Eagledad

My veterinarian told me the reason chose veterinary school instead of med school was he didn't want to deal with people. Little did he know when he made that decision that pet owners can be more demanding and unreasonable. Very few volunteers think about the difficulties of working with other volunteers, and parents. We just believe everyone is this thing for the same reason and all of us will get along. My wife logged that we got at least one parent complaint call every night for the first two years I was Scoutmaster. Oh, I have many many other stories of adults acting badly from the Cub days to my volunteering at the council level. I just used the Scoutmaster example for reference. I don't regret my time as a Scout Leader because I have so many many wonderful memories. But, I have many bad ones too. For some of us, the passion pushed us through. But, there certainly aren't enough of us to say that. Thank you for all your giving. Barry

We had one campout where one patrol only had one scout. It wasn't planned that way, but the other scouts bailed out Friday of that week for one reason or another. The scout had the patrol food, so he said, why not. He got a big ovation from the other patrols at the end of camp before loading cars to go home. He had a lot of fun. Barry

OK, it's your troop. Also, they don't have to do big activities. Meeting for a movie (covid?) might be fun to organize. As I said, its about quality of the BSA mission. Taking a break my be just that. Barry

Change, or not, is really about program quality. Not, trying to conform with lacking resources. Can you improve on "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law" by being more active in the summer months. I don't know, but, if let's say you wanted to try a month where the patrols propose, plan and run a patrol campout, or activity, giving them more practice taking full autonomy of their program, as an attempt to give them more opportunities to make ethical and moral decisions, then likely you will not meet a lot of resistance. True, summer brings the challenges of family vacations, but a patrol of 2 (or even one) can have a really great experience planning their own campout. And, in our own experiences where we needed more adults for YP requirements, we have asked non leader parents to tag along, suggesting to both the scouts and their parents that the scouts take good care of the parents because they don't have clue. My 37 year old son was reflecting last week on a similar experience his patrol had at Philmont when he was a scout. It was summer, their crew needed adults and none of the leaders where available because we had three HA crews that summer. We talked two parents on going on an experience of a lifetime where their sons. .Everyone had a great time. I not telling you what to do, you know your troop best. But, there are ideas if you want to consider trying more program in the summer. Ironically, our scouts wanted to be SPL in the summer because we let them have total leadership over the troop at summer camp. It is a full time job and they wear themselves out, but they also value the experience, and we pay their way to camp. But, on the other side of that, the ASPL gets the opportunity to be SPL for a few weeks while the SPL takes a well deserved break. And, other scouts get opportunities to lead with the High Adventure activities as well as the troop. Lots of opportunities for scouts to get some leadership experience. Even in a minimal program. Barry

Always trying to seal the deal by throwing out the self-righteous card. I guess if that is the only way you can get the last word, well, good for you. What value did that last sentence add to the rest of the post. There is no integrity in leaning on using shame to try and get your way. You say you support the BSA, but you can't even present your opinion without dishonest bias against the BSA. Something doesn't fit here. I struggle with all this because data it doesn't have the balance of real life to show an outsider how managing a scout unit really works. 20 years ago volunteers were required to take training every 3 years. So how does the 66% fit in that. Or are volunteers required to train every year now? As I said before, how many times does one need training when they practice a skill everyday. OK, I guess to keep the lawyers and CynicalScouters at bay, blind repetitive actions to check off boxes will have will be the standard order of volunteer scouters, and even parents. But, here on this forum, we can still be honest and talk about real life in scouting unit without feeling threatened. Negligent? Barry

And this is the reasoning where we disagree. You are suggesting the impossible. The BSA set the system in place to protect the kids. But, they aren't negligent for the bad actions of individuals. Barry

True, but it could be the death nail. And, honestly, your response suggest how far you are willing to let this go. You are probably justified, I wouldn't go there anymore. You are victim looking for restoration of your life. Plain and simple. You can't control the system trying to work that out, so don't get in the habit of justifying the wreckage. Surly you can respect our passion for the mission and vision of the program and the impact of its loss to our culture. I'm not saying our pain is greater than your's, but the inequity of how it's being resolved just feels immoral. Barry

