Eagledad

Yes, it is difficult. The struggle even for commissioners is knowing when to give unit leaders some rope to make their program. We had a very good commissioner with a lot of experience, but he wasn't as boy run as I wanted the our program, so we had some difficult discussions. However, he always let me try my ideas to see how they worked out. Every leader has a different vision and style, so the commissioner has to have some patience. to know when to guide, or just watch. Commissioners need to be good at understanding the program and the BSA Guidelines for running the program. Units get in trouble when they make up their own rules and guidelines, so the commissioners need to inform and correct to keep units within boundaries. Our commissioner shined with committee and their functions. His Scoutmaster experience gave him the knowledge to know how to balance the program for, and with, the Scoutmaster. I believe success with commissioners starts with a good District Commissioner because they are the teachers and mentors of the commissioners. Start with that person, the rest will follow. It's nice to hear about units who get lucky with getting good commissioners, but we want to hear the bragging of districts with a good commissioner corp. Barry

Thanks I ran into one of my Eagle scouts a few years ago. He had two kids by that time. I don't remember how we got on the subject, but he told me that one of my SM Minutes made a big difference in life and probably why he got his Eagle. The story I told was similar to this one, a hero that made a difference. I learned over the years that boys dream of being hero's. I don't know if girls have the same dreams because I don't remember my daughter running around pretending to be hero so much as she pretended to be the princess. I taught in the adult courses that the better troops are the ones where scouts have the freedom to live their dreams. I can't say that my Eagle scout was trying to be a hero, but he says the hero was part of his motivation. Not only should we encourage the troop to be a place to live dreams, we should give more examples of heros. Not just military heros, but heros of culture, heros of character and heros of humanity. Boys want to be heros, we can show them how. Thanks again RememberShiff Barry

The program focuses on a source of morality, but beating over the head is dependent on the unit leaders. If that is your experience, then your CO is probably religious and has a higher priority on religion. But, most units, even religious ones, don't beat it over the heads. No, that is living a servant life. Not the same thing. The spirit, god, God, rock, or whatever is the source. That doesn't mean a scout will connect the oath and law to a spiritual life, most don't. The program develops a servant habits, which are habits of a ethical and moral lifestyle. The scout will have to eventually give credit to the source. Why? I would guess 80% of Eagles (80% of adults) are in that very place at age 18.. And, what if the Eagle decides to be an Ashiest after a time? He had the experience, was a great scout and set a good example for other scouts, He just couldn't make the connection to scout spirit and god. By the way, I know several Eagles who turn atheist as adults. Each one told me they wished they could be a leader, but they didn't want to set that kind of example. I find that very much in the Scout Spirit. Barry

Funny thing is membership exclusion is really about adults. I had numerous scouts who either one or both parents where ashiest or gay, but they wanted their kids to make that decision on their own when they had some life's experiences. Scouting was part of the life's experiences they wanted for their kids. When the gay activist started to target the BSA, they found quickly they weren't getting any traction with petitioning gay adults. So, they changed tactics and used gay scouts as their target, which worked. But, it was the adults the program didn't want anyway. A program with the principles of giving youth an experience in developing the habits of morality has to present itself on the bases of morality. Most, if not all, scouters I knew had no trouble with scouts who weren't sure about god experiencing the scout program. It's only activist who turned that around and demonized scouters. But, I don't see god being optional in a moral themed program. Barry

First off, I'm not cutting out text to change the narrative. Seems we need to say that these days. Two questions come to mind with your post qwazse. First, my observation is that parents for 90 percent of the scouts make the choice for the kids to join scouting. So, I'm wondering how fits in your theory. Second, while I can see the idea of a Federation of Scouting happening, I think that is many years down the road. A lot more options for girls than boys at this moment. A good group of visionary professionals could get this ball rolling in the BSA. But, I haven't seen good professionalism from National in the last 30 years. Your idea will have to come from somewhere else. Leaving the discussion kind of back to Eagle1993's perspective. Barry

