Eagledad

This will be a popular topic as long as the BSA organization is blamed for the abuses. Barry

You can rest easy, I'm here. Now, what's this about giving animals parking tickets. We need to get on top this. Barry

Really! This is very offensive. I’d like to see your polling data. Barry

Of course, your reputation for self-righteous posts proceeds this post. Condescending implications are immature at the very least and rarely ever produce positive outcomes. In fact, it usually produces the opposite results. There is no doubt you would be jumping into anyone treating your kids what you claim you are justified doing on this list. Scouting is exactly about teaching scouts how to use the scout law for giving a personal perspective without being demeaning or insulting. Intellectual discussions requires to first respect the other persons and presenting oneself without unwelcoming words or tone. Neutral or welcome discourse requires practice, but the person must want to practice first. Barry

When a poster threatens, DARES, or intimidate the list to agree with their opinion, then something has to change. Barry

Yep, adults require as much, if not more, teaching than the scouts. I taught a boy run and patrol method class in our council for two years. Let's require something like that for both the SM and CC. We kind of have the camp that Fred describes. While troops can camp there (we sent our patrols there when they wanted to camp without adults back in the day), the facilities were built with teaching in mind. It also has a COPES course and Climbing/Rappelling tower and pool for unit activities and adult certifications. I agree with Eagle94's concerns, I'm sure Fred does also, but this camp idea is worth discussing in an age of Helicopter Parenting/Leading to hammer out ideas and restrictions. I certainly like MattRs suggestions of kicking the adults out of the Scouts' camping area. OK, my words, but Patrol Method Camp Rules can force patrol method in the safe area of camp where the adults give the scouts more independence. This could turn into an instructional and Patrol method teaching/practice/tuning camp where Troops are required to attend at least once a year to get the adults, and maybe PLCs, back up to speed. I used to preach to council that the best quality control of multiple units (Districts) is training. Training is the one place all the units learn the same specific expectations to running their program. Sometimes they were taught wrong, but that is a difference subject. Most folks who have been here a while on the forum know that my greatest fear of everything going on with the BSA in the last few years is driving the BSA into a afterschool daycare program. Patrol Method is loosing its following because fewer adults have no experience and don't understand or trust it. Maybe this camp is the way to protect Patrol Method and enhance it's performance by training all the adults of it's methods and benefits. I don't know, just kicking a few thoughts around. Barry

So, a little advice from someone who has this experience with 16 scouts. I ran the meeting basically like a troop where the two patrols were still part of one program. Running seperate dens requires at least twice the number of volunteers. easier to find one leader with three assistance than 3 leaders and 3 assistance. As a SM, I personally don't believe scouts need all that much Patrol Method experience to be successful in the troop. Our troop has a very good program to get new scouts up to speed. I instead believe they need confidence for a troop programs. And they way I did that was let Webelos IIs run all the pack Opening and closing ceremonies. I also required two skits from the Webelos and two run-on skits. My objective with the ceremonies and skits was getting Webelos comfortable performing in front of other scouts. The Webelos were also required to arrive 30 minutes early to set up chairs for the troop meetings. Service. I asked a Tiger/Wolf?bear den assist the Webelos with the ceremony. In fact, the other dens carried the flags while the Webelos led the ceremony. That got the younger scouts used to getting in front of crowds, and the Webelos used to teaching and leading. As far the Den meetings, one of the two den-patrols was assigned and responsible for the opening and closing ceremony. I asked them to run it like a troop with reciting prayer, Pledge of a Elegance, Oath and Law. I DID NOT judge their performance on reciting the Oath or Law. They will eventually get that on their own and it takes the stress out of leading the ceremony. After the first few meetings, the scouts know enough to assign the positions of calling out and holding the flag, and the parts of the ceremony itself. You will be surprised they can plan the ceremony in 30 seconds. Confidence. As I said, don't be to critical on performance until it is obvious they should be doing better. After the opening., we typically ran two activities since we had 16 scouts. We would run each activity about 20 mintues, then switch the patrols to the other activity. You can be creative how you want to do this, but the scouts liked it because if one activity is boring the other could make up for it. No activity should be boring, but I asked parents to plan and run the activities and some where better than others. Then the Scouts had games for 20 mintues, which the love, and then we would do awards and closing ceremony. I asked the parents to shup a few minutes early to watch the awards part of the ceremony. I awarded the scouts Webelos pins at the den meeting so they didn't have to wait so long for the award between monthly meetings. They were presented with the card at the monthly Pack meeting for honor by the other dens. I agree with keeping your girls together, but for ease of making a FUN program with fewer volunteers, I would combine all three patrols together in one Den. They can function as a patrol during the whole meeting while still functioning as a den. Oh, I also ran three 90 minute meetings each month instead of four 60 minute meetings. Just worked out easier to plan and less stressful to operate Those were ideas that helped me with that many scouts. We had a lot of fun. Barry