The organization was struggling before the law suit. There is a risk. But if you want to get more into details, lets say at the very least the program as intended by the current mission and vision is at risk. Barry

Your basic reasoning all along has been the numbers. Many of us were personally solicited (pushed) by law firms to join the law suit. When everyone is asked to join, the numbers become meaningless against my experience. Barry

Well said. I'm not sure where I stand with putting some burden of the compensation on everyone for the bad acting of a very few. That is a worthy discussion. But, the risk is that the inconvenience is the total loss of the BSA. I think it reflects the unfairness of the situation. Barry

OK, but somehow the splits loose posts. Or I just don't see the new threads. If that is the case, I apologize. I do agree with the splitting, but this is like the gay issue years back, it's complicated and so intertwined that one specific thread is almost next to impossible. Barry

Really! How! As I said, elephant in the room. Yep, standard blow off when emotional reasoning isn't convincing. I'm reasonable, Most here are reasonable. Convince us BSA is truly at fault. Here is you problem with me and several of us, I was heavily involved with the BSA for over 30 years at both the youth and adult ages and at all levels of administration. I worked and trained with thousands of adults and scouts. I never heard of an act sexual abuse. Now, I'm not so naïve to believe it didn't happen, and that the numbers are in the hundreds over the many dozens of years. But, I personally never heard of one act of sexual abuse from adults or scouts during my long scouting experience. So, why should I believe a respected noble youth program over a century old should be killed without convincing evidence the organization as a whole is as negligent as you suggest? Now, you may say that just because I never heard of an sexual abuse instance, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. My response is that I was pretty heavily networked in the organization and I feel my experience in general represents the nature of the BSA and this subject overall. Barry

And giving them full blame to the point of non existence is just as insane. Ironically, you want to make every scout today, and the future, victims. And there it is, deep pockets. I have no trouble with the truth that the BSA is the target because they are the only capable source of compensation for sexual victims. At least that would be honest. I don't believe that fair, and that is the intellectual conversation that you are scared to have. But, it is the elephant in the room. Barry

This is not a fair conversation. Nobody here wishes you ill will, in fact just the opposite. This is not about us against them, as a couple here keep suggesting, it's about question of fairness over the future of a century old youth organization.. But, every time the discussion veers toward that question, the mod steps in and reformates (deletes) that part of the discussion and then says stick to the subject. Then, the thread starts out away from the question of fairness, but eventually works it's way back, AGAIN. I believe many of the members here want to express a frustration. But, not the moderator. Barry

One would only have to list the percentage of male adults to discount sexual abuse risks in the GSUSA. In general, fathers are not very welcome. That is their real YP, something that the BSA, or most other youth scouting organizations can't do. Barry

Yes, but it's easy to argue if they wanted. How many adults haven't rode a bicycle in five years, yet do they still have the skill? Does the current course change every year? And, if the adults are practicing youth protection all the time, does the "current" training have significant meaning in the field? I have deal with this same issue here at work. We take a lot of annual training that hasn't changed in 15 years, but the managers are held accountable to our participation, so we have to repeat it, over and over. And because of the anti-BSA folks we see even here on the forum, a pre-testout is probably out of the question. Barry

I'm sitting here thinking about the families who struggled with funds and eventually chose to leave the program. In many cases it wasn't the funding that drove them off, it was the participation expected of the parents time. The real issue is that parents of low income families don't have a lot of time to participate or volunteer. Funds (lack of) are the easy excuse, but not the reason. I saw this a lot with Tiger families. I remember one mother who was nervous about her deaf son joining our troop. She felt compelled to participate to insure he would be safe in our program. That was despite our deaf Eagle Scout and his parents insuring her that we worked well with deaf scouts. Funding was difficult for her, but she was assured that it wasn't a problem for the unit. It was her lack of time that eventually motivated her to withdraw the whole family. Barry

