Eagledad

Eng61 represents how we adults limit a scouts growth in the program. When I taught classes for scout leaders, I explained that adults control the unit by fear and egos. Hey, we all do it, but some folks are extreme. Typically its 80% fear to 20% ego, so I wiil stick with fear for now. I call these adult fears the circle of fear of a unit. Inside the circle is a comfort range on which the adults will allow the scouts to make their own decisions in their troop actinides. Outside the circle? No way! I knew of a troop that wouldn't even let their scouts go to their classes at summer camp without adult supervision. Another troop struggled and almost shutdown because the adults didn't even let the scouts run their opening ceremonies. What the adults of all units have to do is first recognize they have these fears and are limiting the scouts program, and then train the scouts and themselves to push out the circle of their fear. Training develops confidence in the scouts abilities and allows the scouts to make more decisions where adults used to fear scouts going. I remember using the example in one of my classes of letting scouts do a 5 mile hike without adult supervision. I just pick that off the top of my head, but one scout leader got very upset and loud of how reckless that would be. So I asked him his fears of allowing scout to hike without adults. He started with a scout getting hurt and I explained firstaid training. He then mentioned getting lost and I responded with more training with map and compass and start with routes the scouts are familiar with, even if that is in town. Then he stated his real fear of molesters and bullies. I pointed out safety in numbers and again picking a safe route. The idea I explained is knowing that a scouts growth is only limited by the adults fears, so the adults need to Knowingly push out that fear circle (all the time) through training for continued scout growth. That adult left the class kind of irritated, but he approached two years later at a Wood Bagde course and said he thought a lot about training through the fears and it changed their program a lot. He bragged that his troop had since done several 5 mile hikes without adult supervision. Now, that is how to deal with the fear side of the adults. Some adults are to proud to admit that they have fears or can train past those fears. That is the Ego circle and that is a different adult problem all together. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

//Oh, and his character will probably turn out OK, but save that speech for some other aspect of the program.// To each his own I guess, but I am anal that living the scout law is developing character and every right decision a person makes requires some combination of those traits. A boy has to make more decisions in a patrol environment than just about any other youth organization in the community. I'm one of those who believes that the more wrong decisions one makes, the more their character grows. I wanted my guys to screw up. Barry

//Safe environment for failure// This is what makes the BSA different and patrol method successful. Barry,

Sounds like you have it .under control, good job. A longer wheelbase is an advantage because the car will move back and forth across the track less than cars with shorter wheelbases. Every time a car wiggles back and forth, the wheels hit the track creating more friction that's slows down the car. Barry

The first response from UCEagle is excellent advice. There isn't much else to add accept that lisabob has had some similar experiences, so I suggest keeping the forum up to date seeking more advise from her and UCEagle. We can't really know your adults, but if one really is controlling, my experience is they won't change even when they know the right thing to do. I think that is what qwazse was saying. You need an adult they respect enough to listen to when they are being told that they are going too far "again". And by the way, you will run into these types of folks the rest of your life, so learning how to deal with this situation using the scout law is a life lesson. Barry

>>It has been a struggle, but I think we're in a great place right now. In all honesty, what it has taken so far is to get other adults to step back, set up expectations with youth leaders, offer training, communicate often, turn the program over to them and then step back.

Yes, just like Scoutfish, I am a survivor of Melanoma Skin cancer and my scouts knew it every time we started the day outside. I was seen, and "heard", slathering sunscreen on my exposed skin and asking everyone else if they put theirs on yet. The stuff was the heaviest thing in my pack. Anyway, I didn't harp them, but it was pretty close. It's the exposure to the sun during the teen and young adult years that gets us later. I only had to show them my scar for them to understand why. They were good kids and rarely gave me to hard a time about my nagging. Barry

BP, I'm not sure of your point, 83 doesn't have your ideal scenario. The ACM was my way of taking the extra work off the CM. If the ACM can develop and run a functional quasi Pack committee, then the pack is running normal like most packs. Then when the CC does decide to step down, the committee is already in place and the leaders only need to change their titles. I imagine the present CC will be glad to help this along. Barry

We have a troop in our district with the exact same problem. If I were you, I would find a new CC adult and make him the ACM of Adult Program. Then have him run his/her responsibilities like a normal unit committee. They should even invite the CC to the Adult Program meetings to be polite. I think you will find even the district and council will respect your Adult Program committe as the Pack Committee because it serves the purpose of a unit committee without anyone getting hurt. These things can be sticky. In our case, nobody wants to ask the CC to step aside because he is the oldest scouter in the state in one of the oldest troops in the state. There is some honor and respect there even if he is running the troop in the ground. Barry

There are no rules, so you can try something new. Maybe a Friday night AOL indoor campfire with s'mores for everyone after the ceremony. Our pack started doing the AOL ceremony in the January pack meetings so the Blue and Golds didn't run so long. It was really more of a arrow presentation from the den leader because we presented the AOL as soon as the scout earned it. Some scouts had earned the AOL several months before. Barry

Scout fish my brother, I am already excited to read your future post on this forum after you have a few years experience working with our sons because you will have great suggestions based from experience, I'm sure of it. While I like to use the phrase that "scouting is the real world scaled down to a boys size." I am also a firm believer that we have power in the BSA mission:"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." A little something from a scouter with many scars of doing it wrong, when confronted with a challenging scout, dont write them off. Ask for help from someone with experience and maybe become a hero to the scout and his parents. You have the power to make a difference in our sons life. Barry

>>After Ms. Palin's statement this week, I'd be really surprised if she even gets much serious media coverage for a run in the primary, given how she tried to deflect responsibility for what some see as incendiary rhetoric on the media.