I wasn't the poster who suggested weeding out. But, there are several posters who have said basically the same thing, not by the traditional scouters wanting the go back to the old ways, but by the progressive members looking to bring scouting into a better light. Neither are bad, but balance is required to come up with positive ideas. Because of my experience, I was often called by districts and council to visit and counsel struggling programs. In just about all cases, those programs struggled because they did not understand BSA mission or the process toward that mission. Improving a unit performance starts at understand the goals and the program process toward those goals. As I said, units that choose not to follow the program are generally the ones the eventually drop out or change leadership. But, keep in mind, unit performance is very dynamic in a council with 30 Cub units an 15 troops. New units learning the ways to improve while, old units are slowing dying because they are to burned out to care. To some degree, weeding out takes care of itself. The problem is that it doesn't happen fast enough, mostly because Councils don't like to loose units. Barry

Weed out is a bad use of terms. JTE or something similar shows the unit adults where they need to improve. In most cases, units that don't improve don't last long anyway. But, some further training could help units that struggle to understand the principles of the list. And, as far as know, data on these list wasn't collected. But, that would be a indicator to learn and react to trends. Barry

Good posts. I agree with all of it, but you left out one very big problem that is getting in the way of running good units; Top Heavy programs that burn out the adults. As evidence to how National suffocates it's members. National required additional adults to the tiger program in 2000 that resulted in lower Cub membership, which resulted in lower Troop member around 2005. 2005 is the age the Tigers in 2000 would have joined Troops. National needs to reduce the management requirements for adults, especially in the Cub program. Taking Tigers out of the Cub program would be a good start to reduce the program considerably, and take a year out of the five years expected from adults. Barry

They already do it with programs like Journey to Excellence. A troop doesn't have to be ranked against other troops to know how it performs to the BSA expectations when they are asked to thank themselves on the list. We called it something different 25 years ago, but the Journey to Excellence is a good shoehorn to guiding troop programs. I also think the Tour Permit worked for the same reason because it gave expectations to insure the troop traveled safely and had properly trained scouters for the activities planned. National gave that up, I don't know why, but it was clear enough that we handed the responsibility of checklist to the PLC. The SPL the responsibility to show to authorities when required. Barry

Good response, thanks. Let me start with your uniform statement; I'm not sure where the negative uniform in the youths eyes is comi8ng from. My observation is more the adults that think it negative and project that on the youths. But, when talking to most scouts, they don't mind the uniform, and in fact, the girls scouts new uniform has gone back to the more traditional scouting style. All that being said to point out that we hear a lot of adults perceptions of the program that don't seem to hold true in the general perception. Either the perception is a personal bias, or it's a local bias. But, the mis-perceptions don't contribute to discussion of changes that would have real positive impact to scouting. I'm in and industry where innovation is part of my responsibility, based on our company mission. Human instinct is to always build a better mousetrap. But, I found that more often than not, humans want to fix what's not broken, and often get away from the mission. The mission of the BSA as proposed by National "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.". That is really a pretty basic mission, but it has complicated process, which is basically giving individual responsibilities of directing other individuals so that they learn from their decisions of how applications of moral and ethical directions, or non ethical and moral directions, result in the actions of others. To say replacing of current methods with real innovation is ignoring the real world performance of current methods. Do they need replacing? Why? How does innovation compare? Exactly. But, how does camping not inspire youth? Or, are we just doing it differently than was designed in the first place. Inspiration comes from the managers of the program. One of the main reason's I have observed were programs get derailed is when the adults are inspiring a program other than designed scouting program. We have a SM on this for a number of years that Scout-mastered THREE failed programs before he disappeared from the forum. Most of us could see his failure even while he passionate brag about his personal leadership techniques to his scouts. He was very inspirational and charismatic, but he wasn't doing the program as provided and actually drove the scouts away. OK, how does Battlebots give individuals responsibilities of directing other individuals so that they learn from their decisions of how applications of moral and ethical directions, or non ethical and moral directions, result in the actions of others? As a youth sports coach and a Soccer Coach for 10 years, I struggle to see how a sport can have the same mission as scouting because the nature of the activity doesn't encourage players to make group decisions to the degree where they learn a moral and ethical lesson. Scouting is not sports or visa versa. Marketing has to be applied correctly. When I was a Scouter, I had to put on my Scouter hat. When I was a coach, I had to put on my coach hat. As much as I tried to make them one hat, I couldn't. Not to say scouts can play sports during scouting activities, but that isn't the same thing. Our scouts played A LOT of sports in their scouting activities. The more creative scouts also play music, acted, and taught. But in the end, they needed the outdoor program to practice character building in the patrol. Scouting already encourages many activities that aren't outdoor activities to add fun and personal accomplishment. They just aren't the primary activity of making mortal and ethical decisions. The real concern I have with your post is how the indoor activities work toward the BSA mission to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.". I think to answer that question, you first have understand how the BSA program design accomplishes that mission. Then, you can design your new innovative program to enhance the same mission. I have said here before that when the adults have a good understanding of the principles for how the scouting program builds character, they can tune any program to achieve the same performance. I just don't that yet in STEM. Barry

