Eagledad

Scoutfish, it's clearly no. Oh, the bible is God's word and was inspired by God. If it were not, it would be useless. What, the resurrection happened, but not the rest? Barry

>>BDPT, the problem with that is that they HAVE earned the right to "just be a Scout".

>>So do YOU as leaders, add to the planning, such as a new camp site or activity.......I have found the scouts I serve generally have very limited experiences, or imagination to broaden possible activity choices.

While I was Cub Master, I had to deal with the "not enough leaders" scenario every year. Its a fairly common problem with most packs, expecially at the end of the Bear year. If you become the CM, you will have to deal with the "not enough leaders" problem again. If you stay as the Den Leader, than its someone elses problem to solve and your life is easier. You probably can understand why I personally believe a good CM should also be a good recruiter. I think you are being tested. Barry

>>When I was a Scoutmaster thirty years ago, I generally found that boys who had been through Cub Scouts had benefitted fr5om it a good deal. Better able to work together, be focussed about learning and better behaved.

Its hard for me to imagine. Baden Powell created Boy Scouts to serve boys who were walking the streets while their parents worked 12 hours a day at factories. Boys in our culture dont need scouting in the same way they did, so Im not sure where cubs would fit for BP. The BSA is running a business that requires getting families hooked as early as possible. I imagine that we would have far fewer boy scouts without a Cub program, but for us traditional style leaders, quality over quantity is usually a good thing. Barry

Hard to beat a $50 dollar Walmart tent for Cubbing. A Walmart tent today is 10 times better than the $200 tents we used 25 years ago. They are fine for Cub Scouting and will handle most Oklahoma rains fairly well. Maybe some leaks in the corners on the heavy down pours. Walmart domes will hand wind better than Temberlines. I personally think the Walmart two pole domes are a little easier to set up than my Timberline for young scouts. The advantage of the Timberline over the Walmart is that it will last a lot longer. But, the scout is likely ready to move on from his Walmart tent when he gets into the higher adventure of troop camping anyway. Barry

Being the person of knowledge can wear one down, but if you are consistant, you will build a trust amoung your group. Learn your sources and display them as you all the other to show their ignorance. This forum is a good place to learn the sources to many questions, you can pick through the replies to get what you need. I am not sure what you mean by old and new program, but I do understand the frustrations of changes in the program since I was a scout in the 60s and 70s. Sadly, times have changed, but that is no excuse to water down the program more than it has to. The troop I was the adult leader of had far more adventure than the troop I grew up in. Your scouts and their parents will respect you more and more as you combine a bit of the old and new. I wish you the best of luck and please stay in touch so we all can enjoy your experience. I love this scoutuing stuff. Barry

I guess its only human, we complain about the uniforms and wish National would be more responsive, then we get irritated when they respond and we have to pay. Ford ran into this same problem when they only produced black cars. Barry

>>Also, the Troop not encouraging it *does* discourage it. How many troops have you seen that don't encourage camping or earning Eagle? Yes, a Troop is "youth run", but youth take a lot of cues from their adult leadership.

>>As a note to everybody, I am not a Scoutmaster, I am a JASM with my troop.

>>IMO there is absolutely no excuse to car camp in boy scouts, this is one of the primary reasons boy scouts continue to diminish in alarming numbers.

The only rank that is reqired for anything in our troop is 1st class to be on the PLC. Other than that, we found through the years that as soon as rank is held as a requirement for something, it will come back at you. Age is the same way, once age is used as a requirement, it will come back and bite you somewhere. So we quit using age and rank as reqirments unless they were required for activities like Philmont. Our troop has been blessed by many good SPLs and I think its because it's hard work in our troop. A lazy scout knows better to even try, so generally only the ambitious hard working scouts run for the position. One of my best SPLs hated advancement, so Star was the highest rank he ever advanced. But he was such a good natural leader that I fully expect to see him in Washington DC one day with the title of senator. Barry

>>I have a feeling the responsibilities will fall on my shoulders again, and I don't want that to occur.

>>Was it this article?

>>IMO there is absolutely no excuse to car camp in boy scouts, this is one of the primary reasons boy scouts continue to diminish in alarming numbers

Monday front page Daily Oklahomam I'm having a hard time accessing the archives however. Barry

>>When I was a Scoutmaster, one of the things I encouraged from all of the parents, especially those who were Cub Scout leaders was to take a break and not take on any Boy Scout positions until after their son was in the troop for a year.

