Eagledad

I believe the District Commissioner is the most critical person on the District Committee because they can control everything, bad or good. I have found through the years that there are very few people who can actually do the job right. First of all they need the gift of recruiting. Then they need to have vision and know how to organize and manage Unit Commissioners toward that vision. Good District Commissioners are rare to find. I personally think our commissioner was the cause of loosing at least 20 % of the scouts every year in our district. He didnt know how to prevent fires, only how to put them out, and not really good at that. But he is a one of the nicest guys you will ever meet and one of my dearest friends. He is now the Council Commissioner. Oh well. Barry

>>So that day, I learned that the boundaries of "boy led" in that particular group did not include planning for any events.

Man I hate this kind of stuff. What did these parents not see or not know about the troop when they joined? Barry

>>We agree pretty much on the outcome, just the process to get there.

>>While I may not be building a company in India, I still think it's far more productive to start 5 year olds in kindergarten and work from there. Yes, they will need some guidance and training, but by the time they reach 7th grade, they will have had more opportunities than if they had started with students far more advanced than them. Those kindergarten students aren't lazy or irresponsible, but more along the lines of overwhelmed and frustrated.

Wow, Leadership or safety? I've watched you program since you have been on the forum and your scouts don't seem to be different from ours with leadership. And with all do respect to the time you give to our program, this might be a time to reflect on the adult side of the program. I have never seen the DE get involved with parents unless the unit adult leadership is ignoring their concerns. Surely someone saw this coming. Parents have a responsibility to protect their kids from unreasonable risk. In this day and age, parents are less trusting of adults who say, trust me, you kid is safe with me.. They want to know that their kid is safe. Also, parents who are more in the dark generally are a reflection of what their kids are telling them at home. What do they really know? I found through humbling lessons that the parents have to be educated about the program we are presenting for them. If they are to trust us to keep their kids safe and in a program that they dont really understand philosophically, the burden is on us to teach them our philosophy of the program. You are pretty open Stosh that you spend 100% of your time. I don't understand how 100% of time with boys isn't adult run, but who knows what that really means. I believe the SM should spend at least 50% of their time with the adults constantly teaching, guiding, role modeling, and educating them on our program philosophy. Especially a philosophy that is radically different from what the parents expect like our boy run philosophy. And it has to be the SM, not the CC, ASM, advancement committee member or chaplains aid that teaches the philosophy because after all, the SM IS the Troop leader, No matter what anyone else says. And I think the SM needs to show actual examples of how their program is working. Not theories or conspiracy theories of what might happen. The SM needs to actually show the parents what is going on, how it works and why. And they need to do it all the time. Not once a year, but over and over. If the parents like what they hear and see from the SM, then they will not only allow their sons to stay in the program, they will push them to stay in the program. If the SM cant do all that, the parents get suspicious and scared. They dont like being in the dark. Our troop was considered the most radical boy run Troop in the council and that kind of program required constant communication with the Troop leaders as well as the parents. I constantly gave handouts of the Aims, Methods and troop vision to all parents and had a parents meeting twice a year to explain the boy run program as well as answer any questions. We required the parents of new scouts attend a four week training where they were exposed to everything in the program. It was the one time the PLC had more than one or two adults in their meetings. I also gave all this same information to visiting Webelos parents. Our program was radical compared to most troops, but it also grew from 14 to 80 scouts in five years. We had the largest single group of scouts 14 and older than any other unit in the council. Not that we wanted a big troop, we didnt. Boy run is very difficult on a large scale, especially one that is constantly growing. I just dont feel a troop program can be successful unless the SM is fairly close to the parents. Especially in this day and age of helicopter parenting. I could be wrong about this being a concern for you stosh, but it something to think about. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We have lots of stories with a Troop as large as ours, but the most serious was an ASM who had a heart attack on a biking campout. It was pretty serious, but lucky for him there was a bike race going on in the area and they had an ambulance on stand by. We also had a couple of doctors on that campout as well and I think they saved his life. I relate to Eagle92s hypothermia in the Canadian Wilderness because we had the exact same situation up there as well. I fully understand how it can get serious without realizing it. The temperatures are in the 50s, but with it raining, it comes on fast. Luckily we did realize what was going on and immediately took care of the scout by putting him next the fire with a cup of hot chocolate. That saved it from getting to the seriousness that Eagle92 experienced. It scared me and I am a lot more alert about hypothermia now. Other than those two experiences, most injuries were a result of scouts horsing around or doing something they knew they shouldnt have been doing. I cant recall a single incident with knives except with scouts who had not been to been trained yet and should have been using one. We did have a few injuries with bow saws from scouts who didnt wear gloves but knew they were supposed to. By they way, the bow saw is the number cause of woods tools injuries by a factor of three. I have two scars today from my scouting days. One from pinewood derby and the other from a Space Derby. I got second place on both those derbies for best looking. I wear those scars with pride. Barry

>>I reckon you're hilariously wrong and in denial that teenagers can actually become atheists. Not everything is about rebellion against your favorite religion.

