Eagledad

Well said. I'm not sure where I stand with putting some burden of the compensation on everyone for the bad acting of a very few. That is a worthy discussion. But, the risk is that the inconvenience is the total loss of the BSA. I think it reflects the unfairness of the situation. Barry

OK, but somehow the splits loose posts. Or I just don't see the new threads. If that is the case, I apologize. I do agree with the splitting, but this is like the gay issue years back, it's complicated and so intertwined that one specific thread is almost next to impossible. Barry

Really! How! As I said, elephant in the room. Yep, standard blow off when emotional reasoning isn't convincing. I'm reasonable, Most here are reasonable. Convince us BSA is truly at fault. Here is you problem with me and several of us, I was heavily involved with the BSA for over 30 years at both the youth and adult ages and at all levels of administration. I worked and trained with thousands of adults and scouts. I never heard of an act sexual abuse. Now, I'm not so naïve to believe it didn't happen, and that the numbers are in the hundreds over the many dozens of years. But, I personally never heard of one act of sexual abuse from adults or scouts during my long scouting experience. So, why should I believe a respected noble youth program over a century old should be killed without convincing evidence the organization as a whole is as negligent as you suggest? Now, you may say that just because I never heard of an sexual abuse instance, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. My response is that I was pretty heavily networked in the organization and I feel my experience in general represents the nature of the BSA and this subject overall. Barry

And giving them full blame to the point of non existence is just as insane. Ironically, you want to make every scout today, and the future, victims. And there it is, deep pockets. I have no trouble with the truth that the BSA is the target because they are the only capable source of compensation for sexual victims. At least that would be honest. I don't believe that fair, and that is the intellectual conversation that you are scared to have. But, it is the elephant in the room. Barry

This is not a fair conversation. Nobody here wishes you ill will, in fact just the opposite. This is not about us against them, as a couple here keep suggesting, it's about question of fairness over the future of a century old youth organization.. But, every time the discussion veers toward that question, the mod steps in and reformates (deletes) that part of the discussion and then says stick to the subject. Then, the thread starts out away from the question of fairness, but eventually works it's way back, AGAIN. I believe many of the members here want to express a frustration. But, not the moderator. Barry

One would only have to list the percentage of male adults to discount sexual abuse risks in the GSUSA. In general, fathers are not very welcome. That is their real YP, something that the BSA, or most other youth scouting organizations can't do. Barry

Yes, but it's easy to argue if they wanted. How many adults haven't rode a bicycle in five years, yet do they still have the skill? Does the current course change every year? And, if the adults are practicing youth protection all the time, does the "current" training have significant meaning in the field? I have deal with this same issue here at work. We take a lot of annual training that hasn't changed in 15 years, but the managers are held accountable to our participation, so we have to repeat it, over and over. And because of the anti-BSA folks we see even here on the forum, a pre-testout is probably out of the question. Barry

I'm sitting here thinking about the families who struggled with funds and eventually chose to leave the program. In many cases it wasn't the funding that drove them off, it was the participation expected of the parents time. The real issue is that parents of low income families don't have a lot of time to participate or volunteer. Funds (lack of) are the easy excuse, but not the reason. I saw this a lot with Tiger families. I remember one mother who was nervous about her deaf son joining our troop. She felt compelled to participate to insure he would be safe in our program. That was despite our deaf Eagle Scout and his parents insuring her that we worked well with deaf scouts. Funding was difficult for her, but she was assured that it wasn't a problem for the unit. It was her lack of time that eventually motivated her to withdraw the whole family. Barry