That's an interesting suggestion. Barry

Hmm, you only have to look at the Canadian Scouts to see how total inclusion will effect the membership numbers. Last I heard was that Canadian Scouts was at 40% to 50% of the organizations membership before going total inclusive 20 years previous. Your post suggest that a total inclusive program would have little effect on the core principles that drive the BSA Vision and Mission. But as others have mentioned, religion is a core principle of the BSA program. Looking at the Canadian Scouts, giving up on some core principles will not improve membership. much. In fact, the risk is membership will likely fall even more. So, is increasing membership really that important? Or is the desire really just having a totally inclusive youth program? That is not to say we shouldn't discuss these things, but maybe the discussion should consider what sacrifices folks are willing to accept to be more inclusive. Barry

I'm not sure what you mean, and maybe you aren't in a good position for a pragmatic discussion anyway. From the very beginning of this thing, most of us knew the BSA would pay. It's a litigious society. But, the question of, does the BSA organization deserve the blame, will be a popular discussion topic for a long time. It's a gnat the size of an elephant. And by the way, I don't cut off parts of text for some kind of advantage. Not my style. I respond honestly to what I think the poster is saying. If I misunderstood the poster, I'm mature enough to admit my mistake. I desire an honest discussion and respect honest contributions. Some folks get annoyed at me because I call them out when I think they aren't being respectful, or truthful. I only cut off text to highlight the specific part of the quote to which I am responding. Barry

"the court and laws are holding them accountable to a standard of negligence and violation of their duty to care, hire, protect, and, etc." Yes, that. Strang! You sure are taking big swipes at that gnat. My post was just a general explanation for why so many want the discussion. "hurtful or harmful about upping the ante with YPT and YP efforts". What? Barry

This will be a popular topic as long as the BSA organization is blamed for the abuses. Barry

You can rest easy, I'm here. Now, what's this about giving animals parking tickets. We need to get on top this. Barry

Really! This is very offensive. I’d like to see your polling data. Barry

Of course, your reputation for self-righteous posts proceeds this post. Condescending implications are immature at the very least and rarely ever produce positive outcomes. In fact, it usually produces the opposite results. There is no doubt you would be jumping into anyone treating your kids what you claim you are justified doing on this list. Scouting is exactly about teaching scouts how to use the scout law for giving a personal perspective without being demeaning or insulting. Intellectual discussions requires to first respect the other persons and presenting oneself without unwelcoming words or tone. Neutral or welcome discourse requires practice, but the person must want to practice first. Barry

When a poster threatens, DARES, or intimidate the list to agree with their opinion, then something has to change. Barry

Yep, adults require as much, if not more, teaching than the scouts. I taught a boy run and patrol method class in our council for two years. Let's require something like that for both the SM and CC. We kind of have the camp that Fred describes. While troops can camp there (we sent our patrols there when they wanted to camp without adults back in the day), the facilities were built with teaching in mind. It also has a COPES course and Climbing/Rappelling tower and pool for unit activities and adult certifications. I agree with Eagle94's concerns, I'm sure Fred does also, but this camp idea is worth discussing in an age of Helicopter Parenting/Leading to hammer out ideas and restrictions. I certainly like MattRs suggestions of kicking the adults out of the Scouts' camping area. OK, my words, but Patrol Method Camp Rules can force patrol method in the safe area of camp where the adults give the scouts more independence. This could turn into an instructional and Patrol method teaching/practice/tuning camp where Troops are required to attend at least once a year to get the adults, and maybe PLCs, back up to speed. I used to preach to council that the best quality control of multiple units (Districts) is training. Training is the one place all the units learn the same specific expectations to running their program. Sometimes they were taught wrong, but that is a difference subject. Most folks who have been here a while on the forum know that my greatest fear of everything going on with the BSA in the last few years is driving the BSA into a afterschool daycare program. Patrol Method is loosing its following because fewer adults have no experience and don't understand or trust it. Maybe this camp is the way to protect Patrol Method and enhance it's performance by training all the adults of it's methods and benefits. I don't know, just kicking a few thoughts around. Barry