Something we did a few years ago was a Troop equipment theme each month. The Troops brought and set up a piece of equipment to give other troop leader ideas. We ask the troops to set up their equipment at least a half hour early so everyone could look around before the meeting started. The monthly themes included: Tents, patrol boxes, stoves, backpacking tents and backpacks. These displays typically added an outdoors presents to the RT atmosphere. A discussion of these theme displays don't have to be part of the Troop breakout because they are set up for everyone to look at before the meeting. But, you will find the scouters (Cubs and Troops) start looking forward to the next meeting to see what the next theme brings. We also did a "Webelos Den leaders and Scoutmasters meet and greet' one month. We found that most Den Leaders don't know and are uncomfortable calling the Troops for visits. We did the meet and greet a half hour before the meeting with coffee and cookies to break the ice. We also encoruage the Scoutmasters bring the SPL to help sell their program. Surprisingly we only had about a 4th of the troops participate in the meet and greet while we got about half the Den leaders. Barry

>>What our Pack does I was actually initially opposed to, but I now see the wisdom of it. Our Tiger den meetings are once a month. We also have a few Go See Its that can't be done at the regular meeting time,

>>How does it sound for the Cubmaster and Committee Chair to be able to identify the need for volunteers and have someone else take the responsibility of finding the parents needed to do those tasks?

I was thinking in the direction of shortridge, but I like Lisabobs idea for plan A. I also like her suggestion to find out how many families WILL commit to your troop. I have been to more Crossovers than not where several scouts changed their mind in the very last minute. Your presents without receiving crossovers might give the wrong impression. Barry

>>I just gotta disagree with you, I was a Webelos leader right before and at the conversion to two years(late 80's) and there were NO LION scouts. I did the program both ways and I can tell you personally that the two year program was the death knoll for Webelos, transition to boy scouts dropped significantly and continues to do so. Two years is WAY TOO LONG for a single rank.

>>Making Webelos a two year program was ridiculous to begin with and has proven to be the weakest link in cub scouting.

The main reason for taking Webelos camping is to see how they do. You are right in that you have more power to work the situation than a SM, at least more immediate power. So, as a Webelos leader (we did this in the troop also), I would find a tent that holds at least four boys. That lessens the issue of who will tent with him and balances the one scouts antics with a greater number of normal boys. I would also instruct all the scouts to go get the one scouts dad when he does act up. Dad would be instructed to make it inconvenient as possible for the scout to act up by taking him for long walks with long talks to motivate the scout to blend in with the other scouts. Its hard on dad, but better now than in the Troop. This works for us. Barry

Those are some good thoughts Dan, but let me explain my conerns. First there is a very (VERY) big difference of maturity between first and second grade. First graders can't read or write, and their attention span is very small. Infact first grade is where boys learn the displine of sitting still. The true impact of their maturity differences hit me when I watched a first grade dad carrying his thumbsuckig and crying son to our cub recruitmentment meeting. Kindergartners and first graders are still toddlers. A program for that age requires more than twice the number adults to run successfully than any other age. I am open to your Webelos idea, but I have concern about pushing down some of the boy scout stuff because there is a risk of backlash at the troop level program. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Rarely are reactions a good thing. I really think the present Webelos program is perfect for that age. The less that is changed, the less risk of backlash. Barry

//I'd almost like to see the program divided into Cubs (2nd - 5th grade) , Jr. Souts (6th,7,8) and then Boy Scouts /High adventure for 9-12th grades. // I agree with all your suggestions Dean, but the suggestion above is one I have not heard before and Is worth considering. I would first like to see the results of just removing tigers, but consider something like your idea if the Webelos program still struggles after few years. Good post. Barry

Another thing we did to keep the evening around an hour was we did check-in the night before the race. Barry

Not sure if this helps, but we had a rather large pack, so we barrowed a track from another pack and used two tracks at the same time to speed up the evening. Tigers and Wolves on one track, Bears and Webelos on the other. Each car raced a minimum of 10 times, so using two tracks kept the whole event around an hour. We also did a fundraiser by serving hotdogs, cokes, chips and cookies. Everyone had great fun while eating supper and cheering for their favorite cars. Barry

>>It's rather unfortunate that not everyone on this forum is as informed and experienced as I am and maybe it would be a more welcoming place for the newbies if they were. Now, if one cannot see the sarcasm dripping from these comments, then maybe one should not be on the forum.

>>I let him work on requirements but didn't sign off until he finished the 5th grade. It all worked out well.