Eagledad

>>Oh well, he's doing robotics in engineering school, I guess I'll settle for him getting a job out of it rather than a merit badge.

Hey don't interrupt please, over-thinking is what I do best. I'm now pondering snaps and waterproof materials for winter activities. Thinking Thinking

So we are talking about two zippers, one around the leg and the other vertical along the leg. You got the engineer in me thinking. Thinking Thinking OK got it. Two zippers abeam each other (abeam is pilot talk for right angles) would be a mess trying to start both at the same time and work properly, so lets try velcro or buttons or a combo of each for the vertical part. I'll keep thinking on this: Thinking Thinking

The Cub program is the number one major cause of losses in the BSA. I have written about the causes since 1995 and most folks who have been on the forum a while can probably recite me. But, Until National gets a hold on the Cub part of the problem, the losses at the rest of the program are hard to grasp. What I mean is if we loose 7 out of 10 boys before they even crossover to the Troops (conservative), how can we really know if there is a problem at the older age levels? Kudu is right that the best way to recruit boy into scouts is to present them with the program eye to eye. In fact, that is what Cubs do and is why they do recruit so well. If we could simply get half the boys we are currently loosing in Cubs to cross over into boy scouts, the troops would explode. Then our next and even harder problem would be holding on to the first year Boy Scouts. Keep those guys and you have them until 14. Then we move to the next problem of keeping the older scouts. But we must first get the Cubs to cross over. On the uniform, I cant say if that is the reason why boys dont join, I honestly dont think so when I think about it. But our troop started using Olive Drab BDU pants and they became a hit in our troop and our district. It was a lot easier for the PLC to get the Troop in full uniform and yes, a few of the guys bragged about wearing their pants to school. Barry

>>No Retesting is the real meaning of "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle:" A former Boy Scout's "values" (opinions) are more important than his ability to cook over a fire, or save a life.

>>We should never treat an advancement requirement as a one time punch card item. He should be learning the skill becuse he will be using it and needing it in the future.

>>or if you prefer, the skill has "really" been learned.

>>So then comes the question "If not to Retest.. What is the function of a BOR??"..

>>But we originally were in a troop that used the BOR to make sure the scout had learned by retesting and failing.

>>Maybe it is high time for the BSA to reevaluate the structure and methods of how a BOR should be run.

>>Also, we issue them Troop guidebooks, and Patrol Leader Handbook/Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. We use the sample agenda from inside these handbooks.

>>We want to make it a mixed age patrol by taking two new scouts who are actually interested in real boy scouting, so they can learn things the right way. Can we take scouts from a differant patrol? If so, is there a rule I can show my SM to make him believe me?

Most Oklahoma troops are year around campers. It's real cold today, but the biggest problem here is wind. It's kind of year round thing, so we get use to it. but temps in the low 20s and wind gust in the 40s like today is challenging. We occasionally get NO fire restrictions in dry months, so we have to get creative sometimes. November has always been our most challenging month to plan because of all the council and district stuff going on. Barry

Troops camping this weekend. Temps are in the low 20s with the wind gusting through the 40s here in Oklahoma. I'm sure winter has set in hard in most of the rest of the country as well. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

// The reference I used with the was to indicate that there are those out there that believe unless a boy is elected/assigned a POR and wears the patch, he can't get credit for advancement, i.e. my former troop. // We were supposed to get all that from a smiley face? You and my wife seem to think I have this telepathic power. No wonder I'm so bad at texting. Barry

Dont know what the smiley face means, but it is ok to suggest more training when your BOR struggles. Barry

>> "Being in a mixed patrol means those boys would not have an opportunity to try out any leadership until they were well into the program and the older boys aged out leaving leadership voids." Why?

//Yeah, right, the BOR looks at the book and says, sorry, you need a patch to get credit...// You should suggest your BOR get more training. Barry

Get the SPL Handbook and Patrol Leaders handbook for all the boys and adults working with scouts. Those two handbooks are simple instructions to running a troop. Working through those books together with the boys gives everyone involved an equal understanding of how the program works. That way there is no mystery for either the boys or adults. Refer to those handbooks for all the questions. And by the way, the Aims and Methods are discussed in the SPL Handbook. Everyone should sit down together and discuss them. I directed the discussion that the adults are responsible for the "Aims", and the scouts are responsible for the "Methods". We found out that fundraising was an excellent way for our troop bonding together when we started. Barry

AvidSM, I dissagree with just about everything you wrote and I base it from experience. That's OK, all scouters have their own way of building successful programs and should be happy with that. But the reason I replied to your post is while you were slamming the tradional patrols, I realized the Boy Scouting has been using mixed age patrols (traditional) for 100 years. The BSA only started suggesting same age patrols in the early 90s. When did boy run start? Barry

>>Mixed patrols - New scouts in over their heads and older boys bored out of their skulls. Yes, it's an over-generalization, but to a varying degree very valid.