So, a little advice from someone who has this experience with 16 scouts. I ran the meeting basically like a troop where the two patrols were still part of one program. Running seperate dens requires at least twice the number of volunteers. easier to find one leader with three assistance than 3 leaders and 3 assistance. As a SM, I personally don't believe scouts need all that much Patrol Method experience to be successful in the troop. Our troop has a very good program to get new scouts up to speed. I instead believe they need confidence for a troop programs. And they way I did that was let Webelos IIs run all the pack Opening and closing ceremonies. I also required two skits from the Webelos and two run-on skits. My objective with the ceremonies and skits was getting Webelos comfortable performing in front of other scouts. The Webelos were also required to arrive 30 minutes early to set up chairs for the troop meetings. Service. I asked a Tiger/Wolf?bear den assist the Webelos with the ceremony. In fact, the other dens carried the flags while the Webelos led the ceremony. That got the younger scouts used to getting in front of crowds, and the Webelos used to teaching and leading. As far the Den meetings, one of the two den-patrols was assigned and responsible for the opening and closing ceremony. I asked them to run it like a troop with reciting prayer, Pledge of a Elegance, Oath and Law. I DID NOT judge their performance on reciting the Oath or Law. They will eventually get that on their own and it takes the stress out of leading the ceremony. After the first few meetings, the scouts know enough to assign the positions of calling out and holding the flag, and the parts of the ceremony itself. You will be surprised they can plan the ceremony in 30 seconds. Confidence. As I said, don't be to critical on performance until it is obvious they should be doing better. After the opening., we typically ran two activities since we had 16 scouts. We would run each activity about 20 mintues, then switch the patrols to the other activity. You can be creative how you want to do this, but the scouts liked it because if one activity is boring the other could make up for it. No activity should be boring, but I asked parents to plan and run the activities and some where better than others. Then the Scouts had games for 20 mintues, which the love, and then we would do awards and closing ceremony. I asked the parents to shup a few minutes early to watch the awards part of the ceremony. I awarded the scouts Webelos pins at the den meeting so they didn't have to wait so long for the award between monthly meetings. They were presented with the card at the monthly Pack meeting for honor by the other dens. I agree with keeping your girls together, but for ease of making a FUN program with fewer volunteers, I would combine all three patrols together in one Den. They can function as a patrol during the whole meeting while still functioning as a den. Oh, I also ran three 90 minute meetings each month instead of four 60 minute meetings. Just worked out easier to plan and less stressful to operate Those were ideas that helped me with that many scouts. We had a lot of fun. Barry

I wasn't the poster who suggested weeding out. But, there are several posters who have said basically the same thing, not by the traditional scouters wanting the go back to the old ways, but by the progressive members looking to bring scouting into a better light. Neither are bad, but balance is required to come up with positive ideas. Because of my experience, I was often called by districts and council to visit and counsel struggling programs. In just about all cases, those programs struggled because they did not understand BSA mission or the process toward that mission. Improving a unit performance starts at understand the goals and the program process toward those goals. As I said, units that choose not to follow the program are generally the ones the eventually drop out or change leadership. But, keep in mind, unit performance is very dynamic in a council with 30 Cub units an 15 troops. New units learning the ways to improve while, old units are slowing dying because they are to burned out to care. To some degree, weeding out takes care of itself. The problem is that it doesn't happen fast enough, mostly because Councils don't like to loose units. Barry

Weed out is a bad use of terms. JTE or something similar shows the unit adults where they need to improve. In most cases, units that don't improve don't last long anyway. But, some further training could help units that struggle to understand the principles of the list. And, as far as know, data on these list wasn't collected. But, that would be a indicator to learn and react to trends. Barry

Good posts. I agree with all of it, but you left out one very big problem that is getting in the way of running good units; Top Heavy programs that burn out the adults. As evidence to how National suffocates it's members. National required additional adults to the tiger program in 2000 that resulted in lower Cub membership, which resulted in lower Troop member around 2005. 2005 is the age the Tigers in 2000 would have joined Troops. National needs to reduce the management requirements for adults, especially in the Cub program. Taking Tigers out of the Cub program would be a good start to reduce the program considerably, and take a year out of the five years expected from adults. Barry