I can't recall anyone saying that scouting was a bargain, poor choice of words. But, they will say the value of what they got from scouting is worth the price. Still, I know the cost can be intimidating. Our units, district, and council, always had scholarship funds available FOR ANYONE that wanted to participate, but was limited by their funds. If families wanted to participate, funding is there. But, in general, the families that ask for help were the ones that felt the program was worth the asking. Same goes with the families that could afford the cost. If scouting has to measured as a bargain from a funding perspective, then it has to show value from participation. While I could go on and on about the value of growth and character (I'm pretty good at it), National got a lot of traction from the Eagle. What is the Eagle worth? A lot apparently. While the analysis does paint a picture, the program still is one of the largest youth programs in the world. When the Canadian Scouts followed the program that was much the same as the BSA program, it was the largest youth program in the world. So, in context, it's worth it. Good scouting isn't cheap, but it has value. Of course now the cost is much much higher and the challenges much much greater. Ironically, I think the efforts to make the program affordable for all would kill the spirit of what makes it valuable. It killed Canadian Scouts. Barry

We had a similar situation in our district 25 years ago. Everyone knew about it, but they couldn’t do anything because all adults involved were consenting to the situation. The troop and charter liked the guy as a SM, so council didn’t want to get in litigation over it. Council found a reason to kick him out when someone witnesses him offering a scout a beer. Barry

If the BSA is taken out, history will show it as a victim of this culture. The noble reputation won’t change and it will be talked about with envy for many years. I’ve passed along countless stories of my dads scouting adventures during WWII. I’ve heard my sons pass along mine, as well as their own. My grandkids will pass them along as well. A fitting legacy for a great program. Barry

I never said you shouldn't be here, I said, "why are you here?". Meaning, what do you want from this forum? The answer is not clear to me. I wasn't attacking, I was seeking clarity. I didn't word it well, my bad. And what are your boundaries. You keep, let's say, moving the goal posts. Let's keep this simple so that we know when each know the boundary's; in one (just one) simple sentence, what do you want from this thread. Honestly, I think you will struggle with your boundaries more than us. What does that mean? Who is WE? Sounds like a scorched earth mission? Is that what you came to this forum to get? Barry

But, your off topic post is responding to your own off topic posts. When your post are out of bounds, should you not expect opposing responses? Fuel on the Fire? Saying nothing sometime has the most positive effect in keeping the discussion strait. Barry

It's a scary world for kids today. I heard a statistic that percentage of kids born in a single parent family in the 1950s was something less than a quarter of today. We had a lot of scouts who struggled in their personal lives, but as a scout leader, I found divorce by far to be the most common contributor for scouts personal suffering. Something like 50% of our nations children come from divorced parents. The statistics of the struggling behaviors for adults who were children of divorced families is heart wrenching. But, the culture just seems to keep piling on our youth. The issue with finding more and more ways to protect scouts in the program from predators is that the solutions are turning scout units into afterschool daycare programs for teenagers. Nothing healthy about that, and why would they even want to join. Barry

Suggesting that the loss of scouting for future youth is not a form of moral loss to the culture (my words for abuse) is to suggest the program itself does not promote moral and character growth. That would mean that the BSA mission of " to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." is not valid. I have personally witnessed in my own personal observations of many scouts who came to scouting to get away from abusive, harmful and stressful environments in their personal lives. They craved a place where they could fairly practice ethical and moral choices in a safe environment so they could learn and grow in the values of morality and ethics. Many found their scouting unit to be a refuge from their persona lives. Those scouts later became productive adults with families and members of the community. If I witness such accomplishments from scouting in my very tiny limited world, how much greater when spread across the whole program? How many youth with abusive personal lives in the future will not have the option of scouting to give them a practice of moral and ethical decisions within community of like minded companions or even a refuge were they can express themselves. I believe a loss of BSA scouting will at the very least take away the possibility of improving morality and ethics of the culture of the nation, much less of the community. In fact, I can't think of any youth program that is even close equal to providing providing youth the opportunity of the BSA mission and vision. Barry

Again, I can't see it. I believe they may have data in the areas they have more direct control like the MBs. But not unit level unless the units were more forthcoming. I was told (unofficially) about 25 years ago that the biggest source of abuse in the BSA was MB counselors. Which, made sense at the time because youth protection policies where just starting to include MB counselors. I could see some better data their because counsels have a little more control at the level of the program. National could have more data, but it would surprise me. Barry