>>Uhhh huh...

An excellent method of patrol competition is patrol campsite inspections. There is nothing like comparing each others campsite to improve performance. Improving performance is the best tool for improving leadership and patrol pride. I am curious, a few folks over different threads talk about rebuilding patrols every now and then for different reasons. How does that develop the patrol pride and loyalty? Patrol pride is a delicate thing to develop. Once you have it, you got it for a long time. But getting there is 90 percent of the battle. Our troop adds and dissolves patrols depending on the influx, but we never start over and rearrange with all new patrols. So Im curious. Barry

>>Approximately 95% of pedophiles are heterosexual. Approximately 5% of pedophiles are homosexual.

Our guys encourage new scouts to join a patrol with a friend or friends. I'm not sure how the PLC in our troop would know the more athletic boys of the new group. It would be dumb luck if your situation occurred in our troop. While I was SM, the SPL and I sat down before the meeting to strategize placing new scouts. Usually the SM or some other adults learned as much as we could from the den leaders and sometimes parents. Anything we think can help the PLC work successfully is discussed with the SPL. But, the smallest group of scouts that joined our troop while I was SM was 18, so placing new scouts was a lot of work. I usually let the PLC do their job and waited for the SPL to present me the final list at the end of the evening. I was there of course to advise if the SPL asked. Honestly I think the PLC and I looked at this process more as a team effort, not a SM PLC relationship. It's a lot of work getting new scouts placed where they are excited for their future. Barry

>>The first question I would ask is what do the new boys want? If they don't get what they want, they will quit.

>>Merlyn makes two excellent points.

Kudu, I am a ardent believer of "the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe". I just don't believe that that statement fixes everything. A person can believe in the sum total thing and still not believe in god. If the scout presents me with this idea, that is one thing, but if he told me that an adult said he was OK because of some pantheist belief, well that is something else. I thought my gutless point was a little off the mark and unfair because I feel we are friends and you would see the smile behind it. But nothing you wrote in your following post changed anything I wrote. That surprised me. I was ready to admit my errors and stand humbled. Its kind of funny, I was thinking that you were psychological projectioning when you talked about the atheist Scout and finding a fix to get the Eagle. And now I wonder about the IQ comment. I guess I just don't position scouts like that. You accuse me of some kind of pressure toward scouts in that they would not feel comfortable speaking freely, and yet I've said nothing that would feed that thinking. You would find that my scouts didn't know my religion or my belief in God. After reading your last post, I am convinced that a scout would have more freedom with me than with you. I have too much respect for their abilities to figure it out, no matter what their IQ. And maybe that is why I've never had to find them a fix. What ever fix the scout needs to satisfy himself, he would seek and find himself, even if the fix was "I am an atheist". I want nothing to do with what a Scout believes other than to support him. Its too personal and really none of my business other than what the BSA requires of me, which really isn't that much. I on the other hand admire any man who can make the tough choice, even if that choice means giving up the Eagle. And THAT is what I mean a decision made for life. If the scout gives up the Eagle because of the tough decision, there is no going back. Unless he is before 18 of course. When I think back on the many many discussions Ive read on this forum, it seems only the scouters that have had discussions with atheist scouts are the adults who seem charged up by the BSA restriction of atheist. There is just something that bothers me about that. I know there are stories of over zealous adults push their form of religion on the scouts, but I wonder who is more zealous, those against the BSA or those for. I mean I have had 1000s of discussions with these young man and I have to wonder why I've never had one with a out and out devout atheist. I've had many discussions with boys completely confused and many who just didn't know. I will never forget the counseling the witch. I am sure their are boys who are truly atheist, but to read it from you and a few others here, there are a lot of atheist scouts and just I don't believe that. Its too hard just trying to figure themselves out to make that kind of conclusion without the help of an adult somewhere. I've watched to many adults project their ambitions, fears and beliefs on the scouts trying to sway the scout to their own way of thinking and I detest that. While I've never met an atheist scout, I know several adult Eagles who are now atheist. I only have pity for the ones who knew they were atheist when they got the Eagle. Barry