Thanks folks, I guess the consensus is you can't be a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection. I didnt even get into the virgin birth side of the article. Sorry BDPT00, I honestly didnt know what you were saying or who you were responding too, Ducks in a row? I thought I was quoting the news article. Worm food as the resurrection? LOL, We do seem to live in a complicated world these days where many feel the need to include their own theological interpretation to get spiritual satisfaction. For me, that goes completely against the intention of the creator. If one has to deviate from the thousand year old interpretation of the faith, they failed in their faith because religion guides or directs the follower in a disciplined life of serving other people and/or God or a spiritual entity. I dont know of any spiritual discipline that teaches how to serve one self. If a believer lacks discipline and chooses to follow their own interpretation, they are serving themselves and thus have diverted from the main premise of serving others. They have put themselves above God and become their own god. The Old Testament calls that idol worship. We all seem to suffer from some sort of idol worship I guess. Barry

>>don't think we ought to shy away from things that we see as being wrong. I believe that if we can find a way to talk to the Scout, without being judgmental. We open the door for him to take a look at his choices and his ethics. Isn't this what we are supposed to be doing anyway?

>>Barry, Is that a conclusion you found in your research, or one you came to?

I did a little research on the losses of first year scouts several years ago because I wanted to know if the changes National made around 1990 to improve the first year loses were working. Nothing changed from the program before 1990 to after, at least in loses of first year scouts. But, during the research, I also learned that more scouts leave the BSA during their first year of scouting than any other age and it has always been that way. The reason is because the sudden independence of boy scouting is more than a lot of boys can handle at that age and maturity. So it is not something new with todays generation of parents. Its been that way since at least the 1960s as far as I could find. I don't count this on the question of; is cub scouts hurting boy scouting, because I look at number of boys starting in cubs to the number of Webelos joining troops. The first year scout issue is a different problem and after my many years experince, I think is a troop problem, not cub. Oh the cubs could help a little, but the troop has the responsibility to take any new boy, whether they have previous cub experience or not. And as history shows, it has always been a problem. We figured that the leader burnout problem was the cause of 50% of Webelos not crossing over. That is a conservative number, but imagine if we could get just half of those scouts in a troop? I do remember that the old Canadian Scouts (before their changes in 1990s) seem to do a pretty good job of gradually bringing boys up to speeds so that they were comfortable with independence when they reach the troop program. But, we would need to find an old-timer to tell us how well it worked. Barry

>>I think that in some ways this takes away a lot of the excitement of going to Scout Camp and I can see why a lot of Scouts who by the age of 13 or 14 feel that they have been there, done that and already have a ton of t-shirts.

you dont believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ? There was a little bit of a discussion last week about Lutheran Churches leaving the Lutheran USA church and joining other churches. Our CO is a Lutheran Church that just voted to leave the Lutheran USA and join the Lutheran North American. There was another article in the news paper this morning on the church and their decision to leave saying that the support of a gay clergy was just the latest of reasons they departed from the Lutheran USA, other reasons included a growing unbelief of the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Can a person still be a Christian and not believe in the resurrection? Barry

I've written about this several times over 12 or so years and yes you have hit the nail on the head, adult burnout in Cub Scouts hurts the Boy Scout numbers. Five years is asking too much of adult volunteers. Even four years is a lot. The first year is Tigers and that program alone requires four times more adult time per week than any other age group. The BSA has no business trying to include toddler age boys into a program designed for more mature boys. It verges on being a babysitter program except the parents still have to attend. When you poll Den leaders and Cubs as I have done, you find that at least 50 of Den leaders who started at the Tiger or Wolf year are ready for a break by the end of their Bear year. These are adults who are not that excited about their responsibility in the program anymore and the result is a boring program, a boring Webelos program. Boys only look forward to the next year of scouts if their previous year gives them the enthusiasm to make the move. If the Webelos are boring, the boys think the Troop will be boring as well and the crossover numbers show it. I haven't seen the numbers in the last few years, but less than 50% of Webelos was crossing over to Troops. I can't see a reason why the number would change. And its not the activities that are boring or sports taking the boys away like a lot of folks assume, its just that the adults are burned out. Not all of them of course, most of us here didnt loose that enthusiasm, but studies show that the average person is willing to give a volunteer program about 18 months before they need a break. The Cub program ask far more than that. How many of us have nearly got on our knees to beg a leader to stay just one more year. When National made some major changes to Tigers in 2000 that required more of the adults time on a weekly basis instead of biweekly, a few of us predicted that the crossover numbers would fall as a result four years later and they did. What surprised me was that the Tigers to wolves numbers fell as well. The Wolf and Bear numbers were stable percentage wise, but I understand the first year Webelos started falling more than normal. Cub Scouts has become too heavy and too complicated for the average adult and the intended vision. Its not a boy problem, its all about the adults because if the adults are excited, so are the scouts. You only need to talk and compare good dens with bad ones and you see a difference of attitude in the boys as far as their future of scouting.. Im not sure of the solution, I have proposed a few that I think would work like killing the Tiger program for a start. But big changes have far reaching effects that can be both positive and negative. I cant imagine National is blind to the numbers, so I just dont think they want to take such risk. Barry