All of your points may be part of the reason. My observation of the BSA bureaucratic and managing functions of the organization is that they aren't organized or efficient enough to acquire such data. How much of abuse calls are actually abuse and not just threats by parents to get their way. It's a lot. Or, how much real abuse is handled within the unit and never reported outside the unit. Again it's a lot. What one parent's definition of abuse is another parents idea of discipline. Very common in sports also. And then, how can that even be categorized? I have a great deal of experience with BSA membership data (or lack of), I can't even fathom getting the kind abuse data being suggested here. National just isn't that efficient. Barry

We learned the hard way that sometimes the best reaction to bad behavior is to quietly ask the scout to call their parents. They always made the call. Not as a punishment, but for a period of calm. Many times bad behavior (really bad decisions I guess) requires time for thought instead of instant reaction. Many of the scouts felt calling parents was a punishment. But, they also knew it was a last resort and they pushed too far. Once they were asked to make the call, there was no going back. And it wasn't just the adults, the senior scouts could make the decision. They rarely did without first talking to the SM. But, as inquisitivescouter pointed out, sometimes the real problem is at home. That is a hard thing to figure out. There are all kinds of signs, but the adults just need to watch. I knew one scout had a bad day because he didn't wear his uniform. He always wore it with pride. Instead of asking why he didn't wear it, I asked if everything was OK. He broke down explaining that his parents just told him they were getting divorce. Another scout was lashing out verbally and it turned out his mom decided to marry a boy friend he didn't like. Another scout was being picked on by his classmates at school. Many of these scouts live complicated lives and we need to be a patient refuge. Barry

Yes, you are right. When parents visited our troop, I told them that the troop (troops in general) is a safe place. Most misinterpret that to mean that scouts are safe from physical and mental harm, but I explain what it really means is scouts are safe from persecution for their bad decisions. The nature of learning and maturing from wrong decisions is making wrong decisions. The challenge for the adults is accepting wrong decisions as growth toward good character, not bad character in of itself. Most adults find that a hard challenge because our parenting nature is to coach change into our children whether our kids want to change or not. Adults have to learn to not react so that the scouts are behaving for the adults (meaning they hide their true behavior in fear of adult anger). But instead practice understanding why the made the bad decision based from the Scout Law and change so that they make good decisions in the future. Truth is that 95% of a scout bad decisions aren't harmful to those around them, they are just in conflict with doing their best to be friendly, courteous, kind........ And, we turn into what we practice, not what we preach. If the scouts make continued bad decisions on the little things like proper wearing uniform, saying something unkind, refusing to help when it is expected, then they continue that habit in their bigger decisions that do apply that can be harmful to those around them. See, Scouting Spirt is simply just thinking of others before ourselves. That's all. Once we humans start processing our thoughts and decisions with those around us first, then rarely are decisions bad. The Oath says "do our best and our duty to god first, our county next, then others, by obey the scout law. Then we are to take care of ourselves last in that process. But, we find that when we take care of everyone else first, we by default take care of ourselves. I know it's not as easy as that sounds. We adults carry a lot of baggage and habits are hard to change. Adult's learn how to be mentors instead of coaches. As the troop culture matures, the Scoutmaster finds that as the scouts take more responsibility for the actions, then the bad decisions brought forward become more challenging. And, it is usually challenging for the adults as well. Many times the knee jerk reactions to bad behavior is to create new polices and rules that punish everyone for one bad decision. Adults need to learn how to get the one person to identify why they make the bad decision and identify how they should change. Some bad decisions are harmful and need more thought on dealing with the bad action. The adults should work with the senior scouts on ways to handle and correct the bad decisions. Everyone learns to trust and lean on each other to work toward solutions. That is how we want our scouts to be when they have families and become community leaders. Barry

No, not all is related to child safety. My teacher kids tell me many of the safe guards and policies are for protecting the teachers. Kids aren't stupid, they know how to take advantage of a system and some are willing. Scouting is becoming a thing of the past because the success of the program relies on trust. Even this discussion is how to undermine that process. Scouting is a practice of applying the Scout Oath and Law instead of rules and policies. The culture (or is it counter-culture) wants rules and polices. Barry