They already do it with programs like Journey to Excellence. A troop doesn't have to be ranked against other troops to know how it performs to the BSA expectations when they are asked to thank themselves on the list. We called it something different 25 years ago, but the Journey to Excellence is a good shoehorn to guiding troop programs. I also think the Tour Permit worked for the same reason because it gave expectations to insure the troop traveled safely and had properly trained scouters for the activities planned. National gave that up, I don't know why, but it was clear enough that we handed the responsibility of checklist to the PLC. The SPL the responsibility to show to authorities when required. Barry

Good response, thanks. Let me start with your uniform statement; I'm not sure where the negative uniform in the youths eyes is comi8ng from. My observation is more the adults that think it negative and project that on the youths. But, when talking to most scouts, they don't mind the uniform, and in fact, the girls scouts new uniform has gone back to the more traditional scouting style. All that being said to point out that we hear a lot of adults perceptions of the program that don't seem to hold true in the general perception. Either the perception is a personal bias, or it's a local bias. But, the mis-perceptions don't contribute to discussion of changes that would have real positive impact to scouting. I'm in and industry where innovation is part of my responsibility, based on our company mission. Human instinct is to always build a better mousetrap. But, I found that more often than not, humans want to fix what's not broken, and often get away from the mission. The mission of the BSA as proposed by National "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.". That is really a pretty basic mission, but it has complicated process, which is basically giving individual responsibilities of directing other individuals so that they learn from their decisions of how applications of moral and ethical directions, or non ethical and moral directions, result in the actions of others. To say replacing of current methods with real innovation is ignoring the real world performance of current methods. Do they need replacing? Why? How does innovation compare? Exactly. But, how does camping not inspire youth? Or, are we just doing it differently than was designed in the first place. Inspiration comes from the managers of the program. One of the main reason's I have observed were programs get derailed is when the adults are inspiring a program other than designed scouting program. We have a SM on this for a number of years that Scout-mastered THREE failed programs before he disappeared from the forum. Most of us could see his failure even while he passionate brag about his personal leadership techniques to his scouts. He was very inspirational and charismatic, but he wasn't doing the program as provided and actually drove the scouts away. OK, how does Battlebots give individuals responsibilities of directing other individuals so that they learn from their decisions of how applications of moral and ethical directions, or non ethical and moral directions, result in the actions of others? As a youth sports coach and a Soccer Coach for 10 years, I struggle to see how a sport can have the same mission as scouting because the nature of the activity doesn't encourage players to make group decisions to the degree where they learn a moral and ethical lesson. Scouting is not sports or visa versa. Marketing has to be applied correctly. When I was a Scouter, I had to put on my Scouter hat. When I was a coach, I had to put on my coach hat. As much as I tried to make them one hat, I couldn't. Not to say scouts can play sports during scouting activities, but that isn't the same thing. Our scouts played A LOT of sports in their scouting activities. The more creative scouts also play music, acted, and taught. But in the end, they needed the outdoor program to practice character building in the patrol. Scouting already encourages many activities that aren't outdoor activities to add fun and personal accomplishment. They just aren't the primary activity of making mortal and ethical decisions. The real concern I have with your post is how the indoor activities work toward the BSA mission to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.". I think to answer that question, you first have understand how the BSA program design accomplishes that mission. Then, you can design your new innovative program to enhance the same mission. I have said here before that when the adults have a good understanding of the principles for how the scouting program builds character, they can tune any program to achieve the same performance. I just don't that yet in STEM. Barry