This is a very interesting and unexpected response. I have said for several years now that the trend of scouting is going toward an after school type program. As a result of the BSA pulling in the family and getting away from the patrol method, an after school program is the natural result. I don't believe females are more prepared for STEM, just more comfortable with the STEM environment than outdoor camping. I believe, Men, and women, who are uncomfortable with outdoors choose the STEM because the environment for teaching STEM is more comfortable, and perceived safer. And I wonder if this is what has happened to the professionals at National. I don't mind STEM in scouting for adding more variety like Merit Badges to give scouts the opportunities to meet people and learn skills. But when STEM replaces the objectives of patrol method, then it's not scouting. It is school and the opposite of scouting. STEM isn't developing characters skills to prepare men and women for life. STEM almost feels like a MB program without the stress of advancement. Of course not all female leaders are uncomfortable with the outdoors, and of course many male leaders are uncomfortable with the outdoors, but if the adults of this culture are more uncomfortable with the outdoors, then no wonder family scouting and STEM is becoming more popular. No wonder scouting is turning into an after school program. And maybe that is a good thing in some cases, but it looses the main point of learning through making decisions. Scouting is about preparing men and women to make moral and ethical decisions using the Scout Law for life. The patrol method does that by putting scouts in positions to make decisions about the actions of the other scouts. I don't see STEM doing that. This post isn't about men and women, I think my observation was more the result of the huge influx of female leaders in a program that was led by men for several decades. I'm not anti female adult leaders, but I am pragmatic. Barry

This interesting reading. My observations are that when female leader are given direction over a troop program. They tend to steer away from outdoors. I’m wondering if that is why STEM is being pushed so hard. Barry

I remember some folks in 1995 stating the BSA was loosing membership because they didn't accept gays. They had nothing to prove their statement, mostly because where would they find it, even if it was true. Of couse those of us working in Membership had a different opinion. I've been out a while, but I could show where the drop out numbers were going and it had nothing to do with CO responsibilities or gays. Of course culture expectations have changed a bit, but our data was so pronounced that I'm confident CO responsibilities and gays are still way low, if not completely off the radar as reasoning for membership drop. So, when someone starts stating the BSA is loosing numbers because of some out-there reasoning that can't be proven, how much can we trust the rest of what they say? Having a CO as being responsible for a unit is more layers of responsibility, not less. Both council and District spend a great deal of time supervising over the units to remind them of their expected responsibilities. Many CORs don't get to involved because the responsibility is already being taken care of. I heard more complaints of to-much overseeing by the CO, Council and District than the other way around. But, I know Councils put a great deal of effort in keeping units up to speed on their responsibilities. And when comparing with other youth organizations, my experience is the BSA is active and any of them. I was never approached as a coach of counselor to discuss the expected actions to insure youth safety like I was a Scout Leader. I think folks are trying to hard to impress their personal reasoning of where points of failure exist on this subject. There may have to be some changes put in the system, but it will be purely for show to satisfy the lawyers, not for lack of performance. Barry

Interesting, I was reading the thread about CO support of units and it reminded me of the struggle we had with our CO. It started out good, but we started seeing a trend toward less support. That was OK so long as we had facilities for meetings, but, then the CO started charging us for meetings outside of regular weekly troop meetings. Then they started asking us to pay for damages caused by our scouts. Turns out it was the Girls Scouts and the church youth groups causing the damage, but that didn't stop them from putting tighter requirements on us. After several failed attempts to improve our relationship with the CO, we finally told the DE to get ready because we were searching for a new CO to get away from hostility of the present CO hostile. Our troop was the fastest growing troop in the council at the time, so our request lit a fire under council. Long story short, we were told the pastor of the church had a bad experience with his son in Cub Scouts some 20 years earlier and he didn't want the BSA in his church. We also learned he was an activist for gay ministers, but they didn't say how much that may have contributed to the hostility. I don't know the politics or details for changing the relationship with the scouts, but the church committee gave us a new COR and a promise of good relations. I was told that the bigger financial contributors of the church may have had some influence. And, not to long after, the church got a new pastor. Rumor was the church didn't like his activism. But, who knows, church politics are complicated. His attempt to kill the BSA in the church backfired because the COR, true to his word of support, started a new Cub program in the church. The church was also recognized a couple of years later with having the biggest older scout program in the council. That was an example of what someone with influence and a sour taste for the BSA can do to a scouting unit. Barry