More than once I took a scout home after a campout because their parents never showed up. It only happen once for that scout because it was one of the few times the parent had to meet a grumpy scoutmaster. Barry

Hmm, as a former coach, I had to deal with more abuse than in scouting. You folks are thinking sexual abuse, but I think in the context of adult power over the youth. I have seen a lot of abuse, or near abuse, when coaches loose their temper at the players, But sometime flare ups are at each other, which is scary in of itself for youth. My older son quit soccer from two coaches of apposing teams got into a fist fight. And, this was in front of other parents. And it may not even be tempers, but adults applying their power on the players by just yelling to get them to perform certain actions for the sport. The most troubling abuse case I had to personally deal with in the BSA was the adult who last his temper at a scout and physically hit him. Not in a physically harmful way, but very mentality upsetting for the scout and those around him. That adult was asked to leave, but it had nothing to do with sex. I don't know, seems the discussions here are worst case scenarios of rare and unlikely acts from adults ignoring the more common likely acts. Barry

You are correct. Barry

MattR has something here. Most folks don’t realize that the SM is selected by the committee. I encouraged all the CC’s in our district, and in WB, to take the SM Fundamentals course so they would understand the Patrol Method vision and the SMs main objective. The CC has the power of the units program. While I was the District Membership Chairman, I was tasked with counseling struggling Cub, troop, and Venturing units. In almost all cases, the common root problem was the committee did not know or understand the mission and vision of the program. As a result, adult leaders didn’t understand the tasks required to function as a team. If the committee does not pick a patrol method SM, they won’t get a patrol method program. By the way, learning to work as a team is the main objective of Woodbadge. Anyway, once they understood their objective, the adults stopped running around clueless and started working mainly on the tasks expected of them. And, they enjoyed the program more. All this to say; work a ticket to be the CC. Then find adults who support your vision. Ticket items like visiting other unit committees to learn better habits.. Visit Scoutmasters with a good patrol method boy run reputation. Take SM Fundamentals and other courses. Become an expert of your vision and the skills to manage and support that program. If you become a trusted committee member, you will likely get asked to be the troop leader. Then the world is yours. I know what you are thinking, that would take years, but I find that people with passion, vision, and know how, climb the ladder very fast. And it can be a lot of fun. Barry

I agree with David CO. When a scout joined the troop, I told the Scout in our first conference that I had total trust in him and it was up to him to change that trust. The problem with adult leaders in many troops is they tend to think of 11 years olds and 11 year old boys instead of adults with lesser experience. Truth is we don't know the maturity or life experiences of new scouts, so why assume they aren't trustworthy. New employees of a company are typically trusted with the responsibility to change when they make wrong decisions in their work. Inexperienced often start their scouter career with the parenting habit of verbally correcting scouts of their wrong decisions. But, that is a bad habit in a program where the scouts are supposed to responsibly correct themselves when they make wrong decisions. I HATE the term "Boys will be Boys", because that is a generalized term that demeans the character of all youth and their behavior, and quite frankly states that "Adults will be boys", since they are role-models by default. Along with this, I instruct adults to expect the best in scouts and never ever show anger with wrong behavior. Show only disappointment. Scouts despise adult anger in a patrol method troop because that is condescending hypocritical reaction goes against the ideal of scouts are on their own to learn from their mistakes. Scouts don't change their behavior to prevent adult anger, the hide it. But, they respect disappointment because in most cases, that is a quiet one-on-one reaction without the condescending action from a superior. Disappointment is how mature adults react to bad decision makers of all ages. It's how we want the older scouts to react with younger scouts and Patrol Leaders to act with their patrol mates. Best place in the world to practice for real life. And, more often that not, the scout will be harder on themselves when they feel they let the other person down. When scouts trust that they are safe from condescending anger and correction, they don't hide their behavior in fear, they present it in the open for affirmation. But, they must feel they are being trusted as equals with the adults and other scouts to feel safe. Are the bad decisions of the adults treated the same way. Role modeling disappointment is the most powerful teacher for growth. Barry