>> Maybe the comment should read: "I have never seen an aged based adult-led troop that didn't end up the way you describe.." A properly run boy-led program would not end up the same way OneHour is experiencing. There is nothing wrong with a TG jumping in, doing his job, and still retaining an effective aged based patrol program. I would agree if I had witness such a program, but I have not. I am not saying that there isnt such a boy run program or that your troop is not boy run, I just personally have never seen it. And I have worked with and observed several programs. But let me just say I am not defending my observations to the death. I know there are many ways to skin a cat. I enjoy learning knew ideas and the more the better. In fact I feel our program turn out the way it did because we were so open to other ideas. I am just explaining my experience, not my theory. I had to throw out my theory my second year of Scoutmastering. In general, everything we tried the first time failed. We tried six different ideas for new scouts before we found one that worked to our standards. So our experiences are from lessons learned. The problem Stosh is I dont think a TGs instructing new scouts is enough to achieve the same level of growth as a mixed age patrol. That is why we move our new scouts out of NSPs into the regular patrols a few weeks after summer. New Scouts in NSPs are basically learning from purposeful instruction from, whether its from adults or Troop Guides. Personally I don't think it matters who teaches at the point to be truthful. Boy run is functioning independently, not having a boy tell you what to do. At least to me anyway. Purposful instruction is OK for the first few weeks to get the scout up to speed quickly on basics like setting up tents and turning on stoves, but the best kind and fastest kind of growth comes from the scouts passively observing and experiencing the skills with someone who already has the experience like a patrol mate. I have found and even proved that a 3rd year scout who comes from a mixed age patrol learned a lot more about leadership simply by observing leadership in his patrol than a scout that came from a same age patrol who went to several session of JLT type training. It makes a big difference. Observing to learn is just our nature. Also, we found the New Scouts in our NSPs were basically bored after six months because the TG pretty much taught about everything that the scouts felt they needed to be a functional patrol. The scouts in their second six months got in more mischief than any other scouts. They are mature enough to function on their own as a patrol after six months, but dont have any broad experience base from the group to learn new stuff. Many SMs just say send in TGs at the point, but the problem is they have to fail first to know that they dont know. That gets old quickly. Here is an example that any troop can observe with two patrols side by side. One patrol is a NSP, the other is a mixed age patrol with two new scouts that came from the same Webelos group as the new Scouts. After one year, go observe each patrol cooking their Saturday supper. You will likely see the scouts in the NSP cooking the same thing the same way that they learned six months ago. The new scouts in the mixed age patrol are likely are helping older patrol members cooking something they have never prepared before using a cooking technique they may have only used a couple times before, like a dutch oven. The SM and SPL can certainly send a TG back to the patrol to teach a new meal, but the scouts in NSP kind of resents that because that is saying they are still the new guys who cant be trusted to be on their own yet. They would rather eat the same meal over and over than have that feeling of being different from the rest of the troop. Just about all new scouts hate being the new scout and being treated like the new scout. Scouts in mixed age patrols arent new scouts very long because they become part of that patrol, part of the team. The scouts in the NSP are the new scouts until next year when they finally get a new group of scouts. I remember once talking to a scout in a new patrol requesting to be a Troop Guide for the next group of new scouts because he wanted to make them feel the way he felt about being a new scout. He wasnt talking about being nice. Its not just the scouts feeling they are being treated like babies, its also more work on the adults and PLC making sure the new guys are getting enough instruction or role modeling to maintain growth. Groth comes naturally with mixed age patrols. Its more artificle in NSPs. Now I admit some troops may have figured out how to do natural growth in a same age patrol, I just have not seen it yet. I would be excited to vistit anyones troop on this forum so you could brag about your fine program. I love to listen to braggers, no matter how adult run you may be. But I also enjoy learning something new. Im trying not to over step my bounds here. I am not judging anyones program here, Im just speaking from my experience. My theories that I started with as a scoutmaster dont much match my experience that I reflect back on and I just try to pass those experiences on to folks here. My theorys sucked. Barry