My veterinarian told me the reason chose veterinary school instead of med school was he didn't want to deal with people. Little did he know when he made that decision that pet owners can be more demanding and unreasonable. Very few volunteers think about the difficulties of working with other volunteers, and parents. We just believe everyone is this thing for the same reason and all of us will get along. My wife logged that we got at least one parent complaint call every night for the first two years I was Scoutmaster. Oh, I have many many other stories of adults acting badly from the Cub days to my volunteering at the council level. I just used the Scoutmaster example for reference. I don't regret my time as a Scout Leader because I have so many many wonderful memories. But, I have many bad ones too. For some of us, the passion pushed us through. But, there certainly aren't enough of us to say that. Thank you for all your giving. Barry

We had one campout where one patrol only had one scout. It wasn't planned that way, but the other scouts bailed out Friday of that week for one reason or another. The scout had the patrol food, so he said, why not. He got a big ovation from the other patrols at the end of camp before loading cars to go home. He had a lot of fun. Barry

OK, it's your troop. Also, they don't have to do big activities. Meeting for a movie (covid?) might be fun to organize. As I said, its about quality of the BSA mission. Taking a break my be just that. Barry

Change, or not, is really about program quality. Not, trying to conform with lacking resources. Can you improve on "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law" by being more active in the summer months. I don't know, but, if let's say you wanted to try a month where the patrols propose, plan and run a patrol campout, or activity, giving them more practice taking full autonomy of their program, as an attempt to give them more opportunities to make ethical and moral decisions, then likely you will not meet a lot of resistance. True, summer brings the challenges of family vacations, but a patrol of 2 (or even one) can have a really great experience planning their own campout. And, in our own experiences where we needed more adults for YP requirements, we have asked non leader parents to tag along, suggesting to both the scouts and their parents that the scouts take good care of the parents because they don't have clue. My 37 year old son was reflecting last week on a similar experience his patrol had at Philmont when he was a scout. It was summer, their crew needed adults and none of the leaders where available because we had three HA crews that summer. We talked two parents on going on an experience of a lifetime where their sons. .Everyone had a great time. I not telling you what to do, you know your troop best. But, there are ideas if you want to consider trying more program in the summer. Ironically, our scouts wanted to be SPL in the summer because we let them have total leadership over the troop at summer camp. It is a full time job and they wear themselves out, but they also value the experience, and we pay their way to camp. But, on the other side of that, the ASPL gets the opportunity to be SPL for a few weeks while the SPL takes a well deserved break. And, other scouts get opportunities to lead with the High Adventure activities as well as the troop. Lots of opportunities for scouts to get some leadership experience. Even in a minimal program. Barry

Always trying to seal the deal by throwing out the self-righteous card. I guess if that is the only way you can get the last word, well, good for you. What value did that last sentence add to the rest of the post. There is no integrity in leaning on using shame to try and get your way. You say you support the BSA, but you can't even present your opinion without dishonest bias against the BSA. Something doesn't fit here. I struggle with all this because data it doesn't have the balance of real life to show an outsider how managing a scout unit really works. 20 years ago volunteers were required to take training every 3 years. So how does the 66% fit in that. Or are volunteers required to train every year now? As I said before, how many times does one need training when they practice a skill everyday. OK, I guess to keep the lawyers and CynicalScouters at bay, blind repetitive actions to check off boxes will have will be the standard order of volunteer scouters, and even parents. But, here on this forum, we can still be honest and talk about real life in scouting unit without feeling threatened. Negligent? Barry

And this is the reasoning where we disagree. You are suggesting the impossible. The BSA set the system in place to protect the kids. But, they aren't negligent for the bad actions of individuals. Barry

True, but it could be the death nail. And, honestly, your response suggest how far you are willing to let this go. You are probably justified, I wouldn't go there anymore. You are victim looking for restoration of your life. Plain and simple. You can't control the system trying to work that out, so don't get in the habit of justifying the wreckage. Surly you can respect our passion for the mission and vision of the program and the impact of its loss to our culture. I'm not saying our pain is greater than your's, but the inequity of how it's being resolved just feels immoral. Barry

The organization was struggling before the law suit. There is a risk. But if you want to get more into details, lets say at the very least the program as intended by the current mission and vision is at risk. Barry

Your basic reasoning all along has been the numbers. Many of us were personally solicited (pushed) by law firms to join the law suit. When everyone is asked to join, the numbers become meaningless against my experience. Barry