I can't recall anyone saying that scouting was a bargain, poor choice of words. But, they will say the value of what they got from scouting is worth the price. Still, I know the cost can be intimidating. Our units, district, and council, always had scholarship funds available FOR ANYONE that wanted to participate, but was limited by their funds. If families wanted to participate, funding is there. But, in general, the families that ask for help were the ones that felt the program was worth the asking. Same goes with the families that could afford the cost. If scouting has to measured as a bargain from a funding perspective, then it has to show value from participation. While I could go on and on about the value of growth and character (I'm pretty good at it), National got a lot of traction from the Eagle. What is the Eagle worth? A lot apparently. While the analysis does paint a picture, the program still is one of the largest youth programs in the world. When the Canadian Scouts followed the program that was much the same as the BSA program, it was the largest youth program in the world. So, in context, it's worth it. Good scouting isn't cheap, but it has value. Of course now the cost is much much higher and the challenges much much greater. Ironically, I think the efforts to make the program affordable for all would kill the spirit of what makes it valuable. It killed Canadian Scouts. Barry

We had a similar situation in our district 25 years ago. Everyone knew about it, but they couldn’t do anything because all adults involved were consenting to the situation. The troop and charter liked the guy as a SM, so council didn’t want to get in litigation over it. Council found a reason to kick him out when someone witnesses him offering a scout a beer. Barry

If the BSA is taken out, history will show it as a victim of this culture. The noble reputation won’t change and it will be talked about with envy for many years. I’ve passed along countless stories of my dads scouting adventures during WWII. I’ve heard my sons pass along mine, as well as their own. My grandkids will pass them along as well. A fitting legacy for a great program. Barry

I never said you shouldn't be here, I said, "why are you here?". Meaning, what do you want from this forum? The answer is not clear to me. I wasn't attacking, I was seeking clarity. I didn't word it well, my bad. And what are your boundaries. You keep, let's say, moving the goal posts. Let's keep this simple so that we know when each know the boundary's; in one (just one) simple sentence, what do you want from this thread. Honestly, I think you will struggle with your boundaries more than us. What does that mean? Who is WE? Sounds like a scorched earth mission? Is that what you came to this forum to get? Barry

But, your off topic post is responding to your own off topic posts. When your post are out of bounds, should you not expect opposing responses? Fuel on the Fire? Saying nothing sometime has the most positive effect in keeping the discussion strait. Barry

It's a scary world for kids today. I heard a statistic that percentage of kids born in a single parent family in the 1950s was something less than a quarter of today. We had a lot of scouts who struggled in their personal lives, but as a scout leader, I found divorce by far to be the most common contributor for scouts personal suffering. Something like 50% of our nations children come from divorced parents. The statistics of the struggling behaviors for adults who were children of divorced families is heart wrenching. But, the culture just seems to keep piling on our youth. The issue with finding more and more ways to protect scouts in the program from predators is that the solutions are turning scout units into afterschool daycare programs for teenagers. Nothing healthy about that, and why would they even want to join. Barry

Suggesting that the loss of scouting for future youth is not a form of moral loss to the culture (my words for abuse) is to suggest the program itself does not promote moral and character growth. That would mean that the BSA mission of " to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." is not valid. I have personally witnessed in my own personal observations of many scouts who came to scouting to get away from abusive, harmful and stressful environments in their personal lives. They craved a place where they could fairly practice ethical and moral choices in a safe environment so they could learn and grow in the values of morality and ethics. Many found their scouting unit to be a refuge from their persona lives. Those scouts later became productive adults with families and members of the community. If I witness such accomplishments from scouting in my very tiny limited world, how much greater when spread across the whole program? How many youth with abusive personal lives in the future will not have the option of scouting to give them a practice of moral and ethical decisions within community of like minded companions or even a refuge were they can express themselves. I believe a loss of BSA scouting will at the very least take away the possibility of improving morality and ethics of the culture of the nation, much less of the community. In fact, I can't think of any youth program that is even close equal to providing providing youth the opportunity of the BSA mission and vision. Barry

Again, I can't see it. I believe they may have data in the areas they have more direct control like the MBs. But not unit level unless the units were more forthcoming. I was told (unofficially) about 25 years ago that the biggest source of abuse in the BSA was MB counselors. Which, made sense at the time because youth protection policies where just starting to include MB counselors. I could see some better data their because counsels have a little more control at the level of the program. National could have more data, but it would surprise me. Barry