It seems to me Kudu that you basically just told the athiest scout to say "Repeat after me!" to give you the out. Gutless on both your parts. I have no trouble with a scout trying find his way, which might be the reason I've rarely had trouble with a scout's conflict on the god part of scouting. All boys struggle in developing their identity, its part of nature. I admit that in the many hundreds of scouts I've worked with, I never had one just come out and say he was an atheist. Ive had many scouts with atheist parents, but they all supported the spirtual side of the program. I can't say for sure how I would respond to a scout admitting he was an atheist. Although Im not one to over react to such things, I am sure I would not give him the out so he could get his prize or to save me from saying no! Like other parts of the program, scouts struggle in, I would counsel him to search for the answer and that he can count on me to stand by him, whatever he decides. But! he needs to feel satisfied with he decision because he will have to live with it forever. I guess for me it's not about the prize of the moment, its about the lasting lasting integrity of making the right choice. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

In the scout troop, I learned that scouts in general live down to the lowest expectation of dominating mentor, which typically is the SM. That is probably why I strongly feel the SM should be viewed with unusually high moral principles. Scouts really do want to please their mentors and disappointment by the mentor is typically a life changing experience for the better. But when a few choose not to change, they instead flee. At least in my experiences. So I wasn't surprised to read the scout in this case went to a different troop. That follows the same pattern I've observed and it makes sense I guess, nobody wants to feel the constant heavy burden of disappointment when they choose not to change. Barry

>>Republicans seem to always do what is expedient in dealing with other countries. So even if a country is the antithesis of our values, republicans will support the regime if it supports US interests. Democrats say the right thing but end up doing the same thing. We should become an honest broker in the world.

You might get received for SM if you do. Barry

I used to give Pack management clinics and on top of my must do list for good pack programs was using the same annual agenda every year. First off, this takes the stress off annual planning with new leaders. They just move right into the new leadership position and keep the pack running under the momentum of the previous leadership. Second, it gives the leadership time to find volunteers for the annual activity. We had volunteers for every monthly pack event before the end of the previous May. In fact, our parents knew the program so well that the activity leaders did their own recruiting for the next year and just reported the names to the committee. I dont know how we got that going, but it was great, especially for Pinewood Derby and Blue and Gold. Truth is that while a few talented adults like SeattlePioneer have the creative skill to change the program and keep it interesting, most volunteers arent that good. From a district point of view, it is a challenge just to get the packs to have any kind of annual agenda, much less one that can be repeated every year. I agree with Joebob, its up to the Den Leaders to keep the fun in the program because they see the scouts three times a month compared to the Pack that likely only has one activity a month. If the pack provides one different activity each month, then the scout only participates in the activity once a year. That is not to say that creative planning is not a good thing. I wish every pack had a SeattlePioneer. But most packs arent that well managed and an annual agenda that a pack can repeat every year well is more desired than hoping that the pack can create any kind of agenda any year. Packs with creative people have great programs. Packs that dont can still have fun programs provided they schedule the activities far enough ahead to give the volunteers time to plan them. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Personally I don't understand why people think only ADULTS can manufacture competition. My experience is that boys do that quite naturally and easily themselves, whenever given an oppotunity

>>If one uses Barry's idea of fear and ego, I'm thinking it is more ego than fear. A SM has in his/her mind that the success of the the troop rests solely on him/her and then proceeds to insure it happens. The SM thus turns into a control freak.

>>Sorry. I remain unimpressed.

The way we got around the no adult patrol outings fear was to first do them at a scout camp where the camp ranger could check on them. The funny thing about it though, is the scouts didn't see the big deal of camping without adults because it was no different than our troop canopies where the patrols generally camp out ou sight of eac other anyways. I personally had a fear of fire, so we had the fire department visit and explain the risk of improper fire techniques in the out doors. But a really good teacher is visiting the burn unit of a hospital. Our guys are experts in the area of fire, but men will be men, so firstaid training is a high priority. We (knock on wood) have never had a fire accident. I will say I have witnesses scouters doing some really stupid things with fire. The key to getting past fears is first admitting that they are a problem in restricting scouts growth. Your husband doesn't see his fears as a problem. or he isn't willing to push himself out of that comfort zone, or circle. Barry

>>I make my own car to show off to moms like that. I take the block of wood right out of the box and spray paint it a couple of times. I make decals from Cub Scout literature and stick them on the sides of the car.