This is a very interesting and unexpected response. I have said for several years now that the trend of scouting is going toward an after school type program. As a result of the BSA pulling in the family and getting away from the patrol method, an after school program is the natural result. I don't believe females are more prepared for STEM, just more comfortable with the STEM environment than outdoor camping. I believe, Men, and women, who are uncomfortable with outdoors choose the STEM because the environment for teaching STEM is more comfortable, and perceived safer. And I wonder if this is what has happened to the professionals at National. I don't mind STEM in scouting for adding more variety like Merit Badges to give scouts the opportunities to meet people and learn skills. But when STEM replaces the objectives of patrol method, then it's not scouting. It is school and the opposite of scouting. STEM isn't developing characters skills to prepare men and women for life. STEM almost feels like a MB program without the stress of advancement. Of course not all female leaders are uncomfortable with the outdoors, and of course many male leaders are uncomfortable with the outdoors, but if the adults of this culture are more uncomfortable with the outdoors, then no wonder family scouting and STEM is becoming more popular. No wonder scouting is turning into an after school program. And maybe that is a good thing in some cases, but it looses the main point of learning through making decisions. Scouting is about preparing men and women to make moral and ethical decisions using the Scout Law for life. The patrol method does that by putting scouts in positions to make decisions about the actions of the other scouts. I don't see STEM doing that. This post isn't about men and women, I think my observation was more the result of the huge influx of female leaders in a program that was led by men for several decades. I'm not anti female adult leaders, but I am pragmatic. Barry

This interesting reading. My observations are that when female leader are given direction over a troop program. They tend to steer away from outdoors. I’m wondering if that is why STEM is being pushed so hard. Barry

I remember some folks in 1995 stating the BSA was loosing membership because they didn't accept gays. They had nothing to prove their statement, mostly because where would they find it, even if it was true. Of couse those of us working in Membership had a different opinion. I've been out a while, but I could show where the drop out numbers were going and it had nothing to do with CO responsibilities or gays. Of course culture expectations have changed a bit, but our data was so pronounced that I'm confident CO responsibilities and gays are still way low, if not completely off the radar as reasoning for membership drop. So, when someone starts stating the BSA is loosing numbers because of some out-there reasoning that can't be proven, how much can we trust the rest of what they say? Having a CO as being responsible for a unit is more layers of responsibility, not less. Both council and District spend a great deal of time supervising over the units to remind them of their expected responsibilities. Many CORs don't get to involved because the responsibility is already being taken care of. I heard more complaints of to-much overseeing by the CO, Council and District than the other way around. But, I know Councils put a great deal of effort in keeping units up to speed on their responsibilities. And when comparing with other youth organizations, my experience is the BSA is active and any of them. I was never approached as a coach of counselor to discuss the expected actions to insure youth safety like I was a Scout Leader. I think folks are trying to hard to impress their personal reasoning of where points of failure exist on this subject. There may have to be some changes put in the system, but it will be purely for show to satisfy the lawyers, not for lack of performance. Barry

Interesting, I was reading the thread about CO support of units and it reminded me of the struggle we had with our CO. It started out good, but we started seeing a trend toward less support. That was OK so long as we had facilities for meetings, but, then the CO started charging us for meetings outside of regular weekly troop meetings. Then they started asking us to pay for damages caused by our scouts. Turns out it was the Girls Scouts and the church youth groups causing the damage, but that didn't stop them from putting tighter requirements on us. After several failed attempts to improve our relationship with the CO, we finally told the DE to get ready because we were searching for a new CO to get away from hostility of the present CO hostile. Our troop was the fastest growing troop in the council at the time, so our request lit a fire under council. Long story short, we were told the pastor of the church had a bad experience with his son in Cub Scouts some 20 years earlier and he didn't want the BSA in his church. We also learned he was an activist for gay ministers, but they didn't say how much that may have contributed to the hostility. I don't know the politics or details for changing the relationship with the scouts, but the church committee gave us a new COR and a promise of good relations. I was told that the bigger financial contributors of the church may have had some influence. And, not to long after, the church got a new pastor. Rumor was the church didn't like his activism. But, who knows, church politics are complicated. His attempt to kill the BSA in the church backfired because the COR, true to his word of support, started a new Cub program in the church. The church was also recognized a couple of years later with having the biggest older scout program in the council. That was an example of what someone with influence and a sour taste for the BSA can do to a scouting unit. Barry