Barry

//Eagledad, care to share your explanation for what you think 'natural' is?// Sure I believe natural sex for all critters is the instinctive act to appropriate. I believe only humans have sex without the desire to appropriate. I believe sex without the desire to appropriate is only a self serving act for pleasure or emotion and not natural. I don't know why two animals of the same gender act in what appears to be sex, but i dont think it is sex because they arent trying to appropriate. I dont think it is for pleasure, but I do think it is instinctive. Well i do know why dogs do, it's an instinctive position of dominance for both genders, which might be the explanation for most animals. Barry Barry

//Homosexuality is natural because it is found in nature.// I don't agree.

>>The nature of theories is to base them upon facts, but they remain theories because the facts of them cannot be proven yet or at all.