//When I used New Scout Patrols, I tried to snag my best ex-SPL for the position. // I never had to snag them, they volunteered. I dont know why but ex- SPLs just really enjoyed working with young scouts. Barry

Onehour, you just described the main problems of Aged Based Patrols. As you found out, if your new scouts are to get anything out of the program, the adults have to jump in and help to make it work. That goes against the advantages of a boy run program. I have never seen an aged based troop that didnt end up the way you described.. I think the three ASPLs is an OK short term solution, but make sure the scouts understand that in the long term, the goal is Patrol Leaders running the program. That way as the scouts start to figure it out, they can understand that change is not only OK, it is important toward improvement. Jet526, I learned over the years a good general rule for determining whether to mix New Scouts into existing patrols or into a NSPs. We found a patrol can only take two new scouts every few months without dramatically hurting patrol dynamics. If you have more Webelos than two per patrol, the NSP is the better route. Dont feel to bad about loosing so many new scouts, the BSA looses more scouts in the first six months of a Troop than any other age group. I said before that we found that the scouts you have after summer camp you will likely keep for several years. We went through a couple years of loosing a lot of new scouts, I know how it hurts. After trying several different styles of NSPs, we finally found one style that worked for us that consistently left us with at least 90% of new scouts the first year.. The key is good troop guides and a really good ASM. We found the best troop guides to be 15 years or older. The younger ones just never really understood how to work with the young scouts or just didnt have their heart in it. The older guys are great. If you dont have older scouts, then make sure you have a really really good ASM who can work with both the new scouts and the TGs. For us, it was better that the TG work as the patrol leader and stay with the patrol. I know the BSA likes the new scouts to be a patrol leader, but I never saw that work out. The first six months are important to get the new scouts up to speed in a boy run program. Giving them a leadership responsibility just got more in the way. The TGs will take them to watch a couple PLC meetings so they see how things work. I have had TGs give the new scouts some leadership responsibility, but I left that up to the troop guide. The reason new scouts quit the first year is the dramatic change of adults being responsible for their health and safety to the scouts taking care of their health and safety. Boy run individual responsibility sounds cool at first until the boys find out that the PL really is responsible to make sure they eat good food, sleep safely in a dark scary woods with the rain beating down on the tent. It is a big shift in trust. So, we train the TG to get close to the scout and the parents and explain a lot what they are doing. We also have the ASM work close with the parents to make them feel comfortable that their son is going to do fine. BUT, the ASM does not get involved with the TGs program unless the TG ask or something comes up that the ASM needs to communicate to the TG. When the new scouts see the TG and the ASM talking, the ASM is taking of subordinate position to the TG or working as a team. Really more as a team, but the ASM never leads the TG because we are trying to get the new scouts to see that the scouts are running the program. We are trying to give them confidence that even the boys run the program, the adults may be out of site, but they are close by to help the scouts in what ever they need. The new scouts and their parents are told that they can talk to the ASM anytime, but if the subject is something the TG can handle, they we be turned back to the TG. That includes the parents, they are encouraged to call the TG first for any question. The troop guides are used to getting calls at home from the parents and we want that so that they get used to the idea of the scouts running the program. But the main objective is to help the new scouts feel there is always a safe place to go if they feel uncomfortable about anything. The ASM is available anytime for the new scout. As the new scouts get more comfortable with the TG and program, they will see less and less of the ASM until they wont see him close by at all. This system works pretty good for us. We stopped loosing so many scouts, mainly because we worked with the whole family and the TGs worked close with the ASMs. The ASMs and TG understand the goal of developing confidence by summer camp, so they know the plan. One other thing, I just described how we worked with the NSP, but we do it the same if we mixed the new scouts into existing patrol instead of a NSP. The APL also becomes the new scout personal leader and they work close with an ASM for new scouts. Oh, the ASM I used with the new scouts and Troop Guides was the adult I felt would be the next SM down the road. I hope that isnt confusing and helps. New scouts are a challenge for all troops, I think it took us six years to find a method that we felt worked well for our program. Barry